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Non-Skating Officials => Working with Referees => Topic started by: Noah Tall on May 22, 2010, 06:02:36 am

Title: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Noah Tall on May 22, 2010, 06:02:36 am
Hey all.  I watched a bout recently where the jam timer was on skates.  I can see the advantage to this, as it allows you to quickly move out of the way of oncoming refs.  However, this is a N(on) S(kating) O(fficial) position.  Does it really matter if your NSOs choose to be on skates or not, or is this something that should be mandated by the leagues?
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: ExceptionHandler on May 22, 2010, 09:51:11 am
Skimming through the rules, other than them being called "Non Skating Officials", I don't see anything that says you can't.

I'm quite new to the ins and outs of center track clutter, but doesn't the jam timer generally hide/move into the middle with penalty trackers/relays?
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Duncan Disorderly on May 22, 2010, 12:49:41 pm
Were they in full protective kit? Whilst I know of no explicit reason why you couldn't have a jam timer on skates, I'd say that they would have to be outfitted like every other skating person for insurance purposes, presumably.

They would also have to make sure they were recognisable as an official (ie wearing some visible identifier of thier neutrality like a specific colour of short or whatever) so that they didn't accidentally get clobbered by an over-eager skater...
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Professor Murder on May 22, 2010, 03:32:00 pm
They're referred to as non-skating officials for a reason.
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Master DeSkater on May 22, 2010, 03:36:40 pm
No, they are a NON skating official. At no time should they have skates on. Multiple reasons for this, but the main one is they could be mistaken for a referee. It needs to be clear who are the refs and who are the NSO's. ZIt may not say in the rule NSO's cant wear skates, but that would be a bit redundant becase they are already classified as "Non skating"
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Noah Tall on May 22, 2010, 03:54:21 pm
However, we have non-skating refs.  How would you classify a standing head ref?
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Pat-E-Rat on May 22, 2010, 04:32:34 pm
Wearing skates makes one resemble a skating official (referee) and: [rule]9.4.2.1 Non-Skating Officials are strongly encouraged to dress in an un-obtrusive uniform differentiating themselves from Referees.[/rule]

Also: [rule]9.4.1 Referees are permitted to wear inline skates, but are strongly encouraged to wear quad
skates.[/rule]  Note N(on) S(kating) O(fficials) are only told not to look like refs, ie. wear comfortable shoes and a bright colored shirt...if you want to skate, ref. 
Quote
Were they in full protective kit?
  Covers it best in that they would (or should), for safety sake be in gear.  So gear+skates = a few stripes away from reffing which is not NSOing.

Of course, if it's not a sanctioned bout, go wild.  Have fun, be safe, but I wouldn't allow it as HR...
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Gravity Kills on May 23, 2010, 11:46:39 am
I don't know where you get "bright colored shirt" from "unobtrusive uniform."  I keep my NSOs off skates so they can quickly step/run out of the way of flying derby girls and refs, and so it takes less room to maneuver in the middle of the track.  Having 4 people on skates in the middle is plenty.  Also, "NON-skating official."
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: ExceptionHandler on May 23, 2010, 04:35:52 pm
I don't know where you get "bright colored shirt" from "unobtrusive uniform."  I keep my NSOs off skates so they can quickly step/run out of the way of flying derby girls and refs, and so it takes less room to maneuver in the middle of the track.  Having 4 people on skates in the middle is plenty.  Also, "NON-skating official."

Unless you are doing a 5 and 2 configuration.
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Pat-E-Rat on May 23, 2010, 05:08:08 pm
Quote
I don't know where you get "bright colored shirt" from "unobtrusive uniform."

Bright colors in a crowd make it easy to regather NSOs after a half-time break  is all.  Similarly having large printed "STATS" or "STAFF" on the shirts helps.
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Major Wood on May 23, 2010, 05:24:55 pm
However, we have non-skating refs.  How would you classify a standing head ref?

File it under "inadequate"
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Pat-E-Rat on May 23, 2010, 05:30:46 pm
Quote
Quote from: Noah Tall on May 22, 2010, 10:54:21 AMHowever, we have non-skating refs.  How would you classify a standing head ref?


File it under "inadequate"

Fact.  Previously the only really acceptable non-skating referee would have been an OPR.  This has since been ruled out as a best practice.

[rule]Outside standing referees
should be eliminated as a
practice, as it is not an
effective practice.[/rule]
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Major Wood on May 23, 2010, 05:39:33 pm
Yes. It was agreed a couple years ago, when best practices was created (I believe that was in 2008), that non-skating referees on the outside should be eliminated. The only allowance for non-skating referees in the rules is outside pack refs.

