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Non-Skating Officials => Working with Referees => Topic started by: Pinot Egregious on April 12, 2010, 04:06:53 pm

Title: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: Pinot Egregious on April 12, 2010, 04:06:53 pm
After working as penalty tracker at a recent bout for a team that has a large (3'x4') inside white board, a thought occurred to me.

Standard practice is to use simple hash marks to track purely the number of minor penalties for each skater. And usually a different kind or color of hash mark to track majors.

On boards where there is room enough to do so, I was thinking of having the white board person mark the actual penalty codes. This may not be quite as easy for the benches to read as the hash marks but it makes reconciliation easier.

I am one who like to reconcile frequently to make sure that the white board always reflects accurately and have frequently found instances where the number of has marks did not agree with the official tracking sheet. When all you have to go on is a generic hash mark, it requires the white board person to try and remember why a mark was added. Was it attributed to the wrong skater? Was it simply added in error? Was it the same call received from two different refs?

I realize that the tracker is the final authority in these matters and am in no way looking to shirk that responsibility. Just wondering what best practices are and what others thoughts/experiences are on this subject.
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: DayGlo Divine on April 13, 2010, 06:31:47 pm
After working as penalty tracker at a recent bout for a team that has a large (3'x4') inside white board, a thought occurred to me.

Standard practice is to use simple hash marks to track purely the number of minor penalties for each skater. And usually a different kind or color of hash mark to track majors.

On boards where there is room enough to do so, I was thinking of having the white board person mark the actual penalty codes. This may not be quite as easy for the benches to read as the hash marks but it makes reconciliation easier.

I am one who like to reconcile frequently to make sure that the white board always reflects accurately and have frequently found instances where the number of has marks did not agree with the official tracking sheet. When all you have to go on is a generic hash mark, it requires the white board person to try and remember why a mark was added. Was it attributed to the wrong skater? Was it simply added in error? Was it the same call received from two different refs?

I realize that the tracker is the final authority in these matters and am in no way looking to shirk that responsibility. Just wondering what best practices are and what others thoughts/experiences are on this subject.

In a bout situation, relaying both number and type of calls to the wrangler is impractical. It's fairly easy to go down the penalty sheet and relay the number of minors and majors each skater has to a whiteboard op between jams. "White 187, 3 minors, 2 majors. White 420, 1 minor, no majors. White 666, 3 minors, 4 majors." So on and so on. It takes a LOT more time to include calls: "White 187, 2 elbow minors, 1 track cut minor, 1 track cut major, 1 illegal procedure major" and so on. And it's really not necessary. The inside whiteboard exists so that skaters and bench coaches can know how many minors/majors/trips to the box they have and plan accordingly (sit out for a few jams, take an intentional fourth, and so on). It's not supposed to be a replacement for penalty sheets, and it doesn't need to be.
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: Pinot Egregious on April 16, 2010, 12:53:15 am
Thanks Day-Glo. I mostly agree with you however I've worked bouts where bench coaches came up to me at the half and asked to see what sort of penalties were being called against their team. (One would think they should be paying attention to that during play but I guess there's a lot going on.) My sense is that they'd really like that information sooner but at the half is their first opportunity to ask it without being in the way or interfering with tracking.

I wasn't thinking of it as a replacement to the tracking sheet by any means. Rather, just as a more detailed method of communication with the benches. I don't even know if it would work, hence the reason  posted here asking for feedback and thoughts. We've got a bunch of really smart people in this forum.
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: ExceptionHandler on April 16, 2010, 09:52:52 am
Telling teams that there are lots of elbows happening, for example, feels too much like coaching to me.
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: Darkjester on April 16, 2010, 03:48:30 pm
Verbally telling them? Possibly.. Unless the bout was getting ugly and you told BOTH teams "Hey, we're seeing a extraordinary amount of elbows... Tell your players to clean it up"

Posting the stat sheets? I'm not sure that would count as coaching as long as it was available to both teams.
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: Master Chief Sprinkles on April 17, 2010, 09:42:37 pm
I have had problems with coaches wondering what penalties have been called on their players. I have come to tell them at the beginning of the bout that if they have questions or want to know what their penalties were that I would tell them at half time and at the end or during a time if it was the reason they called the time out. So far that has gotten a positive response.

