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WFTDA => General Ref Discussion => Topic started by: Major Wood on February 07, 2009, 04:45:09 am

Title: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Major Wood on February 07, 2009, 04:45:09 am
I'm head-reffing my first bout tomorrow and working through what I want to talk about during the pre-bout ref and captains meeting.
Is there anything that any of you have felt is especially good to mention?
Title: Re: Pre-bout meetings
Post by: Johnny Zebra on February 07, 2009, 02:24:50 pm
Let's do this -- start a list, and everyone in their response copy the list below and add their items. That way this will be an easy to reference resource for all time.

So:

===========

Ref Meeting:

1. Stress to the outside refs how they need to stay on the jammer if she's on the outside and communicate to the jammer ref anything about her status - jammer refs depend on them! (Johnny Zebra)
2.
3.
4.
5.
etc

===============

Captains Meeting:

1. Inform them of the need to adhere to timeouts as timed; explain consequences for not doing so. (Johnny Zebra)
2.
3.
4.
etc
Title: Re: Pre-bout meetings
Post by: Jessticular Fortitude on February 07, 2009, 03:24:04 pm
===========

Ref Meeting:

1. Stress to the outside refs how they need to stay on the jammer if she's on the outside and communicate to the jammer ref anything about her status - jammer refs depend on them! (Johnny Zebra)
2. Tell the outside refs what formation they're doing- half lap skate and wait, full lap, etc. (I inevitably have to ask every time because they never think to tell us) (Jessticular Fortitude)
3.
4.
5.

===============

Captains Meeting:

1. Inform them of the need to adhere to timeouts as timed; explain consequences for not doing so. (Johnny Zebra)
2. Explain what will happen if they cuss out the crowd, refs, skaters, flip the bird, etc. so they know up front. (Jessticles)
3.
4.
Title: Re: Pre-bout meetings
Post by: ttjustice on February 07, 2009, 04:57:08 pm
===========

Ref Meeting:

1. Stress to the outside refs how they need to stay on the jammer if she's on the outside and communicate to the jammer ref anything about her status - jammer refs depend on them! (Johnny Zebra)
2. Tell the outside refs what formation they're doing- half lap skate and wait, full lap, etc. (I inevitably have to ask every time because they never think to tell us) (Jessticular Fortitude)
3.  Don't forget to use hand signals when relaying penalties to whiteboards/ trackers.  Speak loudly and clearly, especially if trackers are new. (Timothy T. Justice).
4.
5.

===============

Captains Meeting:

1. Inform them of the need to adhere to timeouts as timed; explain consequences for not doing so. (Johnny Zebra)
2. Explain what will happen if they cuss out the crowd, refs, skaters, flip the bird, etc. so they know up front. (Jessticles)
3. Remind them where the penalty box pass line is/ penalty for not using it and stress "communication from the box" rules being used at that bout (especially if non-wftda). (Timothy T. Justice).
4.
Title: Re: Pre-bout meetings
Post by: Johnny Zebra on February 07, 2009, 05:35:04 pm
===========

Ref Meeting:

1. Stress to the outside refs how they need to stay on the jammer if she's on the outside and communicate to the jammer ref anything about her status - jammer refs depend on them! (Johnny Zebra)
2. Tell the outside refs what formation they're doing- half lap skate and wait, full lap, etc. (I inevitably have to ask every time because they never think to tell us) (Jessticular Fortitude)
3.  Don't forget to use hand signals when relaying penalties to whiteboards/ trackers.  Speak loudly and clearly, especially if trackers are new. (Timothy T. Justice).
4. Mouth guards. Policy for calling. Make sure all refs enforce it the same way (Options here: http://zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=104.0)  (Johnny Zebra)
5.

===============

Captains Meeting:

1. Inform them of the need to adhere to timeouts as timed; explain consequences for not doing so. (Johnny Zebra)
2. Explain what will happen if they cuss out the crowd, refs, skaters, flip the bird, etc. so they know up front. (Jessticles)
3. Remind them where the penalty box pass line is/ penalty for not using it and stress "communication from the box" rules being used at that bout (especially if non-wftda). (Timothy T. Justice).
4. Mouth guards. Policy for calling. (Johnny Zebra)
5. Explain/decide policy for skater formation at beginning of the jam to make sure everyone understands how it works (Johnny Zebra)
6.
Title: Re: Pre-bout meetings
Post by: Death by Roxy on February 07, 2009, 06:49:55 pm
Ref Meeting:

1. Stress to the outside refs how they need to stay on the jammer if she's on the outside and communicate to the jammer ref anything about her status - jammer refs depend on them! (Johnny Zebra)
2. Tell the outside refs what formation they're doing- half lap skate and wait, full lap, etc. (I inevitably have to ask every time because they never think to tell us) (Jessticular Fortitude)
3.  Don't forget to use hand signals when relaying penalties to whiteboards/ trackers.  Speak loudly and clearly, especially if trackers are new. (Timothy T. Justice).
4. Mouth guards. Policy for calling. Make sure all refs enforce it the same way (Options here: http://zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=104.0)  (Johnny Zebra)
5. Determine who and when does the skater equipment check (I know this should be a given but a reminder for fledgling leagues) Death by Roxy

===============

Captains Meeting:

1. Inform them of the need to adhere to timeouts as timed; explain consequences for not doing so. (Johnny Zebra)
2. Explain what will happen if they cuss out the crowd, refs, skaters, flip the bird, etc. so they know up front. (Jessticles)
3. Remind them where the penalty box pass line is/ penalty for not using it and stress "communication from the box" rules being used at that bout (especially if non-wftda). (Timothy T. Justice).
4. Mouth guards. Policy for calling. (Johnny Zebra)
5. Explain/decide policy for skater formation at beginning of the jam to make sure everyone understands how it works (Johnny Zebra)
6. Equipment check as above Death by Roxy
Title: Re: Pre-bout meetings
Post by: bronco on February 07, 2009, 08:12:41 pm
Ref Meeting:

1. Stress to the outside refs how they need to stay on the jammer if she's on the outside and communicate to the jammer ref anything about her status - jammer refs depend on them! (Johnny Zebra)
2. Tell the outside refs what formation they're doing- half lap skate and wait, full lap, etc. (I inevitably have to ask every time because they never think to tell us) (Jessticular Fortitude)
3.  Don't forget to use hand signals when relaying penalties to whiteboards/ trackers.  Speak loudly and clearly, especially if trackers are new. (Timothy T. Justice).
4. Mouth guards. Policy for calling. Make sure all refs enforce it the same way (Options here: http://zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=104.0)  (Johnny Zebra)
5. Determine who and when does the skater equipment check (I know this should be a given but a reminder for fledgling leagues) Death by Roxy
6. Reconfirm that any ref can call a major on any player and call the jam off at anytime, but only jam refs can call minors against jammers (Bronco, per WFTDA best practices)
7. Establish procedure to start the pack (jam timer or head ref starts, hand up 5 or 10 seconds before, hand down on pack start or jam start) (Bronco)

===============

Captains Meeting:

1. Inform them of the need to adhere to timeouts as timed; explain consequences for not doing so. (Johnny Zebra)
2. Explain what will happen if they cuss out the crowd, refs, skaters, flip the bird, etc. so they know up front. (Jessticles)
3. Remind them where the penalty box pass line is/ penalty for not using it and stress "communication from the box" rules being used at that bout (especially if non-wftda). (Timothy T. Justice).
4. Mouth guards. Policy for calling. (Johnny Zebra)
5. Explain/decide policy for skater formation at beginning of the jam to make sure everyone understands how it works (Johnny Zebra)
6. Equipment check as above Death by Roxy
7. Determine exactly who will be allowed to talk with the head ref, and that the team communicates through their C&A's to only the head ref (Bronco)
8. Reinforce that you want to see a fair and safe bout - this makes it easier to approach the coaches/captains later about safety issues (Bronco)
Title: Re: Pre-bout meetings
Post by: DayGlo Divine on February 07, 2009, 11:17:52 pm
Ref Meeting:

1. Stress to the outside refs how they need to stay on the jammer if she's on the outside and communicate to the jammer ref anything about her status - jammer refs depend on them! (Johnny Zebra)
2. Tell the outside refs what formation they're doing- half lap skate and wait, full lap, etc. (I inevitably have to ask every time because they never think to tell us) (Jessticular Fortitude)
3.  Don't forget to use hand signals when relaying penalties to whiteboards/ trackers.  Speak loudly and clearly, especially if trackers are new. (Timothy T. Justice).
4. Mouth guards. Policy for calling. Make sure all refs enforce it the same way (Options here: http://zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=104.0)  (Johnny Zebra)
5. Determine who and when does the skater equipment check (I know this should be a given but a reminder for fledgling leagues) Death by Roxy
6. Reconfirm that any ref can call a major on any player and call the jam off at anytime, but only jam refs can call minors against jammers (Bronco, per WFTDA best practices)
7. Establish procedure to start the pack (jam timer or head ref starts, hand up 5 or 10 seconds before, hand down on pack start or jam start) (Bronco)
8. Going back to number 1, stress to the jammer refs that they should look for input from the outside pack refs when the latter are in position to see a pass near the outside line. (DayGlo)
9. If there are new people in NSO rules, make sure that they are comfortable with the jobs they've been assigned, and if they aren't (or have any questions), address those after the meeting. (DayGlo)

===============

Captains Meeting:

1. Inform them of the need to adhere to timeouts as timed; explain consequences for not doing so. (Johnny Zebra)
2. Explain what will happen if they cuss out the crowd, refs, skaters, flip the bird, etc. so they know up front. (Jessticles)
3. Remind them where the penalty box pass line is/ penalty for not using it and stress "communication from the box" rules being used at that bout (especially if non-wftda). (Timothy T. Justice).
4. Mouth guards. Policy for calling. (Johnny Zebra)
5. Explain/decide policy for skater formation at beginning of the jam to make sure everyone understands how it works (Johnny Zebra)
6. Equipment check as above Death by Roxy
7. Determine exactly who will be allowed to talk with the head ref, and that the team communicates through their C&A's to only the head ref (Bronco)
8. Reinforce that you want to see a fair and safe bout - this makes it easier to approach the coaches/captains later about safety issues (Bronco)
9. Explain jammerless jam procedure and remind captains that the last jam of the period will end at its natural conclusion; believe it or not, it still sometimes needs to be explained. (DayGlo)
Title: Re: Pre-bout meetings
Post by: bronco on February 09, 2009, 06:21:54 pm
Hey Major - how did it go?
Title: Re: Pre-bout meetings
Post by: Major Wood on February 09, 2009, 07:03:14 pm
Hey Major - how did it go?

Very well. It was a pretty laid back bout. A blowout, so no big controversies. I've gotten a lot of compliments on how well I communicated with the benches when necessary.

To stay on topic in here, I also got a lot of compliments on how professionally I conducted the pre-bout meetings. I got through a lot of material in a short amount of time. I think I was also able to convey that I was going to be reasonable, but would not tolerate any form of disrespect.
I have a few things that I can add to the list above, but will wait until I have my notes in front of me.
Title: Re: Pre-bout meetings
Post by: Major Wood on February 09, 2009, 11:14:06 pm
Ref Meeting:

1. Stress to the outside refs how they need to stay on the jammer if she's on the outside and communicate to the jammer ref anything about her status - jammer refs depend on them! (Johnny Zebra)
2. Tell the outside refs what formation they're doing- half lap skate and wait, full lap, etc. (I inevitably have to ask every time because they never think to tell us) (Jessticular Fortitude)
3.  Don't forget to use hand signals when relaying penalties to whiteboards/ trackers.  Speak loudly and clearly, especially if trackers are new. (Timothy T. Justice).
4. Mouth guards. Policy for calling. Make sure all refs enforce it the same way (Options here: http://zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=104.0)  (Johnny Zebra)
5. Determine who and when does the skater equipment check (I know this should be a given but a reminder for fledgling leagues) Death by Roxy
6. Reconfirm that any ref can call a major on any player and call the jam off at anytime, but only jam refs can call minors against jammers (Bronco, per WFTDA best practices)
7. Establish procedure to start the pack (jam timer or head ref starts, hand up 5 or 10 seconds before, hand down on pack start or jam start) (Bronco)
8. Going back to number 1, stress to the jammer refs that they should look for input from the outside pack refs when the latter are in position to see a pass near the outside line. (DayGlo)
9. If there are new people in NSO rules, make sure that they are comfortable with the jobs they've been assigned, and if they aren't (or have any questions), address those after the meeting. (DayGlo)
10. Seemingly obvious one, but it does come up. All questions should be directed to the head ref. (Major Wood)

===============

Captains Meeting:

1. Inform them of the need to adhere to timeouts as timed; explain consequences for not doing so. (Johnny Zebra)
2. Explain what will happen if they cuss out the crowd, refs, skaters, flip the bird, etc. so they know up front. (Jessticles)
3. Remind them where the penalty box pass line is/ penalty for not using it and stress "communication from the box" rules being used at that bout (especially if non-wftda). (Timothy T. Justice).
4. Mouth guards. Policy for calling. (Johnny Zebra)
5. Explain/decide policy for skater formation at beginning of the jam to make sure everyone understands how it works (Johnny Zebra)
6. Equipment check as above Death by Roxy
7. Determine exactly who will be allowed to talk with the head ref, and that the team communicates through their C&A's to only the head ref (Bronco)
8. Reinforce that you want to see a fair and safe bout - this makes it easier to approach the coaches/captains later about safety issues (Bronco)
9. Explain jammerless jam procedure and remind captains that the last jam of the period will end at its natural conclusion; believe it or not, it still sometimes needs to be explained. (DayGlo)
10. Explain that there is very little time between jams to do what you need, so requests for official review must be brief. (Major Wood)
Title: Re: Pre-bout meetings
Post by: bronco on February 10, 2009, 12:59:44 am
Glad to hear all went well!