Back to the topic at hand. NSOs should be non-skating.
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Vermin Skum on May 25, 2010, 07:58:46 am
I have a bout coming up that is a double header. The first Bout I'm Head Ref. The second bout I'm Jam timer. The bouts are going to be staggered. There is no way that I'm going to put on and take off my skates twice. I don't think there is any reason to forbid it, but think it's best left to situations like the one I just described.
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: noidd on May 25, 2010, 01:01:17 pm
There is no way that I'm going to put on and take off my skates twice.

Do you really think that putting your skates on twice in two hours is such an arduous requirement?
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Pat-E-Rat on May 25, 2010, 01:37:02 pm
Quote
The bouts are going to be staggered.
That sounds like a clusterf#ck of a way to do a double header.  It also sounds like it would be unsanctioned if you're splitting bouts and mixing periods, which means 4.0 doesn't apply as you're not playing by it.  If you were, you should remove the skates and jersey...
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: noidd on May 25, 2010, 01:50:50 pm
That sounds like a clusterf#ck of a way to do a double header.  It also sounds like it would be unsanctioned if you're splitting bouts and mixing periods, which means 4.0 doesn't apply as you're not playing by it.

Ahem Pat-E-Rat:

[rule]
2.2.3 Two or more games may be combined in a single “double-header” event. Games can
either be staggered by periods or played in full, one at a time depending upon the
agreement between teams involved.
[/rule]

Staggering is explicitly legal in 12/01/2010 ruleset.

Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Vermin Skum on May 25, 2010, 04:18:34 pm

Do you really think that putting your skates on twice in two hours is such an arduous requirement?
[/quote]

I don't think it's too much to ask. However, being head ref of one of the bouts I wil be a little too busy to use the time between to take off or re lace my skates. I will however be changing my jersey. (That should go without saying).
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Pat-E-Rat on May 25, 2010, 04:41:51 pm
D'OH...can I  -1 myself?  Thanks, Noidd.  For some reason, in my morning brain, I was envisioning a mixed scrimmage-eque bout...again, d'oh.
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Dänziger on May 25, 2010, 05:37:26 pm
I don't know where you get "bright colored shirt" from "unobtrusive uniform."  I keep my NSOs off skates so they can quickly step/run out of the way of flying derby girls and refs, and so it takes less room to maneuver in the middle of the track.  Having 4 people on skates in the middle is plenty.  Also, "NON-skating official."

Having 4 people on skates in the middle is plenty.

I don’t think you can overemphasize the fact that having more than four people on skates in the middle is going to be a disaster.  For this reason alone there should be a zero tolerance policy for NSOs on skates.  Also, if you let one NSO do it, they’re all going to want to start doing it (I don’t know about anyone else, but in our league the majority of our NSOs can skate and would jump at the chance to do so at a bout).  My advice, keep the worms in the can and just say “no.”
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: The Gorram Reaver on May 25, 2010, 06:22:21 pm
However, being head ref of one of the bouts I wil be a little too busy to use the time between to take off or re lace my skates. I will however be changing my jersey. (That should go without saying).
It all comes down to scheduling your time appropriately.  If you need to talk to crew after the period you HR, take the crew to some place where you can change your skates.  Have your shirt & shoes near the track (behind a team bench, under/next to a stats table, etc.), and leave your skates & helmet in the same place after you change - no need to take time going to the locker room.  Unless your periods are less than ten minutes apart, you should have time to change you skates & get into position.
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Judge Knot on May 26, 2010, 02:45:32 am

Do you really think that putting your skates on twice in two hours is such an arduous requirement?

I don't think it's too much to ask. However, being head ref of one of the bouts I wil be a little too busy to use the time between to take off or re lace my skates. I will however be changing my jersey. (That should go without saying).
[/quote]

You can't take your skates off and talk at the same time?

And I seriously just had to ask that?

Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Wernher on May 26, 2010, 04:04:47 pm
Honestly, I understand where he's coming from - there may also be venue restrictions where going to a changing area just isn't practical. Not wanting, but apparently doing so anyway, to assume what the intent of the rules when they were written, it would seem that it was written to accomodate situations where running the bout is more important than protocol.

I know I'll probably get roasted for saying this, but it doesn't bother me if a NSO is on-skates in Vermin Skum's situation, as long as they have some way of completely obscuring the stripes (large shirt, jacket, lab coat, etc.), which denote skating officials.