The penalty boards, I feel, are just for the coaches to figure out how many penalties their players have. What those penalties were shouldn't matter to them, because they can't get rid of them or change them. All the coaches and players should be able to do is strategically use the number of penalties and figure out their roster for the next jam.

When the bout is over. Then they may look at the sheets and see what their players have done and at practice try to fix those faults. 
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: Harry Spoter on April 18, 2010, 09:15:27 am
Telling teams that there are lots of elbows happening, for example, feels too much like coaching to me.

I wouldnt consider this coaching at all if a team wishes to see the penalty tracking sheets at the half time break i have know issue showing them the tracking sheets they can use that info anyway they possibly can ya know. Same as when you send skaters of for major penaltys the bench coach will watch for hand signals so if its something that constantly happens they can use the info how ever they like. I definatly agree with you there Dayglo transfering penalty codes will just be a nightmare you really wanna get the info on the boards fast so teams can see them when they need to.
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: Pat-E-Rat on May 05, 2010, 01:18:40 pm
Quote
It's not supposed to be a replacement for penalty sheets, and it doesn't need to be.

Those sheets have designated codes and spaces, not all teams/leagues have 3'x4' boards.  Also not all NSOs are accurate with coding.  Takig such action could lead to mega-disaster...
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: Rogzilla on May 07, 2010, 08:04:14 pm
Hello, everyone. I'm sure some of you know me already, but for those who don't, I'm currently head NSO for the Garden State Rollergirls, and we've been shoring up our officiating crew for what's going to be a busy season.

I recently picked up a nice big magnetic white board for the league that we will be using in the center island, and I was wondering if someone was doing their penalty board with magnets instead of markers with the goal of cutting down board update time, increasing legibility, and possibly abolishing the plague of marker-stained fingers.

Anyone?
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: FNZebra on May 07, 2010, 08:24:58 pm
I've seen it done. The magnets were rectangular, so that rosters could be printed on paper, cut, and temporarily glued on to the magnets.

You could also use color coded magnetic dots to represent minors, majors and trips to the box.
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: Jessticular Fortitude on May 07, 2010, 09:08:59 pm
I'd be concerned about magnets falling off, storing them in a way that makes them easy to get to quickly during a bout, but not so easy that they fall on the floor and become a safety hazard, and that they can be accidentally pushed next to a skater's name to which they don't belong. Then the board is wrong.

You need to find a balance between what is easy, legible, safe, and correct.
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: Stegoscorus on May 10, 2010, 11:20:03 pm
One of our NSOs printed the names on decal paper once, so we could easily move them around and reuse them.  Those turned out to get cruddy really easily, so we scrapped that plan.

What we use now is this: names and numbers are printed on regular paper, then affixed to foam core with low-tack spray adhesive.  (The paper and foam core are cut into rectangles, one for each name).  There are business card magnets on the back, which is how they stick to the white board. 

It was a tedious process to create them, but they're legible, easy to move around, and don't smudge.   They are removed and stored with care so they last all season.  If we have visiting teams' rosters with enough notice, we can usually make name panels for them as well. 
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: Scorey on May 11, 2010, 05:49:53 pm
I should add that it was cutting the foam board panels that was the tedious part: now that we have them, printing a brand new roster and slapping them on to panels takes an hour at most.

Another option is to print rosters on heavy card stock, tape them together with a 2mm gap between sheets, and add magnets to the back. Then you can slap the whole roster on to the board at once and fold it back up again nicely. That's what we did at North Centrals last year, and I think it went very well. The downside is that you can't update or re-order the roster once you've taped it together, which is why we use the individual panels at home.