This is a really good list - is there a way to preserve it in a sticky thread or "best of"?  That would make it easy for the newbies to find and keep us from launching the same threads over and over.  In the meanwhile, I'll be using it.
Title: Re: Pre-bout meetings
Post by: Major Wood on February 10, 2009, 03:05:40 am
I've been toying with the idea of doing a sticky thread with links to important threads. Once I figure out the best way to do it, I'll go ahead with it.
Title: Re: Pre-bout meetings
Post by: Miranda Wrights on February 23, 2009, 07:35:19 pm
Please and absolutely make this a sticky--it is essential reading for new (terrified) head refs like me.  I'm working on a summary of the great advice on NSOs from another thread and will repost it as well.  Perhaps both can be stickied.
Title: Re: Pre-bout meetings
Post by: Major Wood on February 23, 2009, 07:39:35 pm
I will likely start a thread that will be sticky with links to informative thread like those.
Title: Re: Pre-bout meetings
Post by: Jessticular Fortitude on February 23, 2009, 08:28:22 pm
Also, you can bookmark it to refer back to later- Bookmarks is a link up at the top next to "My Messages". It bookmarks the whole thread, not individual posts, so as people add to the thread, the bookmark will also update.


bookmark bookmark bookmark
Title: Re: Pre-bout meetings
Post by: Johnny Zebra on February 23, 2009, 09:36:51 pm
Ref Meeting:

1. Stress to the outside refs how they need to stay on the jammer if she's on the outside and communicate to the jammer ref anything about her status - jammer refs depend on them! (Johnny Zebra)
2. Tell the outside refs what formation they're doing- half lap skate and wait, full lap, etc. (I inevitably have to ask every time because they never think to tell us) (Jessticular Fortitude)
3.  Don't forget to use hand signals when relaying penalties to whiteboards/ trackers.  Speak loudly and clearly, especially if trackers are new. (Timothy T. Justice).
4. Mouth guards. Policy for calling. Make sure all refs enforce it the same way (Options here: http://zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=104.0)  (Johnny Zebra)
5. Determine who and when does the skater equipment check (I know this should be a given but a reminder for fledgling leagues) Death by Roxy
6. Reconfirm that any ref can call a major on any player and call the jam off at anytime, but only jam refs can call minors against jammers (Bronco, per WFTDA best practices)
7. Establish procedure to start the pack (jam timer or head ref starts, hand up 5 or 10 seconds before, hand down on pack start or jam start) (Bronco)
8. Going back to number 1, stress to the jammer refs that they should look for input from the outside pack refs when the latter are in position to see a pass near the outside line. (DayGlo)
9. If there are new people in NSO rules, make sure that they are comfortable with the jobs they've been assigned, and if they aren't (or have any questions), address those after the meeting. (DayGlo)
10. Seemingly obvious one, but it does come up. All questions should be directed to the head ref. (Major Wood)
11. If you have a jam timer, explain to her that s/he NEVER starts the jam if she doesn't see you, the head ref, on the track and in position or otherwise giving her the thumbs up to go. Learned that one the hard way this weekend, and it led to a pretty messed up situation. (Johnny Zebra)

===============

Captains Meeting:

1. Inform them of the need to adhere to timeouts as timed; explain consequences for not doing so. (Johnny Zebra)
2. Explain what will happen if they cuss out the crowd, refs, skaters, flip the bird, etc. so they know up front. (Jessticles)
3. Remind them where the penalty box pass line is/ penalty for not using it and stress "communication from the box" rules being used at that bout (especially if non-wftda). (Timothy T. Justice).
4. Mouth guards. Policy for calling. (Johnny Zebra)
5. Explain/decide policy for skater formation at beginning of the jam to make sure everyone understands how it works (Johnny Zebra)
6. Equipment check as above Death by Roxy
7. Determine exactly who will be allowed to talk with the head ref, and that the team communicates through their C&A's to only the head ref (Bronco)
8. Reinforce that you want to see a fair and safe bout - this makes it easier to approach the coaches/captains later about safety issues (Bronco)
9. Explain jammerless jam procedure and remind captains that the last jam of the period will end at its natural conclusion; believe it or not, it still sometimes needs to be explained. (DayGlo)
10. Explain that there is very little time between jams to do what you need, so requests for official review must be brief. (Major Wood)
Title: Re: Pre-bout meetings
Post by: Rev. Riot on February 24, 2009, 03:18:29 am
Ahhh, see Johnny, I disagree with that one (and that's why I dislike threads like this). I tell my jam timer to always ALWAYS start the next jam after thirty seconds, no matter where I or another ref is, unless I explicitly tell them to wait. I might be taking care of something the jam doesn't need to wait for, or might just be checking the hotboard, I can get into position, Jammer Refs can get into position, we can go without us being in exactly the right spot giving a thumbs up.
Title: Re: Pre-bout meetings
Post by: Johnny Zebra on February 24, 2009, 03:55:10 am
I like this thread. Threads like this are suggestions -- people are free to disagree with them or not use them.

I was in the middle of dealing with something off the track, and it was my fault that I didn't call an official timeout, becuase I thought it could be dealt with in 30 seconds. But then it suddenly  got more complicated, and as I was getting ready to call an official timeout, the jam started, and then things got more messed up.

So I needed to be on that, my fault, but even so, I prefer to have the backup of the jam timer not starting the jam if she sees I'm off the track and engaged. You know, 'cause I'm not perfect yet, and it would have saved some grief. :-[

we can go without us being in exactly the right spot giving a thumbs up.

But I didn't suggest above that the jam timer always has to wait for the HR to be in position AND giving thumbs up -- I said in position OR giving a thumbs up (if looking otherwise engaged). Normally, she just called it at 30, and I'd be on the infield ready to go - no thumbs. But for me, it's a good backup if I'm not.

~j.z.



Title: Re: Pre-bout meetings
Post by: Professor Murder on February 24, 2009, 03:58:56 am
I'd be sure to add to the ref meeting the need to specify where you all are meeting between periods to discuss the bout thus far, pointing out areas where the crew has excelled, and where there needs to be better enforcement/consistency.  And, of course, to talk through mistakes and hiccups should they occur.

There's little worse than trying to have a meeting in a scant 10 minutes and not being able to find a couple of refs.  Grrrrrrrr.

Maybe also specify team colors for verbal calls.  I like to do that.
Title: Re: Pre-bout meetings
Post by: Stegoscorus on March 24, 2009, 05:52:24 pm
I thought of something to add based on another thread:

If you have stats people at your pre-bout ref meeting, remind the penalty tracker and/or score keeper that it's OK if they need an Official Timeout between jams to make sure their stuff is adding up right.  Scorekeepers probably won't need this unless it's a close game; they'll want to double check their math with a few jams to go.  But penalty trackers are more likely to need it a few times throughout the game. 

If those people aren't at your pre-bout meeting, find them before the game to remind them.  I can't imagine the feeling of knowing something is going wrong and not being able to interrupt and save the day, but we know that some stats people unfortunately feel they shouldn't speak up. 
Title: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Tootie Tinwhistle on April 13, 2009, 06:12:26 am
So I'm head reffing a bout for the first time Saturday.  I've realized that many issues that arise in a bout could have been avoided had they been addressed in the pre-bout meeting, especially inter-league bouts.  I was looking for any issues that people make sure to address in their officials meeting and in their captians/officials meeting.  Also any other head ref advice anyone has to offer is welcome.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Ref Neck on April 13, 2009, 11:27:36 am
Go over the whiteboards/scoreboards/penalty box/game clocks/jam clocks/etc locations and functions. Sometimes the your league or the visiting teams do something differently at their home bouts so it is always nice to give them a lay of the land prior to the first whistle.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Riff Reff on April 13, 2009, 12:07:14 pm
there is some good input in this thread. (http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=108.msg1969#msg1969)
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Johnny Zebra on April 13, 2009, 02:26:10 pm
Tootie --

Topic merged with the thread Riff suggested, so now see posts above yours. Also, more discussion here:

http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=102.0

~j.z.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Tootie Tinwhistle on April 13, 2009, 03:05:27 pm
Perfect, so glad I searched first :P
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Bishop on April 13, 2009, 06:09:11 pm
I updated this list since there were a lot of good ideas that hadn't ever been incorporated.  I added an "NSO meeting" because the list seemed to dictate a need for one.  Anyway, feel free to disagree with any point – critical feedback is encouraged so long as that criticism is *specific.* 

Ref Meeting:

1. Go over the whiteboards/scoreboards/penalty box/game clocks/jam clocks/etc locations and functions. (Ref Neck)
2. Stress to the outside refs how they need to stay on the jammer if she's on the outside and communicate to the jammer ref anything about her status - jammer refs depend on them! (Johnny Zebra)
3. Tell the outside refs what formation they're doing- half lap skate and wait, full lap, etc. (I inevitably have to ask every time because they never think to tell us) (Jessticular Fortitude)
4.  Don't forget to use hand signals when relaying penalties to whiteboards/ trackers.  Speak loudly and clearly, especially if trackers are new. (Timothy T. Justice).
5. Mouth guards. Policy for calling. Make sure all refs enforce it the same way (Options here: http://zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=104.0)  (Johnny Zebra)
6. Determine who and when does the skater equipment check (I know this should be a given but a reminder for fledgling leagues) (Death by Roxy)
7. Reconfirm that any ref can call a major on any player and call the jam off at anytime, but only jam refs can call minors against jammers (Bronco, per WFTDA best practices)
8. Establish procedure to start the pack (jam timer or head ref starts, hand up 5 or 10 seconds before, hand down on pack start or jam start) (Bronco)
9. Going back to number 1, stress to the jammer refs that they should look for input from the outside pack refs when the latter are in position to see a pass near the outside line. (DayGlo)
10. If there are new people in NSO rules, make sure that they are comfortable with the jobs they've been assigned, and if they aren't (or have any questions), address those after the meeting. (DayGlo)
11. Seemingly obvious one, but it does come up. All questions should be directed to the head ref. (Major Wood)
12. Inform refs to call for an official timeout if the penalty tracker and/or score keeper needs a moment between jams to make sure their stuff is adding up right. (Stegoscorus)
13. Instruct Jammer Refs to check the number of minors that their Jammer has prior to each jam. (Bishop)
14. Instruct Jammer Refs to inform their Jammer of the number of minors she's incurred by holding out a finger for each minor prior to the start of each jam. (Bishop via Gunshow via Mason-Dixon Roller Vixens via Charm City refs  :))
15. Specify team colors for verbal calls. (Professor Murder)
16. Specify where referees are meeting between periods to discuss the bout thus far, pointing out areas where the crew has excelled, and where there needs to be better enforcement/consistency.  And, of course, to talk through mistakes and hiccups should they occur. (Professor Murder)

===============


Captains Meeting:

1. Go over the whiteboards/scoreboards/penalty box/game clocks/jam clocks/etc locations and functions. (Ref Neck)
2. Inform them of the need to adhere to timeouts as timed (60 seconds); explain consequences for not doing so. (Johnny Zebra)
3. Explain what will happen if they cuss out the crowd, refs, skaters, flip the bird, etc. so they know up front. (Jessticles)
4. Remind them where the penalty box pass line is/ penalty for not using it and stress "communication from the box" rules being used at that bout (especially if non-wftda). (Timothy T. Justice).
5. Mouth guards. Policy for calling. (Johnny Zebra)
6. Explain/decide policy for skater formation at beginning of the jam to make sure everyone understands how it works (Johnny Zebra)
7. Equipment check as above (Death by Roxy)
8. Determine exactly who will be allowed to talk with the head ref, and that the team communicates to the head ref only through their Captains & Alternates. (Bronco)
9. Reinforce that you want to see a fair and safe bout - this makes it easier to approach the coaches/captains later about safety issues (Bronco)
10. Explain jammerless jam procedure and remind captains that the last jam of the period will end at its natural conclusion; believe it or not, it still sometimes needs to be explained. (DayGlo)
11. Explain that there is very little time between jams to do what you need, so requests for official review must be brief. (Major Wood)
12. Coaches return to benches when asked by the head ref.  Only punishment is ejection. (Bronco)
13. Players must remain seated in their seats (not the floor).  Any players milling around the penalty box, esp. to chat, will be placed into the penalty box. (Bronco)

===============

NSO Meeting:

1. Go over the whiteboards/scoreboards/penalty box/game clocks/jam clocks/etc locations and functions. (Ref Neck)
2 If there are new people in NSO roles, make sure that they are comfortable with the jobs they've been assigned, and if they aren't (or have any questions) (DayGlo)
3. Remind the penalty tracker /score keeper/penalty box timer that it's OK if they need an Official Timeout between jams to make sure their stuff is adding up right. (Stegoscorus)
4. If you have a jam timer, explain to her/him what cues to look for prior to starting a jam. (i.e. explain to her that s/he NEVER starts the jam if s/he doesn't see you, the head ref, on the track and in position or otherwise giving her/him the thumbs up to go. (Johnny Zebra). OR tell the jam timer to ALWAYS start the next jam after thirty seconds, no matter are, unless a ref explicitly tell them to wait. (Rev. Riot)
5. (If applicable) Explain that referees have been instructed to specify team colors for reporting penalties. (Professor Murder)
6. (If applicable) Explain that Jammer refs will switch teams between periods. (Bishop)
7. Explain penalty box procedures with the penalty box timer(s) as appropriate or as their experience dictates. (Bishop)
8. Explain that NSOs are not to issues penalties or otherwise instruct skaters.  If they see a potential problem, notify the closest referee as the situation allows. (Bishop)
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: noidd on April 13, 2009, 07:33:34 pm
Ref Meeting:

1. Go over the whiteboards/scoreboards/penalty box/game clocks/jam clocks/etc locations and functions. (Ref Neck)
2. Stress to the outside refs how they need to stay on the jammer if she's on the outside and communicate to the jammer ref anything about her status - jammer refs depend on them! (Johnny Zebra)
3. Tell the outside refs what formation they're doing- half lap skate and wait, full lap, etc. (I inevitably have to ask every time because they never think to tell us) (Jessticular Fortitude)
4.  Don't forget to use hand signals when relaying penalties to whiteboards/ trackers.  Speak loudly and clearly, especially if trackers are new. (Timothy T. Justice).
5. Mouth guards. Policy for calling. Make sure all refs enforce it the same way (Options here: http://zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=104.0)  (Johnny Zebra)
6. Determine who and when does the skater equipment check (I know this should be a given but a reminder for fledgling leagues) (Death by Roxy)
7. Reconfirm that any ref can call a major on any player and call the jam off at anytime, but only jam refs can call minors against jammers (Bronco, per WFTDA best practices)
8. Establish procedure to start the pack (jam timer or head ref starts, hand up 5 or 10 seconds before, hand down on pack start or jam start) (Bronco)
9. Going back to number 1, stress to the jammer refs that they should look for input from the outside pack refs when the latter are in position to see a pass near the outside line. (DayGlo)
10. If there are new people in NSO rules, make sure that they are comfortable with the jobs they've been assigned, and if they aren't (or have any questions), address those after the meeting. (DayGlo)
11. Seemingly obvious one, but it does come up. All questions should be directed to the head ref. (Major Wood)
12. Inform refs to call for an official timeout if the penalty tracker and/or score keeper needs a moment between jams to make sure their stuff is adding up right. (Stegoscorus)
13. Instruct Jammer Refs to check the number of minors that their Jammer has prior to each jam. (Bishop)
14. Instruct Jammer Refs to inform their Jammer of the number of minors she's incurred by holding out a finger for each minor prior to the start of each jam. (Bishop via Gunshow via Mason-Dixon Roller Vixens via Charm City refs  :))
15. Specify team colors for verbal calls. (Professor Murder)
16. Specify where referees are meeting between periods to discuss the bout thus far, pointing out areas where the crew has excelled, and where there needs to be better enforcement/consistency.  And, of course, to talk through mistakes and hiccups should they occur. (Professor Murder)

===============


Captains Meeting:

1. Go over the whiteboards/scoreboards/penalty box/game clocks/jam clocks/etc locations and functions. (Ref Neck)
2. Inform them of the need to adhere to timeouts as timed (60 seconds); explain consequences for not doing so. (Johnny Zebra)
3. Explain what will happen if they cuss out the crowd, refs, skaters, flip the bird, etc. so they know up front. (Jessticles)
4. Remind them where the penalty box pass line is/ penalty for not using it and stress "communication from the box" rules being used at that bout (especially if non-wftda). (Timothy T. Justice).
5. Mouth guards. Policy for calling. (Johnny Zebra)
6. Explain/decide policy for skater formation at beginning of the jam to make sure everyone understands how it works (Johnny Zebra)
7. Equipment check as above (Death by Roxy)
8. Determine exactly who will be allowed to talk with the head ref, and that the team communicates to the head ref only through their Captains & Alternates. (Bronco)
9. Reinforce that you want to see a fair and safe bout - this makes it easier to approach the coaches/captains later about safety issues (Bronco)
10. Explain jammerless jam procedure and remind captains that the last jam of the period will end at its natural conclusion; believe it or not, it still sometimes needs to be explained. (DayGlo)
11. Explain that there is very little time between jams to do what you need, so requests for official review must be brief. (Major Wood)
12. Coaches return to benches when asked by the head ref.  Only punishment is ejection. (Bronco)
13. Players must remain seated in their seats (not the floor).  Any players milling around the penalty box, esp. to chat, will be placed into the penalty box. (Bronco)

===============

NSO Meeting:

1. Go over the whiteboards/scoreboards/penalty box/game clocks/jam clocks/etc locations and functions. (Ref Neck)
2 If there are new people in NSO roles, make sure that they are comfortable with the jobs they've been assigned, and if they aren't (or have any questions) (DayGlo)
3. Remind the penalty tracker /score keeper/penalty box timer that it's OK if they need an Official Timeout between jams to make sure their stuff is adding up right. (Stegoscorus)
4. If you have a jam timer, explain to her/him what cues to look for prior to starting a jam. (i.e. explain to her that s/he NEVER starts the jam if s/he doesn't see you, the head ref, on the track and in position or otherwise giving her/him the thumbs up to go. (Johnny Zebra). OR tell the jam timer to ALWAYS start the next jam after thirty seconds, no matter are, unless a ref explicitly tell them to wait. (Rev. Riot)
5. (If applicable) Explain that referees have been instructed to specify team colors for reporting penalties. (Professor Murder)
6. (If applicable) Explain that Jammer refs will switch teams between periods. (Bishop)
7. Explain penalty box procedures with the penalty box timer(s) as appropriate or as their experience dictates. (Bishop)
8. Explain that NSOs are not to issues penalties or otherwise instruct skaters.  If they see a potential problem, notify the closest referee as the situation allows. (Bishop)
9. Don't use the word "Go" when releasing a skater from the penalty box.  Adrenaline filled skaters have been known to take this as an instruction and skate out only to get an IP major for following that instruction.  Use 4 3 2 1 clear or equiv. (noidd)
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Great Barrier Ref on April 13, 2009, 07:48:01 pm
Corollary:

If the head ref doesn't cover any one of these points in the meeting, ask. The Head is in charge, but it's everyones responsibility to be on the same page.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Bishop on April 13, 2009, 08:27:50 pm
Corollary:

If the head ref doesn't cover any one of these points in the meeting, ask. The Head is in charge, but it's everyones responsibility to be on the same page.

+1
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Cupid Stunt on April 16, 2009, 06:34:58 pm
I also let both team captains, scoreboard staff and other zebras know that I have another stopwatch with the period time on, in case the scoreboard electricity goes off (which has happened to me twice while HR).
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: mick hawkins on April 23, 2009, 02:24:47 am
Our scoreboard operator/period timer is told to stop the period clock if the jam doesnt start after the 30seconds

effectively stopping the clock for an "unofficial" official timeout - even if an official timeout wasnt signalled
this allows the NSOs and Refs a little extra (a few seconds) to get their shit together if needed - without wasting playing time

this doesnt happen very often - it's just a failsafe measure to prevent the clock running down unnecessarily

the clock is then restarted when the jam starts

this isnt a substitute for an officials timeout - if we need a timeout, it's called
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: bronco on April 27, 2009, 08:36:40 pm
Attached is my entire list of Pre-Bout meeting points, with relevant citations from the WFTDA 3.1 ruleset.  I do the Head Ref - Captains meeting before they warmup and find it much easier to handout sheets for the Captains and Alternates.  Then they can convey the information with their teams before the bout, and approach me with any questions before the bout starts.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Noah Tall on June 02, 2009, 12:50:03 am

9. Don't use the word "Go" when releasing a skater from the penalty box.  Adrenaline filled skaters have been known to take this as an instruction and skate out only to get an IP major for following that instruction.  Use 4 3 2 1 clear or equiv. (noidd)

I don't understand this.  If the penalty keeper told me to go, I would.  According to 6.12.19 if the penalty box timer tells you to go, you can't be penalized for that.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: JoeXCore on June 02, 2009, 01:59:22 am
Well she could go... out in the middle of the pack.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Professor Murder on June 02, 2009, 02:46:37 am

9. Don't use the word "Go" when releasing a skater from the penalty box.  Adrenaline filled skaters have been known to take this as an instruction and skate out only to get an IP major for following that instruction.  Use 4 3 2 1 clear or equiv. (noidd)

I don't understand this.  If the penalty keeper told me to go, I would.  According to 6.12.19 if the penalty box timer tells you to go, you can't be penalized for that.

"Go" is a command.

Also, Dude, "Go" is not the preferred nomenclature. "Done," please.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: bronco on June 02, 2009, 07:30:59 pm
Thanks Murder, I added this and updated my pre-bout ref instructions to 4.0:

•   Penalty box NSOs will have skaters stand at 10 seconds and say “DONE” when the penalty time hits zero.  Remind skaters to put in their mouthguards and watch for approaching OPRs.  NSOs will recommend Illegal Procedure penalties to OPR or the Head Ref for skaters that leave early or refuse to enter CCW

The attached file has discussion points for the Head-Ref Captains meeting (with 4.0 citations) and Ref/NSO instructions
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: JoeXCore on June 02, 2009, 08:52:42 pm
Entering the box CW is totally legal. There should be no penalties issued.

However, if they enter CW the time will not start.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Jessticular Fortitude on June 02, 2009, 09:03:11 pm
I hope you mean clockwise....
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: JoeXCore on June 02, 2009, 09:20:26 pm
fixed it
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Darkjester on June 02, 2009, 09:21:02 pm
I'm sure thats what he meant.

hehe I had to have a 'discussion' with my team this past practice, who most have been skating for over a year now, that 'skating backwards' is not the same as skating 'Clockwise'.

That it was in fact legal for a pack skater to turn around still skating 'derby direction' and be skating backwards and to initiate contact as long as it was to a legal zone.

fwiw the 'backwards skater' was turned around during a block and to catch themselves skated backwards for a few strides at the front of the pack, and was 'bumped' by a opposing skater who then yelled they were skating the wrong direction.

Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Noah Tall on June 02, 2009, 10:24:05 pm
Well she could go... out in the middle of the pack.


Yeah, but that would be stupid ;).  If I'm released, and the pack is coming, I still wait for it to pass, rather than trying to lap it.   But, I can see how that would seem like a command, rather than just a notification of my release :).
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: DayGlo Divine on June 03, 2009, 12:20:52 am
That it was in fact legal for a pack skater to turn around still skating 'derby direction' and be skating backwards and to initiate contact as long as it was to a legal zone.

Legal? Yes.

Smart? Perhaps for a firmly positioned rear blocker who is determining the opposing jammer's whereabouts, but for anyone else, not so much. If a pack skater is skating backwards, she can be legally blocked by a skater behind her, as her legal target zones don't change with her turn-around. If she falls as the result of such a block, it probably won't be small, and if she trips someone in the process, that's a major on her.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Noah Tall on June 03, 2009, 01:29:49 am

Legal? Yes.

Smart? Perhaps for a firmly positioned rear blocker who is determining the opposing jammer's whereabouts, but for anyone else, not so much. If a pack skater is skating backwards, she can be legally blocked by a skater behind her, as her legal target zones don't change with her turn-around. If she falls as the result of such a block, it probably won't be small, and if she trips someone in the process, that's a major on her.

Wow, I hadn't considered that.  We have a few folks who skate backwards in the pack; they might want to rethink that.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Darkjester on June 03, 2009, 05:12:08 am
Agreed, This one wasn't so much 'skating' backwards for a length of time as they were 'hit' and got turned around, kept it for a second or two to regain their balance, and piss off the other pack skater, who drew her own penalty for 'hands' by pushing the backwards skater out of her way and saying "turn the eff around, you can't skate backwards."

Guess that is what practice IS all about, Wanna bet? You sure can skate backwards.. just not 'Clockwise'

Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Brad Religion on June 10, 2009, 05:42:35 pm
Thanks Murder, I added this and updated my pre-bout ref instructions to 4.0:

•   Penalty box NSOs will have skaters stand at 10 seconds and say “DONE” when the penalty time hits zero.  Remind skaters to put in their mouthguards and watch for approaching OPRs.  NSOs will recommend Illegal Procedure penalties to OPR or the Head Ref for skaters that leave early or refuse to enter CCW

The attached file has discussion points for the Head-Ref Captains meeting (with 4.0 citations) and Ref/NSO instructions

Hey, bronco... Can you fix this link? I need to re-dl it, and it appears to be broken now. Thanks!
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: bronco on June 15, 2009, 08:10:30 pm
I re-attached to this thread

Thanks Murder, I added this and updated my pre-bout ref instructions to 4.0:

•   Penalty box NSOs will have skaters stand at 10 seconds and say “DONE” when the penalty time hits zero.  Remind skaters to put in their mouthguards and watch for approaching OPRs.  NSOs will recommend Illegal Procedure penalties to OPR or the Head Ref for skaters that leave early or refuse to enter CCW

The attached file has discussion points for the Head-Ref Captains meeting (with 4.0 citations) and Ref/NSO instructions

Hey, bronco... Can you fix this link? I need to re-dl it, and it appears to be broken now. Thanks!
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Brad Religion on June 15, 2009, 10:19:44 pm
Awesome, thank you!
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: FNZebra on June 15, 2009, 10:44:55 pm
I re-attached to this thread


Bronco, requesting clarification about this one:

Quote
Any ref can call a major on any player and call the jam off at anytime, but only jam refs can call minors against jammers

I understand the majors, and calling it off at anytime for an injury or other safety issue, but would it be better practice to have the only the JRs and the HR be the ones to call off the jam when the lead jammer signals for it? So the HR is effectively the backup for the JRs for that purpose, if one should get taken down.