I know there are people here involved in writing the rules, so please correct me if I'm wrong. But skates are just footwear, if you're not moving around the track in them, are you really skating?
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: FNZebra on May 26, 2010, 04:25:29 pm
But skates are just footwear, if you're not moving around the track in them, are you really skating?

Which then begs the question of why are you wearing skates, then? And then there's still that whole Non-Skating Official thing...
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Judge Knot on May 26, 2010, 04:46:51 pm
On is on. The line is the line. Non-skating is non-skating.
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Bishop on May 26, 2010, 05:17:00 pm
On the topic of NSO wearing skates: This makes me recall what Stego pointed out ages ago. 

Quote
I do think that those of us in more experienced and/or WFTDA leagues need to remember: as much as we're getting more and more regulated and consistent, flexibility is still an essential part of roller derby.  Some things just work for some leagues that would never work for the rest of us.  Some of our leagues are extremely competitive, while others are more interested in just having fun.  It's OK to let go and realize they may find a different way to run the show than any of us could live with.

Hopefully, I'm not taking her out of context here.  I'm sure she'll speak up if I am.  :)
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: DayGlo Divine on May 26, 2010, 05:25:44 pm

Do you really think that putting your skates on twice in two hours is such an arduous requirement?

I don't think it's too much to ask. However, being head ref of one of the bouts I wil be a little too busy to use the time between to take off or re lace my skates. I will however be changing my jersey. (That should go without saying).

On Sunday, I was given 5 whole minutes to take off my ref gear and start rocking a clipboard. I did it with 90 seconds to spare, and that's even considering I get all OCD about having everything packed just right in my gear bag lest I forget anything. My stuff was in a skate room, opposite where I needed to be when the second bout got started. It's really not that hard.
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Bishop on May 26, 2010, 05:32:50 pm
On a related note, are Heelys technically skates or shoes?  That's always confused me.  
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: The Gorram Reaver on May 26, 2010, 05:36:50 pm
On a related note, are Heelys technically skates or shoes?  That's always confused me.  
I believe they're technically "annoying", but that could just be because I'm a grouchy old lady who worked in reatail.
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Professor Murder on May 26, 2010, 05:49:57 pm
I believe they're technically "annoying"

I'd "plus one" the shit out of this if I could.
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Wernher on May 26, 2010, 10:17:51 pm
But skates are just footwear, if you're not moving around the track in them, are you really skating?

Which then begs the question of why are you wearing skates, then? And then there's still that whole Non-Skating Official thing...

In a situation, as referenced earlier, with staggered bouts where the person is skating one, but not the other, and, for whatever reason, getting out of the gear is not a practical option.


I know I'm getting nitpicky, but having shoes with wheels on them does not make you referee any more than having Air Jordans makes someone a NBA player. It seems to me the important thing about the NSO as being non-skating is that the person is not mistaken by anyone as a skating referee, and if there's something that plainly physically identifies them as being in the NSO position, I guess I'm not seeing the problem, if the logistics of the event demands it. I'm not saying across the board here, I'm just saying I can understand why some leagues do it that way.
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Brad Religion on May 26, 2010, 11:43:49 pm
I can't understand why they'd want to do staggered bouts to begin with. I guess if someone wants to penalty track while standing there in roller skates and all their safety gear I wouldn't care?
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Brother Grim on May 27, 2010, 03:46:49 am
I think as far as flexibility goes here, why not apply it to the starting time of the bout? Surely it would be less of a hassle for the bout to start 30 seconds later to accomodate someone removing their skates than have this argument.

And as for finding a place to change, at the venue we currently use the refs get changed in a hallway. I sit in the penalty box to get my gear on. And I bet other people have worse stories than that. As Dayglo said it takes no time to do it, and if it needs to be done then why not make it work?
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Vermin Skum on May 27, 2010, 06:44:19 am
I can't understand why they'd want to do staggered bouts to begin with. I guess if someone wants to penalty track while standing there in roller skates and all their safety gear I wouldn't care?

We will sometimes stagger the bouts to keep people in the seats for the whole night of bouts. In the past, people have left after one, or shown up late just to see the other.
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Stegoscorus on May 27, 2010, 07:37:45 am
B - how do you always remember everything?!  You are talented.  I stand by the statement you quoted, in general and in this instance. 

I also agree with Vermin Skum that the situation he describes is not ideal, but also not something I'd lose sleep over. 
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Professor Murder on May 27, 2010, 12:42:21 pm
A few things.

1) Words mean what words mean.  Non-skating means non-skating.  This semantic ballet to claim that "non-skating" means it's ok to wear skates is wearing tiresome - this is related to the second point.