I'm not in love with the idea of using magnets as counters. As mentioned earlier, there's a good chance they might fall off, and they'd be significantly slower to add or remove than a dry-erase hash mark.
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: DayGlo Divine on May 30, 2010, 08:01:41 pm
Hello, everyone. I'm sure some of you know me already, but for those who don't, I'm currently head NSO for the Garden State Rollergirls, and we've been shoring up our officiating crew for what's going to be a busy season.

I recently picked up a nice big magnetic white board for the league that we will be using in the center island, and I was wondering if someone was doing their penalty board with magnets instead of markers with the goal of cutting down board update time, increasing legibility, and possibly abolishing the plague of marker-stained fingers.

Anyone?

For intraleague bouts, we use magnets for skater numbers, but still mark the penalties with markers. Anything else is too risky. It's easy to bump magnets up or down when putting new ones on the board, and in really scrappy bouts (or towards the end of an average bout), there's always the chance that you'll run out because half the skaters are sitting on three minors or several trips to the box.
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: REFENSTEIN on June 29, 2010, 11:48:13 pm
At our last home bout we did mark the abbreviation of the penalty on the inside white board.  It wasn't a big deal for the trackers and wrangler since they had been cross trained in each others jobs.  They actually used it as a double check.  At one point having the abbreviations on the board helped us avoid repeating a penalty that had been called by two different referees.  We saw two idential abbreviations talked and realized that it had been duplicated.
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: Doctor Skatan on October 21, 2010, 05:42:14 pm
I started making full penalty boards for the league I train with & plan on using velcro to stick markers to the board. My prototype works fine with multiple violent removals. No sliding & no mess.
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: Hi Refinition on October 27, 2010, 05:53:41 am
I built for Arch Rival last season a light up penalty board.  I know many here on the huddle don't like such a thing but our refs and skaters love it.  They find it very easy to read how many minors and trips they have.  Yes, this has a greater chance of failure than a dry erase.  This is why I keep a whiteboard as a back up in the wings.

At scrimmages we use a large whiteboard that has a printed grid on it.  I've tried using the hash mark method but our ref find it easier to use the circle x method.  (Those that don't know it a minor = /, 2 minors = X, 3 minors = circle the X.)

I recently was at another league's first local bout and they did write down the penalty code for minors and trips.  I did explain that their system in time might have issues when a flood of calls starts coming in.  I did find it impressive how she was able to keep up.  She even would circle the trip in a different color when the skater was in the box to show the skaters has served her time. 
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: Poobah on January 23, 2011, 09:42:03 pm
I used to use metal magnets that a skater picked me up from a craft store. While they did make things very visible and never fell off, the whole process was simply slower than using a dry-erase marker.

That said, there are magnetic dry-erase boards. With those you can have the best of both worlds. Have your leagues's skaters names printed up in easy to read font on magnets and hand-write the other league's in. Mark penalties down in marker. I don't feel you need to put the penalty code on the penalty board, just something like Xs in boxes to denote the numbers of minors and penalty minutes (NOT MAJORS!).
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: REFENSTEIN on January 24, 2011, 01:20:15 am
Back in June 2010 I posted how we started putting the penalty codes on the white boards.  This season we have continued to do this.  Our penalty trackers and wranglers have the codes memorized.  We have cheat sheets posted on the back of the boards for visiting NSO's.  Our announcer can see both boards and now knows what minor each skater committed and can tell the crowd what happened.  Each bench is given a cheat sheet so they can see what their skaters did wrong.

From a ref perspective I can skate up to the board and look at it after the jam.  I know I called a cut and an elbow on black 69.  If I don't see an "X" and an "E" on that line then I know the tracker or wrangler missed it and it gets corrected.

The system is working well.