That would avoid the messy situation where the non-lead jammer tries to call off the jam, and their JR wisely doesn't allow it, but an eager OPR who wasn't paying as close attention to the LJ status sees the flapping arms and whistles it off. (and I still hate that rule, where the skater is penalized for the foolishness of the ref.)
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Bishop on June 16, 2009, 02:06:29 pm
I re-attached to this thread


Bronco, requesting clarification about this one:

Quote
Any ref can call a major on any player and call the jam off at anytime, but only jam refs can call minors against jammers

I understand the majors, and calling it off at anytime for an injury or other safety issue, but would it be better practice to have the only the JRs and the HR be the ones to call off the jam when the lead jammer signals for it? So the HR is effectively the backup for the JRs for that purpose, if one should get taken down.

That would avoid the messy situation where the non-lead jammer tries to call off the jam, and their JR wisely doesn't allow it, but an eager OPR who wasn't paying as close attention to the LJ status sees the flapping arms and whistles it off. (and I still hate that rule, where the skater is penalized for the foolishness of the ref.)

Who can call off jams is certainly something that could be discussed in the pre-bout meetings.  As to how any particular setup works in practice ... I suppose a lot of it depends on the number, arrangement, experience, and skating skill of your referees.  I've been an IPR (not HR) and called off a jam or two.  The Head Ref was serving as front IPR and I was rear IPR.  I was in better position to call off the jam on a couple of occasions when the Jammer's efforts to breach the back of the pack were stymied.  The Jammers fell down or were blocked OOB and their Jam refs went flying by.  Naturally, this was exactly the moment when the Jammer tried to call off the Jam so I called it in place of the Jam ref or the HR.

Also, I've Jam reffed enough times to know that there are those times when OPRs are in the best position to call off Jams.  A time or two when I've been buzzing along to keep up with my Jammer, she's been blocked OOB on the outside of the turn just as I've entered the turn.  Of course, she called the jam as soon as her butt hit the floor.  Since the pack obstructed my view and my line of sight was in the complete opposite direction for a couple seconds, there really wasn't any way for me or the HR to call off the jam in a timely fashion.  So, IMO OPRs can be very helpful when it comes to calling off a jam.  I’ve been in enough close bouts that I’d hate to see a team lose over a jam not being called off quickly enough.  Since I’ve started reffing, my backwards skating skill has improved enough that I can flip around (turning clockwise so my eyes are always on my Jammer) for a few seconds whenever my Jammer gets held up and I whiz by her.  So I don’t need to rely on OPRs as much for calling jams anymore.      

As for Jammers being penalized for calling off the jam when they’re not Lead Jammer; well, they have to take ownership too.  That’s why there’s a penalty assessed for it when they’re unsuccessful.  As a pre-emptive action, I make sure my Jammer knows her Lead or not-Lead status whenever I have reasonable suspicion that there might be some confusion (both Jammers are close together when exiting the pack, etc.)  I say their name and inform them of their status and look for some sign of comprehension on their part (they usually nod).

I’ll admit it, I’ve called a Jam when my Jammer wasn’t Lead.  It may have had something to do with the announcer declaring that she was calling the Jam at the same moment.  I knew it as soon as I blew the whistle, but of course it was too late.  We have since instructed our announcer not to be so quick on the draw.  So, it happens and I don’t think it’s all on the referees.        
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: noidd on June 16, 2009, 02:17:44 pm
Bishop,

In my mind It's a trade-off...

Speed of the jam being called off verses the jam being accidentally called.

If you're working with a ref-crew who you know and trust you can certainly could let anyone call it off but it is a risk.  Whether the risk is worth it is, I guess up to the head ref of the bout.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Bishop on June 16, 2009, 02:28:46 pm
Bishop,

In my mind It's a trade-off...

Speed of the jam being called off verses the jam being accidentally called.

If you're working with a ref-crew who you know and trust you can certainly could let anyone call it off but it is a risk.  Whether the risk is worth it is, I guess up to the head ref of the bout.

In my mind, most of the time it is worth the risk.  In fact, I think that oftentimes OPRs aren't given the credit they're due.  


Oh, and here's why:

I have never seen a pack referee mistakenly call off a jam.  This includes times when I know they were given the authority to call off jams. 

Conversely, I have been involved in bouts where jams were called off by a pack referee (not Head Ref.)  Two of those times were on me.  Once I went flying my Jammer as I went into the turn and she went to the outside of the track.  She had just reached the pack and was knocked down and OOB and immediately called the jam.  My trusty OPR Gunshow called off the jam on that occasion.

In one bout where I served as rear IPR, I had to call off the jam at least twice.  This was mainly due to the Jam Ref being out of position when the Jammer called it.  The Jam ref was out of position because he wasn't a highly skilled skater.   The winning team won by 16 points.  When starts getting that close, every point is precious. 
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Major Wood on June 16, 2009, 03:49:48 pm
I have never seen a pack referee mistakenly call off a jam.  This includes times when I know they were given the authority to call off jams. 

I have seen it... and it's a bad situation.

Also, if your jammer falls, there shouldn't be a few seconds where you aren't looking in her direction. For that matter, there shouldn't be one second where you aren't looking in her direction. Practice stopping suddenly while keeping your eyes focused on one object. Practice turning around to skate backwards without allowing your eyes to leave an object.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Jonathan Lee on June 16, 2009, 05:26:05 pm
I have never seen a pack referee mistakenly call off a jam.  This includes times when I know they were given the authority to call off jams. 

I have seen it... and it's a bad situation.

Ditto.

Sorry, but if you're a pack ref, you won't always know what the jam ref knows - if that jammer had just got a fourth minor, or a major, or got a major as she started to call it off, or is not lead jammer, or lost lead jammer status.

And I've been in the position of being a pack ref, and seeing the jammer calling it, and not hearing those four whistles. It's tempting, but if you don't know exactly what's going on, resist temptation.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Bishop on June 16, 2009, 09:50:44 pm
I have never seen a pack referee mistakenly call off a jam.  This includes times when I know they were given the authority to call off jams.  

I have seen it... and it's a bad situation.

Ditto.

Sorry, but if you're a pack ref, you won't always know what the jam ref knows - if that jammer had just got a fourth minor, or a major, or got a major as she started to call it off, or is not lead jammer, or lost lead jammer status.

And I've been in the position of being a pack ref, and seeing the jammer calling it, and not hearing those four whistles. It's tempting, but if you don't know exactly what's going on, resist temptation.


Well, just because I hadn't seen it, didn't mean I didn't think it happened.  I have witnessed a Jammer Ref mistakenly call off a Jam because they thought their Jammer was calling it when she was just going for an assist or something.  It was messy and unpleasant (it wasn't me, thankfully)


I have got to hear the hows and whys of a pack ref mistakenly calling off a jam.  I mean, pesonally, I don't see it happening very often (I've never seen it, but you know what I mean).  Its seems pretty obvious to me who the Lead Jammer is because of the Jam Ref holding our their right arm.  

In my present reality, it is far more likely that a Jam Ref will miss calling off a jam than a pack ref mistakenly calling a Jam off.  For me, I think it's also far more likely that the former will have more game changing implications than the latter.  I mean, think about it, how likely is that a Jammer would benefit from intentionally calling off a Jam when not Lead Jammer?  She'll get one major penalty at the least.  And IMO, a Jammer who calls off a Jam because she mistakenly thinks she's Lead Jammer needs to accept the resonsibility for her own actions.  If it were "ok" intentionally try to call off a Jam when not Lead then there wouldn't be a minor penalty for unsuccessful effort.  

At any rate, I think it all goes back to balancing the variables that I previously mentioned; the numbers, arrangement, experience, and skating skill of the referees.  So, I'll consent that perhaps the variables you all have to deal with on a regular basis favor not empowering pack refs to call off jams.  Whatever the case, I think deciding who's allowed to call off Jams would be something best handled in a pre-bout meeting as opposed to adopting a one-size-fits-all "best practice".

 
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: DayGlo Divine on June 16, 2009, 10:16:59 pm
I have never seen a pack referee mistakenly call off a jam.  This includes times when I know they were given the authority to call off jams. 

I have seen it... and it's a bad situation.

I have seen this too. Once had an OPR "do me a favor" by calling off a jam because my jammer was signaling a call-off from the ground. No one gave him the authority to do it, and in his mad rush to play "one-up the jammer ref," he missed the fact that I had just called a major on her.  DayGlo was not pleased. >:(
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Major Wood on June 16, 2009, 10:23:12 pm
This is one place where I would be very concerned with as a visiting ref. I don't think this is a place where there should be any deviation. Know your role. A pack ref shouldn't be calling off jams for a jammer for a multitude of reasons.

You're saying it should be obvious who the lead jammer is based on the jammer ref's hand signals. You aren't taking into consideration the fact that the jammer may have committed a last second major that the jammer ref was about to call.

You are looking at a small subset of possibilities. The number of times a jammer tries to call it off when she is lead will be far greater than the number of times she tries to call it off when not lead. The number of times that a jammer will try to call off a jam immediately following a major penalty will be relatively small as compared to when she is still lead.
The smaller number in both cases is the number of chances a jammer ref has to make a mistake in calling off the jam. Any time you add a ref who is allowed to call off the jam as well, you are multiplying that chance of mistakes.

Also, you are worrying about game effect. Yes, it has an effect if a jammer ref takes an extra 5 seconds to call off a jam. In trying to counteract that, you have a possibility of messing with the balance created by jammer refs swapping teams at the half. Screwing up that balance can have a very large game effect as well.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Jonathan Lee on June 16, 2009, 11:06:09 pm
I have got to hear the hows and whys of a pack ref mistakenly calling off a jam.  I mean, pesonally, I don't see it happening very often (I've never seen it, but you know what I mean).  Its seems pretty obvious to me who the Lead Jammer is because of the Jam Ref holding our their right arm.  

The times I've seen it, it comes down to just what I mentioned earlier: The pack ref - inside or outside, I've seen both - not knowing what's going on.
Not seeing that a jammer had lost lead jammer status by going to the box. Not seeing that a jam ref was not pointing their right arm at the skater trying to call it off. And, as in DayGlo's experience, one that I also have seen, not knowing that the jam ref was about to call them off for major/fourth minor.

In my present reality, it is far more likely that a Jam Ref will miss calling off a jam than a pack ref mistakenly calling a Jam off.  For me, I think it's also far more likely that the former will have more game changing implications than the latter.

From my experience, and what I've seen:
The impact on the game of a jam ref missing calling off a jam = 1-3 extra seconds of gameplay, 0-2 points scored for the other team (estimates from memory)
The impact on the game of a pack ref mistakenly calling a jam off = cut the scoring pass of a lead jammer short, no way to tell how long the jam really would have gone; cut the initial pass of the other jammer short, no way to know if she would have gotten lead

The second seems like a much bigger impact.

A jam ref missing/being late in calling off the jam when it should be called could - in certain situations - result in the other team getting, at most, 5 points in the span of time during which the jammer is trying to call it and the ref actually calls it.

If a pack ref calls it when it should not be called, you've cut the jam short, and prevented any amount of jam time that would have happened from happening. Circumstances of jams vary, obviously, so the impact could be anything from preventing 1 seconds to even 1:50 of play, and anything from zero possible points to 20. Who knows, it would all depend on the teams and gameplay and people in the box and tons of other variables.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Professor Murder on June 17, 2009, 03:34:35 am
As a head ref, I'm typically very polite and calm on the track in the middle of a crowd.

There are exceptions - i.e., when a pack referee calls off the jam before anyone else.

Echo to call - lawd a'mighty, echo the call.  Do not initiate it.

There are at a minimum, 4 distinct skating referee positions on a derby track that is fully staffed.

There is a corresponding division of labor and list of responsibilities for each of those positions.

In many cases, such as this, "going above and beyond" is not that, but, in fact, stepping on toes and fucking things up.

Referee crews are teams, and work best as teams.  If you cannot work as a team member, you need to learn how.

Jam refs call the jam off except for (1) injury and (2) time expiration of the jam.  Always.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: mick hawkins on June 17, 2009, 06:22:57 am
I have never seen a pack referee mistakenly call off a jam.  This includes times when I know they were given the authority to call off jams. 

I have seen it... and it's a bad situation.