2) We're spending a *lot* of time arguing over the amount of time required to essentially take off shoes and swap a shirt - 40 seconds?  50 seconds?  Fewer?  This is a preposterous rationale for not removing skates.  One I simply don't believe holds any credibility - otherwise you're telling me that within 30 seconds of the end of Game1Period1 Game2Period2 begins.  No time for Game 1's participants to leave, putz around for a moment; no time for game intros, no time to jam in "bout production" stuff like kids on tricycles or shirt guns or things to eat up time.  This argument rests on the premise that those who don't swap gear don't have 30 seconds.  And I simply don't believe that.
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Wernher on May 27, 2010, 05:40:24 pm
Again, I'm talking about situations where it's clearly not an ideal situation. But simply, I just want to know if the rules for NSOs accommodate for those situations. Want an example? I don't have one - I could make something up if you want. Maybe something with lakes of fire and alligator pits in the dressing areas.  ;D
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Darkjester on May 28, 2010, 01:53:53 am
WFTDA Sanctioned or Certified Bouts?
No

Non-WFTDA bouts, League/HR Discretion.

BTW, I'm a "Hefty" dude, it takes me more than 1 min to undo my skates/shirt, but I still wouldn't wear skates while NSO'ing.

Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Gravity Kills on May 29, 2010, 04:41:02 pm
The solution we had for a quick swap of shoes/skates (last year I had skaters from the doubleheader games working the bout they weren't skating) was to let them keep their skates in the middle, tucked under our table.  Allowed for a faster change from shoes to skates, kept everyone happy.

The last time I let an NSO stay on skates, she got hit by a skater, her feet went out from under her, and she wound up with a concussion.  In this particular situation, had she been in shoes, she could have gotten out of the way with a single big step.  I want my squad to be as maneuverable and safe as possible.
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Brother Grim on May 30, 2010, 04:06:46 am
The solution we had for a quick swap of shoes/skates (last year I had skaters from the doubleheader games working the bout they weren't skating) was to let them keep their skates in the middle, tucked under our table.  Allowed for a faster change from shoes to skates, kept everyone happy.

The last time I let an NSO stay on skates, she got hit by a skater, her feet went out from under her, and she wound up with a concussion.  In this particular situation, had she been in shoes, she could have gotten out of the way with a single big step.  I want my squad to be as maneuverable and safe as possible.

+1 for a helpful suggestion and prime example of a safety issue.
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: DayGlo Divine on May 30, 2010, 07:15:50 pm
Just to add to this, there's nothing that says NSOs can't wear elbow and knee pads. Those are the most time-consuming things to put on besides skates, so having them on makes a big dent in the time it takes to gear up.
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Poobah on June 03, 2010, 05:04:46 pm
It also sounds like it would be unsanctioned if you're splitting bouts and mixing periods, which means 4.0 doesn't apply as you're not playing by it.

WFTDA 4.0 rules have not applied nor been official since November 30th. The December 2009 (and the current May 2010) rules are official rules releases, not simply updates or clarifications.
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Gravity Kills on June 03, 2010, 06:21:24 pm
It also sounds like it would be unsanctioned if you're splitting bouts and mixing periods, which means 4.0 doesn't apply as you're not playing by it.

WFTDA 4.0 rules have not applied nor been official since November 30th. The December 2009 (and the current May 2010) rules are official rules releases, not simply updates or clarifications.

I think what he was getting at was that since you're already not playing by WFTDA rules, you may as well do whatever the heck you want.
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Pat-E-Rat on June 03, 2010, 06:38:08 pm
Essentially.  Without the nudity and virgin sacrafice perhaps...  Not so much on the stagdered bouts which Noidd pointed out my brain farted and are legal and common, but yeah, not a sanctioned bout; have at it.
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: Jiminey Stick-It on June 03, 2010, 09:58:40 pm
Several people in our league have tried running clipboards on skates.  I can say that every one of us had a helluva time writing legibly in those itty-bitty boxes while wearing wristguards.  As someone already mentioned, if you're gonna wear skates you'll probably have to wear all your gear for insurance purposes.  It'll be way easier to just take them off and put them back on again later.
Title: Re: NSOs on skates?
Post by: howie~swerve on July 07, 2010, 07:00:58 pm
I don’t think you can overemphasize the fact that having more than four people on skates in the middle is going to be a disaster.

(http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/6153/566459467034ca17a32.jpg)


I think "disaster" is a bit strong. 

[that's me, Virginia Slim and Steak Knife as NSOs at a Charm City intraleague bout back in the day when no one knew any better.]

and for good measure, it was a staggered doubleheader.