We have a projected penalty board system in the works but it is being held back due to funding.
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: Gimme Mo on January 24, 2011, 03:26:10 pm
Placing the actually penalty codes sounds like a good idea, but could lead to major problems in the long run.  We actually picked up a new way of marking our majors during the ref clinic held in Memphis last summer, and I think it was DJ Jazzy Ref who brought this up (Panti, Wood, Seer, Knot, could someone verify that for me, trying to give credit where it's due); the words "FOUL OUT" consist of exactly 7 letters.  For each major/box trip incurred, a letter is added.  Once you see FOULOUT, that skater is gone.  Its an easy visual for both the skaters and coaches.  As for minors, we do a circled x for minors; 1st minor - one slash, 2nd minor - another slash, 3rd minor - the X is circled.  Again, and easy visual representation that the skaters and coaches can see.
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: SeerSin on January 24, 2011, 05:59:20 pm
I can't speak for who came up with the system since I first saw it in Memphis. But it's a good system and takes about 15 seconds to get the hang of it.
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: rheffbutler on January 24, 2011, 06:30:24 pm
I built for Arch Rival last season a light up penalty board.  I know many here on the huddle don't like such a thing but our refs and skaters love it.  They find it very easy to read how many minors and trips they have.  Yes, this has a greater chance of failure than a dry erase.  This is why I keep a whiteboard as a back up in the wings.

At scrimmages we use a large whiteboard that has a printed grid on it.  I've tried using the hash mark method but our ref find it easier to use the circle x method.  (Those that don't know it a minor = /, 2 minors = X, 3 minors = circle the X.)

I recently was at another league's first local bout and they did write down the penalty code for minors and trips.  I did explain that their system in time might have issues when a flood of calls starts coming in.  I did find it impressive how she was able to keep up.  She even would circle the trip in a different color when the skater was in the box to show the skaters has served her time. 

I saw your board at your last double header and actually took pictures of it.  We would love to learn more on how you did it for our home bouts!
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: JoeXCore on January 24, 2011, 09:38:11 pm
I'm not keen on the FOUL OUT method as it takes a good bit of space and FOUL OUT and FOUL OU look very similar.

My preferred method is simply showing the number of penalty turns.

1 penalty turn = 1
2  = 2
... etc
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: mick hawkins on January 25, 2011, 01:25:25 am
...they did write down the penalty code for minors and trips.  I did explain that their system in time might have issues when a flood of calls starts coming in. 

we write the codes for both minors and minutes on the whiteboard

our whiteboarder doesn't seem to have any trouble keeping up
(neither does our single penalty tracker*)

I don't think it's any harder to write codes on the board than on the tracking sheet

some skaters say it's useful too
some fans like to take photos of the board at the end of the game, noting what the skaters were penalised for

*oh how i love a single penalty tracker
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: Shaun Ketterman on April 04, 2011, 04:06:03 am
I've been trying to devise a good system to tally the jams off that a player who causes a call-off by being injured must take.  I think I've come up with one that covers all concerns and wanted to see if anyone had any input or a better way of doing it.

1. The player is injured and the jam is called off.  The inside white board NSO marks 3 small Xs to the right of her number vertically.

2. As each jam passes an X is erased and replaced with an O.  After the last jam off passes, the player has 3 vertical Os to the right of her number.  These stay there in case a second jam is called off due to her injury.  They are erased at the end of the period.

3. If the player is injured again that period and the jam is called off, the 3 Os are filled in to signify she cannot return to the track for the rest of the period.  They are erased at the end of the period.
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: Insane Troll Logic on April 04, 2011, 11:57:59 pm
I'm not keen on the FOUL OUT method as it takes a good bit of space and FOUL OUT and FOUL OU look very similar.

If the skater is still in the game, then it's at FOULOU. If it reaches FOULOUT, the skater should be gone.