I have seen this too. Once had an OPR "do me a favor" by calling off a jam because my jammer was signaling a call-off from the ground. No one gave him the authority to do it, and in his mad rush to play "one-up the jammer ref," he missed the fact that I had just called a major on her.  DayGlo was not pleased. >:(

yep... ive had a similar thing too

an inside pack ref called off the jam when he saw the jammer signal... totally missing that i'd just majored the jammer

very frustrating... and impacts on the game

PM summed up my feelings on this perfectly...
Quote from: Professor Murder
In many cases, such as this, "going above and beyond" is not that, but, in fact, stepping on toes and fucking things up.

Referee crews are teams, and work best as teams.  If you cannot work as a team member, you need to learn how.


Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: ttjustice on June 17, 2009, 04:41:02 pm
As a head ref, I'm typically very polite and calm on the track in the middle of a crowd.

There are exceptions - i.e., when a pack referee calls off the jam before anyone else.

Echo to call - lawd a'mighty, echo the call.  Do not initiate it.

There are at a minimum, 4 distinct skating referee positions on a derby track that is fully staffed.

There is a corresponding division of labor and list of responsibilities for each of those positions.

In many cases, such as this, "going above and beyond" is not that, but, in fact, stepping on toes and fucking things up.

Referee crews are teams, and work best as teams.  If you cannot work as a team member, you need to learn how.

Jam refs call the jam off except for (1) injury and (2) time expiration of the jam.  Always.

Well said Murder!  Having reffed under his system for the first time a couple weeks ago as a guest ref in Cinci I thought it worked great.  I also loved the fact that (as I recall) his last words to the ref crew at the pre bout meeting were:

" Remember to judge on impact to the game.  Rollerderby is a contact sport but contact or someone falling down does not necessarily mean illegal impact occurred.  If you see it call it, otherwise if your not sure let it go."

Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Bishop on June 17, 2009, 05:44:03 pm
This is one place where I would be very concerned with as a visiting ref.
Why be concerned?  Isn’t this what pre-bout meetings are for?  If there isn’t a best practice or common convention (one that is shared with everyone) then one shouldn’t be too upset or surprised if someone else does something differently.

I don't think this is a place where there should be any deviation. Know your role. A pack ref shouldn't be calling off jams for a jammer for a multitude of reasons.
What role?  Could someone please direct me to a place where these roles are defined?

You aren't taking into consideration the fact that the jammer may have committed a last second major that the jammer ref was about to call.
I am referring to situations where it is obvious that the Jam Ref is out of position or that their view is obstructed.  Root cause: inexperience and/or poor skating skill.

The number of times a jammer tries to call it off when she is lead will be far greater than the number of times she tries to call it off when not lead.
Yes, my experience indicates the same.  That’s why it’s important to call the jam off quickly and why pack refs can be so helpful by doing so.

The number of times that a jammer will try to call off a jam immediately following a major penalty will be relatively small as compared to when she is still lead.
Yes, my experience indicates the same.

The smaller number in both cases is the number of chances a jammer ref has to make a mistake in calling off the jam.
Mistake as in being out of position or having their view obstructed?  If so, my experience is not the same.  Root cause: inexperience and/or poor skating skill.

Any time you add a ref who is allowed to call off the jam as well, you are multiplying that chance of mistakes.
True.  However competent and observant pack referees have proven to be very helpful in my experience.  In the situations that I’ve had to deal with, the jam ref has been out of position because they fell down or their view was obviously obstructed.  So, if a pack referee uses proper discretion they can be very helpful.  That’s the problem when one doesn’t have the luxury of experienced jam refs with very good skating skills.

Also, you are worrying about game effect. Yes, it has an effect if a jammer ref takes an extra 5 seconds to call off a jam. In trying to counteract that, you have a possibility of messing with the balance created by jammer refs swapping teams at the half. Screwing up that balance can have a very large game effect as well.
While the most probable scenario is that the variables will balance themselves out – it’s more likely that they won’t.  Plus, I’m referring to situations where it’s obvious that the jam ref is out of position or has their view obstructed.  

There is a corresponding division of labor and list of responsibilities for each of those positions.
There is?  What are they?  I want to know.
  
In many cases, such as this, "going above and beyond" is not that, but, in fact, stepping on toes and fucking things up.
I agree.  However, what qualifies as “going above and beyond” will vary and is probably based on personal experience.  I’m pragmatic about issues such as the one at hand – I deal with the problems I do have rather than the ones I’ve never had to deal with.  

Referee crews are teams, and work best as teams.  
I agree.  I count myself fortunate in having a sharp OPR in Gunshow who has called off a jam or two when it was obvious it need to be called.  Do not interpret the previous sentence as being argumentative.  I’m simply pointing out that being a team player is going to require different actions with differing expectations.  

If you cannot work as a team member, you need to learn how.
I have never and will never do anything that’s against a Head Referee’s wishes.  However, there is no best practice listed anywhere that I know of (including the Referee Best Practices posted on this website) stating that pack refs should never call off jams.  

And what this “Stepping on toes” and “One upping” business?  Sometimes referees have to have the humility to realize when they need help.  Conversely, referees also need to have the humility to stay within their expected role – just make sure they understand what that role is.  

Well said Murder!  Having reffed under his system for the first time a couple weeks ago as a guest ref in Cinci I thought it worked great.  I also loved the fact that (as I recall) his last words to the ref crew at the pre bout meeting were:

" Remember to judge on impact to the game.  Rollerderby is a contact sport but contact or someone falling down does not necessarily mean illegal impact occurred.  If you see it call it, otherwise if your not sure let it go."

I am truly envious of the opportunity to work with an experienced referee with a deep understanding of the game.  Since I have no handbook to go by and no experienced referees to work with, I have to make up and make due as I go.  

Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Major Wood on June 17, 2009, 06:12:41 pm
This is one place where I would be very concerned with as a visiting ref.
Why be concerned?  Isn’t this what pre-bout meetings are for?  If there isn’t a best practice or common convention (one that is shared with everyone) then one shouldn’t be too upset or surprised if someone else does something differently.

I'd be concerned for the integrity of the game. It is a common enough practice that I have not been involved with a bout that has even suggested the possibility of pack referees calling off the jam for a jammer.

I don't think this is a place where there should be any deviation. Know your role. A pack ref shouldn't be calling off jams for a jammer for a multitude of reasons.
What role?  Could someone please direct me to a place where these roles are defined?

This isn't defined, it is assumed. Jammer refs are working directly with their jammer. Just as pack referees should not be calling minors on jammers (as per best practices), pack referees should not be calling off jams for jammers.

You aren't taking into consideration the fact that the jammer may have committed a last second major that the jammer ref was about to call.
I am referring to situations where it is obvious that the Jam Ref is out of position or that their view is obstructed.  Root cause: inexperience and/or poor skating skill.

Pure and simple, I don't care if the jammer ref is inexperienced or can't skate well. If they are the one picked to do the job, let them do it to the best of their ability. Don't provide a crutch.

The number of times a jammer tries to call it off when she is lead will be far greater than the number of times she tries to call it off when not lead.
Yes, my experience indicates the same.  That’s why it’s important to call the jam off quickly and why pack refs can be so helpful by doing so.


The number of times that a jammer will try to call off a jam immediately following a major penalty will be relatively small as compared to when she is still lead.
Yes, my experience indicates the same.

The smaller number in both cases is the number of chances a jammer ref has to make a mistake in calling off the jam.
Mistake as in being out of position or having their view obstructed?  If so, my experience is not the same.  Root cause: inexperience and/or poor skating skill.

Any time you add a ref who is allowed to call off the jam as well, you are multiplying that chance of mistakes.
True.  However competent and observant pack referees have proven to be very helpful in my experience.  In the situations that I’ve had to deal with, the jam ref has been out of position because they fell down or their view was obviously obstructed.  So, if a pack referee uses proper discretion they can be very helpful.  That’s the problem when one doesn’t have the luxury of experienced jam refs with very good skating skills.

The point of all of that is that the relatively small number of times where a mistake can be made (mistake, as in mistakenly calling off the jam) is made into a MUCH larger number when you add pack refs calling off the jam into the equation.

Also, you are worrying about game effect. Yes, it has an effect if a jammer ref takes an extra 5 seconds to call off a jam. In trying to counteract that, you have a possibility of messing with the balance created by jammer refs swapping teams at the half. Screwing up that balance can have a very large game effect as well.
While the most probable scenario is that the variables will balance themselves out – it’s more likely that they won’t.  Plus, I’m referring to situations where it’s obvious that the jam ref is out of position or has their view obstructed.  

They will certainly balance each other out moreso than if you add more variables (pack refs involved in call-offs). If the jam ref's view is obstructed and you (as a pack ref) see their jammer trying to call the jam off, tell the jammer ref so they can make the decision to call it off. Communication is key here.
DON'T have your pack refs call off the jam. You are providing a crutch to your jammer refs, as well as teaching your pack refs bad habits.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Professor Murder on June 17, 2009, 06:33:40 pm
Quote
There is a corresponding division of labor and list of responsibilities for each of those positions.
There is?  What are they?  I want to know.

That would be a good thread to start/discussion to have.  Too much to list here - but we all conform to many of them already.  Pack refs don't track points scored in a jam, for instance.
  
Quote
In many cases, such as this, "going above and beyond" is not that, but, in fact, stepping on toes and fucking things up.
I agree.  However, what qualifies as “going above and beyond” will vary and is probably based on personal experience.  I’m pragmatic about issues such as the one at hand – I deal with the problems I do have rather than the ones I’ve never had to deal with.

GAAB = not using the proper means of communication or taking something into your own hands that is not yours.  Flying from the outside to the inside to send off a skater you saw commit a major, for instance.  You've shirked your duties on the outside.  Drop it off to the inside, if you can.  

GAAB = not using the resources (other referees) available to you.

Quote
Referee crews are teams, and work best as teams.  
I agree.  I count myself fortunate in having a sharp OPR in Gunshow who has called off a jam or two when it was obvious it need to be called.  Do not interpret the previous sentence as being argumentative.  I’m simply pointing out that being a team player is going to require different actions with differing expectations.

Right.  It may have been useful, but I still disagree that they should have called it.  

Quote
If you cannot work as a team member, you need to learn how.
I have never and will never do anything that’s against a Head Referee’s wishes.  However, there is no best practice listed anywhere that I know of (including the Referee Best Practices posted on this website) stating that pack refs should never call off jams.

That document is not updated but once per year.  You'll have to have faith that this is the standard practice for most other leagues, as well as understand the rationale behind why this is the case.  
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Duncan Disorderly on June 17, 2009, 07:21:44 pm
I have witnessed a Jammer Ref mistakenly call off a Jam because they thought their Jammer was calling it when she was just going for an assist or something.  It was messy and unpleasant (it wasn't me, thankfully)
I have been that jam ref, being too keen on the whistle and misinterpreting a move the jammer made as being the the first split second movements of the jam calling motion. Thankfully it was the last jam of a practice scrimmage session, but both teams did stop and give me a look like I'd just punched a baby or something. NEVER WILL I DO IT AGAIN.

EDIT to address the subject at hand: I think it would be more useful for pack refs to mirror the jam-calling-off hands-on-hips motion so that the jam ref can see it is being done and call it even when out of position or unsighted, rather than calling it themselves. That way it saves on potential confusion, it maintains the consistency of there being only two refs calling jams off, and should ensure that the jam ref can always be aware of what their jammer is doing, even if totally unsighted for whatever reason.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Bishop on June 17, 2009, 09:25:56 pm
Communication is key here.
Here's my takeaway from this discussion.  +1 for that. 

DON'T have your pack refs call off the jam. You are providing a crutch to your jammer refs, as well as teaching your pack refs bad habits.
Well, none of my referees are delegated to one specific role per se.  I try to work them in everywhere with the limiting factor being skating skill. 

Duncan, Hunter, Prof M, DayGlo – thank you all for providing input and insight into this discussion. 
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Darkjester on June 18, 2009, 05:10:10 am
We should also be clear and concise. Only the Lead Jam ref should call off the Jam if the Lead Jammer is signaling it.  Said LJ may have just committed a Major penalty and be in the process of being sent to the box by the LJ Ref, so if another ref see's the signal and calls it inadvertantly they've countermanned the LJ Ref responsibility and given the Jammer now 2 Majors ( One for the initial action, 1 for calling it off illegally.)

However, in the case of an injury, spectator/debris/safety issue, ANY ref can call off the Jam at anytime. The HR, Jam Refs might be so engrossed in the pack or their Jam refs they miss something potentially disastrous that the jam needed calling off for.

Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Bishop on June 22, 2009, 03:43:36 pm
I have got to hear the hows and whys of a pack ref mistakenly calling off a jam.  I mean, pesonally, I don't see it happening very often (I've never seen it, but you know what I mean).  Its seems pretty obvious to me who the Lead Jammer is because of the Jam Ref holding out their right arm.  

As would fate would have it … especially since fate likes fu@king with me  ::)… I have now witnessed, or rather experienced, an inside pack referee mistakenly calling off a jam … and I didn't especially like it.

I was jam reffing and my jammer, who was not Lead, tried to call off the jam.  I knew she wasn't Lead and was giving her the Illegal Procedure forearm roll motion when I heard those dreaded four short whistle blasts over my left shoulder.  I looked around and barked "Who did that?!!!"  The responsible party fessed up and I got confirmation the two minute time limit hadn't expired.  I informed the jammer who had just entered the track to return to her bench, skated to the bench and directed the jammer to the box.  




Ironically, I was going to try to implement the "only the jam ref can call off the jam" practice.  As God as my witness, I was going to try it because I was also serving as a Head Referee for the bout.  Since it was a randomized inter-intra league bout, I figured it would be the best time to test drive the practice.  The only reason I didn't do it was because I had to keep training NSOs (my top five "referee pet peeves" list has a new addition – people who swipe my NSOs after I've spent 10 minutes training them!!! >:()  Anyway, as a result of having to find and train more NSOs, the ref meeting got rushed and I forgot to mention anything about who could call off the jam.  

 
Ironic and timely – this absolutely did happen.  Incidently, this situation illustrates what happens when a pack referee does not use proper discretion when calling off a jam.  I was right with my jammer – looking at her, shaking my head, and giving her the IP hand signal …
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Brad Religion on June 22, 2009, 05:01:21 pm
So, uh... I was head ref for the first time over the weekend. I whistled a jam dead on the LJ's signal once because her jam ref was communicating something with the inside.

I prefer letting my jam refs do that job, but I didn't feel bad about it in that case, either.

As far as echoing goes, we had trouble in a recent bout with the non-lead jam ref counting points during the echoed whistle blasts... Weird things happened as a result. On the other hand, the venue we played in this past weekend (for the first time) was smaller than I'm used to and our fans were packed in tighter. As a result, the jam ref's whistles were apparently harder to hear/distinguish because we all had to echo the four blasts several times to get the jam to actually stop.

Yeah. I have no definite answers or ideas in my mind. Just sharing what happened to us.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Major Wood on June 22, 2009, 05:25:40 pm
The answers I have for you are the following:

The jammer ref needs to learn proper whistle technique.
When echoing the four whistles, every four whistles needs to be distinct from the others. Noone should begin to echo until the first four whistles are complete and about a second has elapsed. Allow for approximately a second between echoes.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: JoeXCore on June 22, 2009, 06:02:40 pm
...and every have good whistles and practice using them.

Fox 40s can be VERY loud when used properly.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Brad Religion on June 22, 2009, 06:12:26 pm
Okay, to clear up potential confusion, I wasn't working the bout where there were scoring issues (Curse this broken leg), but it was a mess that made me nervous about so many whistles blowing at the end of the jam.

And yes, my jam ref needs his new whistle. I've got one that I'm going to give him at practice this week, in fact. He's managed with his crappy old whistle to this point, but this venue was almost completely different from our usual. No one had a problem hearing my Fox 40 at all.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: JoeXCore on June 22, 2009, 09:04:46 pm
sometimes a guess is the right answer.

Fox 40 > shitty whistles
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: DayGlo Divine on June 22, 2009, 09:43:49 pm
Last night, I realized that sometimes, even a properly used Fox 40 isn't even enough. My jammer, who had lead, called off the jam. I blew the jam dead twice myself and heard at least one or two echoes from elsewhere on the track. The pack heard NONE OF THEM. It was a pretty spectacular "Mystery Science Derby 3000" moment, and I may invest in a Sonik after all.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: BatFasterson on June 22, 2009, 09:53:34 pm
Last night, I realized that sometimes, even a properly used Fox 40 isn't even enough. My jammer, who had lead, called off the jam. I blew the jam dead twice myself and heard at least one or two echoes from elsewhere on the track. The pack heard NONE OF THEM. It was a pretty spectacular "Mystery Science Derby 3000" moment, and I may invest in a Sonik after all.

Most of the time my Fox 40 has been sufficient but I've had a couple of similar experiences. One was at a smaller rink that was playing a loud metal/punk soundtrack and it was difficult to hear. The other was at Dorton, when the crowd was hyped and the pack was at the other end of the track.

Both times I tried to handle the situation first by making sure I was facing the pack and, when that didn't work, by racing toward the other refs and continuing to blow the jam dead. I didn't feel entirely comfortable leaving my jammer but in each case she was skating in open track and calling the jam anyway.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Professor Murder on June 22, 2009, 10:44:10 pm
Are y'all using hand signals to end the jam as well?  You know, mimicking the jammers "flappy flappy flappy" signal?
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Major Wood on June 22, 2009, 10:49:50 pm
Are y'all using hand signals to end the jam as well?  You know, mimicking the jammers "flappy flappy flappy" signal?

I'm making that a standard practice here in Nashville. Still, I'm making the switch to only Fox 40 Soniks. I've found the Dolfins crack too easily.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Brad Religion on June 22, 2009, 11:10:07 pm
"My" crew - such as it was - did. I say "my" only because at this last bout myself and one other guy were the only refs actually affiliated with our league.

I will also be making this standard practice. I'm outfitting all of them with Fox 40 Classics. Why? Because one of our girls is a lifeguard, and she gave me a bag full of them.

As an aside, the other night at a scrimmage, I fired off my two blasts to start the jammers and all the lifeguards from the city pool next door came running. Two blasts to a lifeguard means "drop what you're doing, I need help right now."
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Great Barrier Ref on June 22, 2009, 11:18:51 pm
Are y'all using hand signals to end the jam as well?  You know, mimicking the jammers "flappy flappy flappy" signal?

I was just about to say this. Hadn't seen it before this weekend, seems like a good idea to me.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Bishop on June 22, 2009, 11:42:40 pm
Last night, I realized that sometimes, even a properly used Fox 40 isn't even enough. My jammer, who had lead, called off the jam. I blew the jam dead twice myself and heard at least one or two echoes from elsewhere on the track. The pack heard NONE OF THEM. It was a pretty spectacular "Mystery Science Derby 3000" moment, and I may invest in a Sonik after all.

Hehe ... it was pretty crazy.  :D  Well, WE heard you just fine and we were stationed at turn three.  I believe you first blew to the jam dead at turn one?  It looked like the skaters paused for a few seconds, looked around, and then decided to keep skating.  They faked me out because I thought they were just skating back around the track for jollies.  Your partners in stripes didn’t help you out either – no echoing whistles blasts on their part.  But they may have been faked out too. 

I could go all directions with theories - the “magic whistle theory” where the sound waves bounced around and cancelled themselves out so that it only sounded like one whistle blast due the previously documented freakish properties of the rink floor which were discussed  here (http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=413.msg7026#msg7026), etc. 

However, I think that it all comes down to the decay of the moral fabric of our society and the subsequent lack of respect for authority; I think they heard the whistle blasts, but just decided to keep on skating.  It’s sad day indeed when rollergirls stop respecting the whistle … woe are we in the stripes.   :'(
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: DayGlo Divine on June 23, 2009, 04:06:14 am
Last night, I realized that sometimes, even a properly used Fox 40 isn't even enough. My jammer, who had lead, called off the jam. I blew the jam dead twice myself and heard at least one or two echoes from elsewhere on the track. The pack heard NONE OF THEM. It was a pretty spectacular "Mystery Science Derby 3000" moment, and I may invest in a Sonik after all.

Hehe ... it was pretty crazy.  :D  Well, WE heard you just fine and we were stationed at turn three.  I believe you first blew to the jam dead at turn one?  It looked like the skaters paused for a few seconds, looked around, and then decided to keep skating.  They faked me out because I thought they were just skating back around the track for jollies.  Your partners in stripes didn’t help you out either – no echoing whistles blasts on their part.  But they may have been faked out too.  

I could go all directions with theories - the “magic whistle theory” where the sound waves bounced around and cancelled themselves out so that it only sounded like one whistle blast due the previously documented freakish properties of the rink floor which were discussed  here (http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=413.msg7026#msg7026), etc.  

However, I think that it all comes down to the decay of the moral fabric of our society and the subsequent lack of respect for authority; I think they heard the whistle blasts, but just decided to keep on skating.  It’s sad day indeed when rollergirls stop respecting the whistle … woe are we in the stripes.   :'(


I'm glad someone heard me. I was indeed at Turn 1 when I blew the first whistle, and at the apex when I blew the second. I heard another from Turn 4, which should have been enough, but apparently not. Last night in general was challenging. The outside pack refs seemed to be struggling with the narrowness of the straightaway by the bench (which I had trouble with last time as well) and the Turn 2/4 whiteboard stations. Two of us were completely exhausted from reffing other bouts that weekend. I was one of them, having reffed Charm/Texas in Boston the day before, and I know it showed. During the first bout, the master volume of the PA was so loud that we refs couldn't hear each other from a few feet away. I got the announcers to lower it for the second game, but it was still an added challenge. And if you thought that floor was grippy before, it's even more so now; the rink owner had it re-coated on Wednesday. But this time, I had the right wheels for it, and I stretched enough beforehand that shin splints were not an issue.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Bishop on October 20, 2009, 10:30:38 pm
Ref Meeting:

1. Go over the whiteboards/scoreboards/penalty box/game clocks/jam clocks/etc locations and functions. (Ref Neck)
2. Stress to the outside refs how they need to stay on the jammer if she's on the outside and communicate to the jammer ref anything about her status - jammer refs depend on them! (Johnny Zebra)
3. Tell the outside refs what formation they're doing- half lap skate and wait, full lap, etc. (I inevitably have to ask every time because they never think to tell us) (Jessticular Fortitude)
4.  Don't forget to use hand signals when relaying penalties to whiteboards/ trackers.  Speak loudly and clearly, especially if trackers are new. (Timothy T. Justice).
5. Mouth guards. Policy for calling. Make sure all refs enforce it the same way (Options here: http://zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=104.0)  (Johnny Zebra)
6. Determine who and when does the skater equipment check (I know this should be a given but a reminder for fledgling leagues) (Death by Roxy)
7. Reconfirm that any ref can call a major on any player and call the jam off at anytime, but only jam refs can call minors against jammers (Bronco, per WFTDA best practices) Also clarify which refs are empowered to call off jammer called jams (Bishop)
8. Establish procedure to start the pack (jam timer or head ref starts, hand up 5 or 10 seconds before, hand down on pack start or jam start) (Bronco)
9. Going back to number 1, stress to the jammer refs that they should look for input from the outside pack refs when the latter are in position to see a pass near the outside line. (DayGlo)
10. If there are new people in NSO rules, make sure that they are comfortable with the jobs they've been assigned, and if they aren't (or have any questions), address those after the meeting. (DayGlo)
11. Seemingly obvious one, but it does come up. All questions should be directed to the head ref. (Major Wood)
12. Inform refs to call for an official timeout if the penalty tracker and/or score keeper needs a moment between jams to make sure their stuff is adding up right. (Stegoscorus)
13. Instruct Jammer Refs to check the number of minors that their Jammer has prior to each jam and to inform their Jammer of the number of minors she's incurred by holding out a finger for each minor prior to the start of each jam. (Bishop via Rhubarb via Mason-Dixon Roller Vixens via Charm City refs)
14. Instruct Jammer Refs to mimic the Jammer call off signal when thier Jammer calls a jam (Professor Murder)
15. Specify team colors for verbal calls. (Professor Murder)
16. Specify where referees are meeting between periods to discuss the bout thus far, pointing out areas where the crew has excelled, and where there needs to be better enforcement/consistency.  And, of course, to talk through mistakes and hiccups should they occur. (Professor Murder)
17. OPRs to look at the PB as they skate by. Not only to check for additional penalties, but so they don't get smashed by a skater re-entering after her turn in the box. (Brad Religion)
18. Establish an understanding on how OPR refs and players returning from the PB in the clockwise direction should yield.
19. Explain to Jammer Refs exactly how you want points reported and introduce them to point trackers. Make sure both parties understand what is expected of them.  (Bishop)

===============


Captains Meeting:

1. Go over the whiteboards/scoreboards/penalty box/game clocks/jam clocks/etc locations and functions. (Ref Neck)
2. Inform them of the need to adhere to timeouts as timed (60 seconds); explain consequences for not doing so. (Johnny Zebra)
3. Explain what will happen if they cuss out the crowd, refs, skaters, flip the bird, etc. so they know up front. (Jessticles)
4. Remind them where the penalty box pass line is/ penalty for not using it and stress "communication from the box" rules being used at that bout (especially if non-wftda). (Timothy T. Justice).
5. Mouth guards. Policy for calling. (Johnny Zebra)
6. Explain/decide policy for skater formation at beginning of the jam to make sure everyone understands how it works (Johnny Zebra)
7. Equipment check as above (Death by Roxy)
8. Determine exactly who will be allowed to talk with the head ref, and that the team communicates to the head ref only through their Captains & Alternates. (Bronco)
9. Reinforce that you want to see a fair and safe bout - this makes it easier to approach the coaches/captains later about safety issues (Bronco)
10. Explain "both jammers off the tack" procedure and remind captains that the last jam of the period will end at its natural conclusion; believe it or not, it still sometimes needs to be explained. (DayGlo w/ update by Bishop)
11. Explain that there is very little time between jams to do what you need, so requests for official review must be brief. (Major Wood)
12. Coaches return to benches when asked by the head ref.  Only punishment is ejection. (Bronco)
13. Players must remain seated in their seats (not the floor).  Any players milling around the penalty box, esp. to chat, will be placed into the penalty box. (Bronco)
14. Go over the Official Review procedure (Bat Fasterson)
15. (If applicable) Explain that points are updated per pass by the scoreboard operator.  (Bishop)

===============

NSO Meeting:

1. Go over the whiteboards/scoreboards/penalty box/game clocks/jam clocks/etc locations and functions. (Ref Neck)
2 If there are new people in NSO roles, make sure that they are comfortable with the jobs they've been assigned, and if they aren't (or have any questions) (DayGlo)
3. Remind the penalty tracker /score keeper/penalty box timer that it's OK if they need an Official Timeout between jams to make sure their stuff is adding up right. (Stegoscorus)
4. If you have a jam timer, explain to her/him what cues to look for prior to starting a jam. (i.e. explain to her that s/he NEVER starts the jam if s/he doesn't see you, the head ref, on the track and in position or otherwise giving her/him the thumbs up to go. (Johnny Zebra). OR tell the jam timer to ALWAYS start the next jam after thirty seconds, no matter are, unless a ref explicitly tell them to wait. (Rev. Riot)
5. (If applicable) Explain that referees have been instructed to specify team colors for reporting penalties. (Professor Murder)
6. Explain that Jammer refs will switch teams between periods. And explain how Jammer Refs are going to be reporting points to the point tracker(s) and score board operator (Bishop)
7. Explain penalty box procedures with the penalty box timer(s) as appropriate or as their experience dictates. (Bishop)
8. Explain that NSOs are not to issues penalties or otherwise instruct skaters (except for "stand" and "done" by PB officials).  If they see a potential problem, notify the closest referee as the situation allows. (Bishop)  
9. Don't use the word "Go" when releasing a skater from the penalty box.  Adrenaline filled skaters have been known to take this as an instruction and skate out only to get an IP major for following that instruction.  Use 4 3 2 1 clear or equiv. (noidd)
10. Make sure the jam timer knows that jams do not end with the period clock.  (Bishop)

Getting ready to Head Ref this weekend.  I am curious, what all do you check for once the bout has begun?  Something I did this past weekend was check to make sure the point trackers were reporting the score properly (and I am so glad I did - Sheesh!  ::) )

Also, what about between periods?  I usually take the initiative to approach the captains and go over any concerns.  If it's obvious they don't really understand how to track points, I offer suggestions and explain how the jam refs are reporting points.  Maybe I'm stepping into a gray area there but I want teams to feel like they being treated fairly and points are a common issue.  I've even taken to adding up the score on the point tracking sheets as a second person over check between periods. Also, I'll check the other tracking sheets to make sure things are being reported properly (including the jam # with the penalty, verify who was in the box at the end of the period with the PB staff, and stuff like that.)
 
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: BatFasterson on October 20, 2009, 10:43:02 pm
As part of my captain's meeting I always ask for them to meet me briefly in the middle of the rink immediately after the first half ends.
That gives a chance for them to talk about what they're seeing, make any complaints within earshot of the other captains and generally iron out any quirks in the bout so far.
Usually it only lasts a minute or two and I think it generally keeps the tone bright and the bout more transparent.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: matt adore on October 21, 2009, 08:29:07 pm
I've just taken over as head ref for my league (I've filled the head ref posistion a few times)so this is a great list. One thing that I like to do a little differently with the captains meetingings is to have them in front of the entire team. This way I know that every skater on the track knows what is expected. And there is no chance of a captain or coach miscommunication anything I told them.

Someone may have already suggested this. I didn't read the whole thread.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Major Wood on October 23, 2009, 05:11:22 am
I've just taken over as head ref for my league (I've filled the head ref posistion a few times)so this is a great list. One thing that I like to do a little differently with the captains meetingings is to have them in front of the entire team. This way I know that every skater on the track knows what is expected. And there is no chance of a captain or coach miscommunication anything I told them.

Someone may have already suggested this. I didn't read the whole thread.

In many cases, this is not even close to feasible.
Beyond that, part of the job of a captain is to relay information they receive from the head ref to the rest of the team. If you convey something to the captains and they don't tell their teams, it's not your fault.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: mick hawkins on October 23, 2009, 05:15:52 am
good points by MW

i'd also say that having a meeting with the whole teams will open you up to questions from 28 players... not just the captains

i find it good to keep the communication lines consistent too
(that is - during the game only the captains should come and talk to the HR)
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: bronco on October 23, 2009, 06:41:00 am
Good communication lines are essential - otherwise 28 girls all want to know about their penalty and it becomes chaos. Only the captain or designated alternate should talk to the HR.  Not surprisingly, they are also the only ones who can call a timeout or ask for an official review.   As a Head Ref, I tell my refs to ignore any skater that asks them about penalties (except jammers asking about minors before the jam starts), and suggest that the skaters learn the hand signals (each ref gives the signal twice, first to the skater, second to the penalty tracker).

If a skater is harping on a ref, have that ref suggest the skater send her captain to talk the head ref. 

And don't be surprised if this behavior takes two seasons to learn, or has to be re-learned in the middle of the season.  It did for us :)

i find it good to keep the communication lines consistent too
(that is - during the game only the captains should come and talk to the HR)
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Darkjester on October 23, 2009, 09:44:09 am
I think Matt Adore is referring to the pre-bout Captains meeting; not any/all Captains/DA Rules discussions or Official Reviews.

Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: noidd on October 23, 2009, 01:44:10 pm
I've just taken over as head ref for my league (I've filled the head ref posistion a few times)so this is a great list. One thing that I like to do a little differently with the captains meetingings is to have them in front of the entire team. This way I know that every skater on the track knows what is expected. And there is no chance of a captain or coach miscommunication anything I told them.

Quote from: major wood
If you convey something to the captains and they don't tell their teams, it's not your fault.

Although I agree with the statement that if the captains don't pass information on it's not your fault... I do see an argument that says that being sure all players receive pre-bout communication reduces the likelyhood of issues later in the game.

As long as it's made clear during the meeting that only the captains and alternates may speak during the meeting (to keep it brief) I like the idea.

Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Jessticular Fortitude on October 23, 2009, 10:05:12 pm
One good thing about only having a pre-bout meeting with the captains and alternates instead of the whole team is you get some quality time to commit their faces to memory. That way when they try to call a timeout, you don't have to waste time figuring out if they have the authority to do so.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: matt adore on October 26, 2009, 06:27:49 pm
I think Matt Adore is referring to the pre-bout Captains meeting; not any/all Captains/DA Rules discussions or Official Reviews.



Yes. As Dark Jester pointed out I was reffering to the pre-bout meetings. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. Once the bout starts the only people allowed to address me are the captain or DA. As I pointed out I'm not the most experienced head ref with only 2 bouts (as HR) under my belt so I'm sure this next season will be a learning experience for sure.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: bronco on October 26, 2009, 08:31:34 pm
Attached are my pre-bout discussion points for the Head Ref/Captains and Head Ref/Ref/NSO meetings.

Last night was my last home bout of the season and these discussion points have worked well.  They give the visiting teams a sense that the head ref is running the bout (and not the captains, skaters and definitely not the "home team.")

And I now believe the most important point is telling the captains "If I see this bout is getting out of hand, I will stop play and call you into discuss what we will do to make it safe again"
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: ttjustice on October 30, 2009, 12:58:56 am
Thanks Bronco, these are great.  I just found out I might be head reffing my first bout this weekend and I'm all aflutter,lol.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: FNZebra on October 30, 2009, 04:30:12 am
Thanks Bronco, these are great.  I just found out I might be head reffing my first bout this weekend and I'm all aflutter,lol.
Ahhh, you'll be fine. You're that good, tt.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: bronco on November 03, 2009, 06:11:10 am
Smile a lot, listen to the captains before making a decision and act like you are in charge and know what you are doing.  Little things will go wrong along the way, delegate people to deal with them and everything will fall into place.  Be sure to offer public praise to your Refs/NSOs as a group, and criticism privately to individuals if necessary.

P.S. you can edit my captains meeting points, put your name/league on it and use it as a handout :)

Thanks Bronco, these are great.  I just found out I might be head reffing my first bout this weekend and I'm all aflutter,lol.
Ahhh, you'll be fine. You're that good, tt.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: ttjustice on November 03, 2009, 05:15:34 pm
Smile a lot, listen to the captains before making a decision and act like you are in charge and know what you are doing.  Little things will go wrong along the way, delegate people to deal with them and everything will fall into place.  Be sure to offer public praise to your Refs/NSOs as a group, and criticism privately to individuals if necessary.

P.S. you can edit my captains meeting points, put your name/league on it and use it as a handout :)

Thanks Bronco, these are great.  I just found out I might be head reffing my first bout this weekend and I'm all aflutter,lol.
Ahhh, you'll be fine. You're that good, tt.



Thanks Bronco- I actually used several points in it for my Captains/ rookie ref meetings before the bout.  It was our last home bout if the year and is all OHRG (Called Skatemare 3- Jingle Belles vs. Roller ghouls).  Everything went very smoothly, in no small part to Great Scott really putting me in a position to succeed.  We had an experienced NSO/ stats crew, good jam refs and skaters who know me/ my style well.  You can't ask for more than that!

and thanks for the vote of confidence you FNZebra!  ;)  You rock.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: bronco on November 05, 2009, 07:35:31 pm
Way to go TT!
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Riff Reff on December 03, 2009, 08:55:15 am
check legality of helmet covers at captain's meeting. finding out during equipment check that the covers of one team have different schemes or are too similar to the other team causes unnecessary delays.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Scorey on December 03, 2009, 08:31:44 pm
We actually walk the captains and visiting refs around the track and point out exactly where everything will be: outside whiteboards, inside staffing, NSOs, penalty box, announcer's table, et cetera. We also try to bring up the scoreboard and show exactly what stuff will be displayed so there's no confusion mid-bout.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: noidd on December 03, 2009, 09:06:31 pm
So, the "away" team arrives at your venue and has a panty of a type you don't consider high contrast and they do.  You have 1400 audience members coming to see the game in about 3 hours.  They don't have any other panties with them.

I understand the opinions being expressed including things like major IPs every time they hit the track but really... what kind of a game is it going to be when you send both the jammer and the pivot to the box any time they step foot on the track?

Time for diplomacy and pragmatism maybe.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Duncan Disorderly on December 03, 2009, 09:47:56 pm
I reffed a bout recently in which a similar situation occurred - one of their sets of helmet covers had a star and stripe that were almost indistinguishable from the base colour. The team did some ingenious work with duct tape 'star-outlining', and lo, us refs were perfectly happy. This bout wasn't exactly played to the strictures of a WFTDA sanctioned bout, but as Noidd says, a bit of pragmatism and there wasn't a problem. It was the home side's first public bout and the away side's first ever bout, so both were keen to put on a good show, and the last thing that would have helped the occasion would have been us refs being over-zealous and officious to the point of douchebaggery.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: TestosteRon Jeremy on December 29, 2009, 06:27:09 pm
i have an unrelated head ref question:

if a jam ref accidentally calls off a jam prematurely during a jam how have/would you handle this?
no points scored and continue with the next jam? keep the points scored and continue with the next jam? or a third option that i can't think of?

i wouldn't want a situation where this happens and the ref calls off a jam accidentally in a jam where their leagues team is scoring more than the other team, and then ethics are called into question when the team gets to keep the points they had just scored. am i explaining this well or are you scratching your helmet?

thanks
-TJ
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Darkjester on December 29, 2009, 06:34:09 pm
That is a hard question to answer TRJ,
The rules say that only points awarded in error can be removed; but at the same time an issue of fairness has to be considered.

Largely I would have to know more of 'what occurred' and 'what the effect of such' was.

If it was a simple 'oops' I thought she was signaling it off; or I thought she was Lead, or I thought she was downed and I needed to call it off for safety.  Not as big a deal as of "Well, I knew that the team had just overtaken the lead and I figured she was going to call it off before the other team got any points"..

Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: TestosteRon Jeremy on December 29, 2009, 07:22:32 pm
for arguments sake let's say it's a case of "oops i thought she was calling off the jam but now she's saying she wasn't" or even that it's obviously the jam refs visual mistake and everybody acknowledges this. let's even add that there was still time left in the jam. i agree that this would not be as bad as a ref making a decision based on what he/she THOUGHT was about to happen. however  either team in this case could argue to keep their own points or neither team be allowed to keep their points. what then?

this is purely hypothetical for now(thank god) so feel free to analyze other circumstances. but i guess i'm looking for "how would you deal with this as a head ref?"

i think personally i would not score either teams points and start a new jam.

aaah, but what if this was close to the last jam of a close scoring bout? would you then add time on the clock to reset the mistake and keep it fair to a team that might be losing a really close bout and then this happens during the closing minutes? well, let's keep this discussion simple for now. my mind starts spinning these scenarios and i can't stop.

-TJ
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Cliquework on December 29, 2009, 08:04:20 pm
Calling a jam early for whatever reason doesn't negate the points a team scored legally (or whatever else went on in that jam - penalties or not, etc...)while the jam was on. The jam may be dead early, but it was a legal jam and move to the next. Perhaps it's because of ref error, perhaps there may be thoughts of bias in an extreme circumstance (I'll sleep okay though), but a far greater consequence would be to erase what legally happened during the jam based on what could have happened if it weren't called off.