And Gimmie Mo, you probably did get it from Jazzy. To the best of my knowledge it was developed by the ARG ref, Freddie Chopin'.
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: mick hawkins on April 05, 2011, 12:29:30 am
I've been trying to devise a good system to tally the jams off that a player who causes a call-off by being injured must take.  I think I've come up with one that covers all concerns and wanted to see if anyone had any input or a better way of doing it.

I've given this job to line-up trackers.
They record when a jam is called off for a particular skater... and who's lining up on the track for each jam.

I figured they'd be in the best position to note when a skater was eligible to return after sitting out 3.
It's worked ok so far.

Only negative might be that they aren't in close proximity to the HR - in the event that an OTO needed to becalled at the last second to resolve an issue.
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: Invader Grim on April 25, 2011, 10:44:33 pm
My league used a full board at our last game, and we marked down major penalty codes.  We had quite an abundance of NSOs (we require our freshies to help NSO ;]), so it wasn't a hassle.  We were able to have two people assigned to the board, working with our wrangler and penalty trackers.  Everyone loved the board, especially the teams.  It was way easier for them to understand and see than a 3-board.
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: Major Wood on April 25, 2011, 10:47:51 pm
I haven't seen a 3 board in a VERY long time. If any of you are still using one, please, please, please, switch to a full penalty board.
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: Invader Grim on April 26, 2011, 12:11:15 am
Lots of leagues that I've worked for still use a 3 board (a SMALL 3 board, too!).  As soon as I started working as a penalty tracker and paying more attention to the 3 board, I thought it was kind of archaic.  I quickly had my league switch to a full board.  3 boards are just so hard to see, and kind of a pain to keep track of.  Plus I love how much more information is readily available with a full board.
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: DreadPirateRobyn on April 26, 2011, 03:43:43 pm
possibly abolishing the plague of marker-stained fingers.

Cheap, mismatched sweatbands or "magic gloves" with the fingertips cut off for bigger hands. Easy to wipe clean. No mess on fingers. And I wash them when I wash the rest of the gear.
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: Noah Tall on April 26, 2011, 09:22:28 pm
possibly abolishing the plague of marker-stained fingers.

Cheap, mismatched sweatbands or "magic gloves" with the fingertips cut off for bigger hands. Easy to wipe clean. No mess on fingers. And I wash them when I wash the rest of the gear.

What is this "wash" and "gear" you are using in the same sentence.  I'm afraid I don't understand.
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: DreadPirateRobyn on April 26, 2011, 10:34:10 pm

What is this "wash" and "gear" you are using in the same sentence.  I'm afraid I don't understand.



Heh. I am the child of a bleach-o-holic. I take the loaner gear (most of which is mine anyway since I am an Ebay addict) home about every other month to wash it. 2 full supersized loads each time. (I have a washer that will do 2 king comforters.)
I have started using sportswash from the hunting goods dept. If it is supposed to be good enough to make deer unable to smell you, I assume it kills derby stank at least well enough for 10 practices or so!




Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: FNZebra on April 26, 2011, 10:42:45 pm
http://www.getfunkout.com/

run by derby folk. stuff actually works.
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: high angle hell on April 26, 2011, 10:51:02 pm
Spankya from Vette City Roller Derby and I use that get funk out and it works pretty good. Washing them once week or every other helps keep you team mates from smelling your funk. Also, dont leave gear in the car bad for parts on skates and pads.
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: DreadPirateRobyn on April 26, 2011, 10:53:25 pm
http://www.getfunkout.com/

run by derby folk. stuff actually works.

Alas it is much more expensive. (And I have really weird allergies, so I have to be careful about what I use on my gear.)
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: Darkjester on April 27, 2011, 04:23:51 am
Check Walmart or Winn Dixie if you have them for Fresh Step Kitty Litter w/Crystals or the Gel Silica Crystals themselves (If you can find them).  Put them in a sock, tie the end, and put them in your skate bag. The gel silica will soak up the excess humidity.
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: Stegoscorus on May 01, 2011, 12:49:25 am
Does your gear not smell like kitty litter???