Edit: A jam getting called off early (or late) for some reason or another will happen to you.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: TestosteRon Jeremy on December 29, 2009, 08:58:07 pm
Calling a jam early for whatever reason doesn't negate the points a team scored legally (or whatever else went on in that jam - penalties or not, etc...)while the jam was on. The jam may be dead early, but it was a legal jam and move to the next.

that makes sense and i agree for any normal circumstance. good input.

so what about the near the end of a close bout? or a better question, is there a circumstance where you would not count the jam that was falsely ended by a ref?

-TJ
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Darkjester on December 29, 2009, 09:17:44 pm
That sad truth is there really isn't a "Falsely" ended Jam by a ref perse.

Any Referee who blows 4 whistles has ended the jam. Perhaps erroneously, and wrongly, but not 'falsely'.

You have to take that as a strict measure. Jam starts- Jam Ends. If we allow for 'do-overs' it starts to open the door more problems.

Clique is correct, there WILL be pre-mature jam endings during bouts. Often due to miscommunications, injuries that weren't as injurious as the Ref believed when they decided to call off the Jam, etc.,

I've even called off a Jam when a Jammer I KNEW I had sent to the box as HR, was back up and standing int he middle of the track as if she were leaving the Jam to go to the sidelines. I inquired "why aren't you in the box?" and she told me "I'll tell you in a little bit.." Something wasn't right and it seemed to be affecting gameplay so the Jam was called per " 9.2.6   A referee calls off a jam by four short whistle blasts.
   9.2.6.1   A referee may call off a jam for any of the following reasons:
   9.2.6.1.1   Referees call an Official Timeout"

This was where I found out that my PB Timer was letting the time continue through the 30 seconds between Jam End/Jam Start time.

The Skater had been told she could leave before the Jam started and was 'just' about to skate off the track when I caught her. The Jam started, she told me she was told to leave by the PB timer who nodded to me and I stopped the Jam. Put her back in the box for the remainder 30 seconds' pulled their extra player that had been allowed on the track, and corrected the PB Timer.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: TestosteRon Jeremy on December 30, 2009, 09:27:31 am
yea good point there jester. i understand that things will not always go smoothly and it's out job to stop game play. that was a good personal story to illustrate that. personally i am training refs for a new league, and they have never even been to a bout so i am trying to prepare myself for what-could-go-wrong. so thank you for the input. although i don't look forward to it, i'm sure this kind of thing will happen as clique said, so i will deal with it then, but thanks for the advice. I have never actually been a HR until now, so i'm taking all this to heart.
+1 jester, and thanks again.
-TJ
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: TestosteRon Jeremy on December 30, 2009, 09:38:47 am
and of course i should be taking this in consideration


8.5.4   Once a Jammer earns a point that point can never be taken away.

so regardless of the reason for calling of a jam, whether intentional or accidentally, the jam should always count. if it's called off by a ref that makes a mistake, just move on to the next jam. these things happen.
right?

Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Darkjester on December 30, 2009, 04:08:10 pm
Best advice I can give there is to try and get both your skaters and Refs in training, onto Zebra huddle, Derby News Network, Skatelog.com/forum, etc.,

Take everything with a grain of salt, ...squirt of lime and shot of Patron. ( off skates of course).

Mistakes are going to happen, miscommunication, bad calls, good calls that fall on deaf ears, etc., I think someone once told me it takes about 3 years for a new ref to become "good", I've got two more to go then myself.

 
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: TestosteRon Jeremy on December 30, 2009, 09:39:49 pm
3 years huh? i guess there will be plenty of time for those shots as i also have about 2 years to go then.

cheers!

-TJ
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: JoeXCore on December 31, 2009, 04:48:13 pm
I think it also depends on how much derby you squeeze in there and if it's all with one league or if you're traveling and experiencing a good variety of derby
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Bishop on January 02, 2010, 03:11:10 pm
Mistakes are going to happen, miscommunication, bad calls, good calls that fall on deaf ears, etc., I think someone once told me it takes about 3 years for a new ref to become "good", I've got two more to go then myself.
Here’s the quote from johnny zebra that I often cite:
For most, it takes at least a year to get competent [at refereeing]; for most, it takes two years to get really solid.
j.z. is a level 3 certified referee and has been reffing derby a long time.

Also, I think one thing that unintentionally gets overlooked with new leagues and first bouts is the importance of bout production.  Your first bout may well set the stage for the success of your league in the future.  If you do a decent job of promoting your bout, it’s likely that your first crowd will the largest.  It probably depends your local population size, but generally the smaller the population to draw from the more important your first bout is going to be.  You want to get as many of those people to spread the word about the sport to come back with their friends to the next bout.   

At any given bout, there are actually at least three teams present: the home team, the away team, and the officiating crew. With all the referees, NSOs, and announcers, you actually have a third team of approximiately twenty people.  That team needs to work together well to make a bout successful.   

Here are two important components for good bout production:

1. NSO crew: The Non-Skating Official crew is critical for making a bout run smoothly.  It would take me pages to explain all the problems that can come up.  It sucks for the audience when a bout is stopped for five minutes or so until the refs can straighten things out because of some sort of NSO miscue.  And as noidd said in anther thread, this is usually due to scrambling in the last hour or so before a bout to recruit and train NSOs.  Find and train as many of your NSOs well before the bout as you can.  I made simplified scoring sheets for leagues that don’t have a regular NSO staff (that includes my own league.)  I can send them to you if you wish.

2. Announcers: Announcers who know the game and can communicate that information out to the audience are a critical component of good bout production.  For example, friends who I’ve invited to derby events, even the really smart ones, often don’t understand scoring.  One of the ways facilitate this process is to have the announcers verbally announce the points for each pass.  It’s not important that they’re 100% accurate, but they do have to understand what to look for.  I’ve taken to including the scoreboard operators and announcers in my meetings with the point trackers and jammer referees before bouts.  I explain to the jammer refs what I’m looking for and I make sure that the point trackers and jammer refs are on the same page as to how this is to be done.  If the announcers and scoreboard operators are present at this meeting, they often need no further instruction on scoring.  It’s also important to note that at higher levels of play, referees will often be in close communication with the announcers.  I noticed that mrRAWK in particular was very good about doing this at both regional and national tournaments.

I think it also depends on how much derby you squeeze in there and if it's all with one league or if you're traveling and experiencing a good variety of derby
Word!  Although I am affiliated with the RockTown Rollers, I have actually reffed more bouts for other leagues.  I mean an individual league too, not just in general.  The league I have officiated the most bouts for is, amusingly enough, RockTown’s archrival.       
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Noah Tall on February 07, 2010, 04:17:50 pm
I've got another thing to add to the head ref meeting.  Please inquire of captain's as to whether any skaters have disabilities which would affect their gameplay.  We had a skater last night who was not promptly leaving the track for penalties.  She came up to us during halftime to apologize, and let us know that she was deaf in one ear and couldn't hear us when we were calling.  If we had known at the beginning, we could have adjusted our calls for her. :)
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: SeerSin on February 13, 2010, 04:06:33 pm
8.5.4   Once a Jammer earns a point that point can never be taken away.

This one is important, jams will get called off by mistake. I've done it once or twice myself. A team should never be penalized for a referee's mistake. If they earned those points they get to keep them.
Title: Order of Operations for Pre-Bout happiness
Post by: Noah Tall on February 27, 2010, 12:35:44 am
I'm head reffing tomorrow, and I'm trying to finalize my prebout schedule.  Here is what I have:

Refs meeting
   NSO meeting (with head NSO)
Captains meeting
Equipment check
Introductions
Mock Jam
Jam On!

I was most curious about whether it was ok to do the equip. check  before the intros.  I know many times skaters will remove helmets for the intros, so I'd hate to do the check before then.  On the other hand, though, they also can remove their helmets at the bench, and I'm not their mom, so I shouldn't have to check again.  Does it matter?  Is there a way which makes things flow more smoothly?
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Darkjester on February 27, 2010, 01:45:23 am
I'd do it just before the Mock Jam. ( On a side note. I'm going to try and get the league to do away with the 'slow jam' this year. Enough people have seen it, or can explain it to someone else.)

By doing it just before the Mock Jam ( after intros) you give the skaters a chance to line up on the side of the track, check equipment, and go straight into bout.

Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Brad Religion on February 27, 2010, 02:21:13 am
Yep. We do our equipment checks post-intro, just before the first skaters get on the track. We are also going to have our penalty trackers walk over with the refs to make sure the numbers they have are correct.

Are we the last crew out there that checks toe stops?
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Darkjester on February 27, 2010, 07:20:19 am
No, I've seen a few crews check toe-stops.

Title: Re: Order of Operations for Pre-Bout happiness
Post by: The Gorram Reaver on February 27, 2010, 07:43:25 am
I was most curious about whether it was ok to do the equip. check  before the intros.  I know many times skaters will remove helmets for the intros, so I'd hate to do the check before then.  On the other hand, though, they also can remove their helmets at the bench, and I'm not their mom, so I shouldn't have to check again.  Does it matter?  Is there a way which makes things flow more smoothly?

Funny you should mention that...  I was just putting together my notes for tomorrow's ref captain meeting and, what do you know...  I have something on my list about reminding the captains that we check the skaters to be certain their equipment is bout ready (everything is rules compliant, nothing dangerous is being worn), but that beyond that it is the responsibility of each individual skater to maintain her equipment in a manner that ensures it continues to be bout-ready throughout the night.  You're right; we're not their moms.  Part of being a participant in a contact sport is maintaining enough awareness of your equipment that you can ensure it continues to meet safety standards.
Title: Re: Order of Operations for Pre-Bout happiness
Post by: Brad Religion on February 27, 2010, 03:24:34 pm
I know many times skaters will remove helmets for the intros, so I'd hate to do the check before then.  On the other hand, though, they also can remove their helmets at the bench, and I'm not their mom, so I shouldn't have to check again.  Does it matter?  Is there a way which makes things flow more smoothly?

I just realized I didn't really answer the question you asked. My opinion is that we do the equipment checks to make sure they actually have the required gear and that it is adjusted to fit properly. After that, if they try to get into a jam with something unstrapped or missing, it's time for penalties. And yes, I realize that contradicts my statements in another thread about mouthguards. I still don't like the idea of a skater losing a tooth when I could prevent it, but I tend to follow the lead of a ZH majority.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: ttjustice on February 27, 2010, 04:11:45 pm
Yep. We do our equipment checks post-intro, just before the first skaters get on the track. We are also going to have our penalty trackers walk over with the refs to make sure the numbers they have are correct.

Are we the last crew out there that checks toe stops?

No, I still check toe stops as a courtesy since it only takes an extra moment.  I know its not required but if I can prevent a jam call off for a toe stop sitting on the track by taking the few extra seconds to check, I think its worth it.  The skaters seem to appreciate it too.
Title: Re: Order of Operations for Pre-Bout happiness
Post by: reflmao on February 27, 2010, 04:56:36 pm
My opinion is that we do the equipment checks to make sure they actually have the required gear and that it is adjusted to fit properly. After that, if they try to get into a jam with something unstrapped or missing, it's time for penalties.

In RCRD we do safety checks before intros.   It speeds up the start of the game between intros and first game.  Brad's logic is exactly the reason we don't worry about doing it closer to the first jam.
 
And yes, I realize that contradicts my statements in another thread about mouthguards. I still don't like the idea of a skater losing a tooth when I could prevent it, but I tend to follow the lead of a ZH majority.

Important point here.   Yes mouthguards protect against teeth and soft tissue injuries.  But you can still lose a tooth through a mouthguard, so don't expect total tooth protection.  More importantly though, mouthguards help protect against concussions by absorbing force from an impact on the chin on the way to the brain.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: PotomacRipper on February 27, 2010, 05:40:35 pm
No, I've seen a few crews check toe-stops.



I'll stop checking toe stops when I stop finding a third of the skaters having one or two that are loose at gentle pressure from my fingers  :)
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Major Wood on February 27, 2010, 06:19:55 pm
I do equipment checks before intros. It normally happens in the locker rooms.
I give the announcer the OK to start the bout rolling (get ready for intros, etc.) after I finish with equipment checks. Nothing starts until I give the ok for equipment. We also do our number check vs the submitted roster at the same time.

I also do check toe stops. Though I'm debating whether I should be confirming that the toe stop has been secured after I tell them to do it, or if I should just tell them it's loose and leave it at that.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Major Wood on February 27, 2010, 06:22:03 pm
Oh! I suggest having your captains meeting immediately following the ref meeting. That way all the refs are still there and any questions the captains have can be answered and all your refs get the information right then and there.

It's always a pain to chase everyone down and make sure you relay any new info later.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Noah Tall on February 27, 2010, 06:36:45 pm
Oh! I suggest having your captains meeting immediately following the ref meeting. That way all the refs are still there and any questions the captains have can be answered and all your refs get the information right then and there.

It's always a pain to chase everyone down and make sure you relay any new info later.

Oh, it is.  The head of our NSOs goes off with his NSO crew with any specifics he needs for them, and at that time we hold the captain meeting.  And, I'd like to mention that for the first time ever, at this bout, we have a large enough stats crew to track all the optional stuff like assists and errors and such.  I'm pretty excited.
Title: Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
Post by: Manic Oppression on March 01, 2010, 06:42:38 pm
Copy the end resulting list for the thread, make a new sticky thread, lock it, and make the title easily identifyable to the info contained. Then place all those "sticky info threads" in one subforum with a name something like "Helpfull ideas for refs"