Anyway, buy these:
http://www.etsy.com/listing/68234916/set-of-3-odor-and-moisture-absorbing?ref=sr_gallery_2&ga_search_query=cedar+roller+derby&ga_search_type=handmade&ga_facet=handmade

And follow the link to her blog to read about why.
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: aksk8trooper on May 01, 2011, 07:59:57 am
Wow, touching story.  Good post.
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: Darkjester on May 03, 2011, 12:36:37 am
Nope, smells like fresh sweet goodness :-)
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: JoeXCore on August 31, 2011, 10:34:57 pm

3. If the player is injured again that period and the jam is called off, the 3 Os are filled in to signify she cannot return to the track for the rest of the period.  They are erased at the end of the period.

Nothing in the rules suggests that these should be erased at the end of the first period.

My suggested correction.



3. If the player is injured causing a jam to be called off, the 3 Os are filled in to signify she cannot return to the track for the remainder of the period. If this is the first period then at the start of second period the 3 Os will be replaced.
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: Laddie on September 01, 2011, 05:14:14 am
After discussing this with Joe a bit, it was clarified that at the start of the second period, the filled-in "Os" are replaced by empty ones, indicating that the player already sat out 3-jams and then the remainder of the first period (for having the jam called due to an injury twice).

The empty Os will be an indicator that if it happens a third time in period 2, she has to sit out the remainder of the game.

It's a system I intend on using with our new IWB. My thanks to Ketterman and JoeXCore.
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: Shaun Ketterman on September 01, 2011, 08:43:24 pm
It's a good system.  I've been using it all season at home.  I haven't had a kerfluffle over injuries yet. 
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: Brad Religion on September 01, 2011, 09:26:43 pm
Did you have any kerfluffles before you started this system? I don't know that I have... But I do like this idea.
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: Darkjester on September 02, 2011, 04:11:23 am

The empty Os will be an indicator that if it happens a third time in period 2, she has to sit out the remainder of the game.


Aside from if the EMT's say "she's out for the remainder of the game" I don't see anything allowing to force the skater to have to sit out the remainder of the game for a 3rd time in period 2.

Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: Stegoscorus on September 02, 2011, 05:48:16 am
[rule]10.3.1.1If more than one jam is called off for the same skater, she must sit out of the remainder of the period.[/rule]
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: Darkjester on September 02, 2011, 03:29:00 pm
So to make sure that we're clear.

You are reading that to say that if a skater has 2 Jams called off for her during period 1.  She sits for the remainder of period 1. (No question there)


Then.  If a single jam is called off for her in Period 2, she is now out for remainder of period 2 as well?



That isn't my understanding of the wording of 10.3.1,
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: Stegoscorus on September 03, 2011, 02:44:48 am
So to make sure that we're clear.

You are reading that to say that if a skater has 2 Jams called off for her during period 1.  She sits for the remainder of period 1. (No question there)


Then.  If a single jam is called off for her in Period 2, she is now out for remainder of period 2 as well?



That isn't my understanding of the wording of 10.3.1,

No, me neither.  But maybe that's the rule Laddie was thinking, and just remembered it slightly incorrectly?
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: JoeXCore on September 03, 2011, 04:41:57 am
[rule]10.3.1.1If more than one jam is called off for the same skater, she must sit out of the remainder of the period.[/rule]

If a skater has a jam called for her injury in the first period and then has a second jam called off in the second period... then she has met the criteria and therefore "must sit out the remainder of the period"

If a skater met the criteria in the first period... and then in the second period has another jam called off... then she should also set out the remainder of the period.

(this is of course my interpretation of this rule)
Title: Re: Inside White Board Markings
Post by: Hans Oferbach on September 03, 2011, 11:38:35 am
gotta agree with joeXcore here. it does say "more than one jam", not more than one jam during the period... but again, only my interperatation, i've been wrong before  ;) ...anyone else?