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Non-Skating Officials => Working with Referees => Topic started by: Sven WillIBeFamous on August 22, 2010, 06:27:49 pm

Title: NSO Impartiality - When Does It End?
Post by: Sven WillIBeFamous on August 22, 2010, 06:27:49 pm
Just a quick one to guage everyones opinions on this.

I was at a bout yesterday (I won't say which bout) and as soon as the final score was posted to the board 2 of the NSO's chucked their clipboards down and raced over to the home team bench and dived in with the celebrations (the home team won).

When is it OK for an NSO to stop being impartial?  At the final Whistle, When the Final Score is announced or not until the afterparty?

Whenever I have NSO'd I have always made sure that all the official paperwork duties have been carried out by the head ref before I even think about going to see my team. Even then I will make sure that I have changed out of the NSO shirt that I was wearing during the bout.
Title: Re: NSO Impartiality - When Does It End?
Post by: noidd on August 22, 2010, 11:09:33 pm
That is a really good question.

NSOs are game officials equal to referees so they should be held to the exact same standards of impartiality and, just as important, appearance of impartiality.

At the very minimum it needs to be held until the afterparty.

Personally, I have never celebrated with a winning team on bout day.  I think it's poor form because you are at that point demonstrating that you had an investment in the game other than its proper officiating.
Title: Re: NSO Impartiality - When Does It End?
Post by: noidd on August 22, 2010, 11:39:29 pm
This seems somewhat appropriate too:

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/NFL-referee-didn-t-mean-to-high-five-Vince-Young?urn=nfl-204948

An NFL referee high-fiving a player after his team won the game.
Title: Re: NSO Impartiality - When Does It End?
Post by: mr fantastic on August 22, 2010, 11:41:06 pm
inappropriate behavior for your NSO's .  Refs , NSO's should keep their game face on at the venue , no matter who wins.
 
This will save trouble later for your league, no one wants to start having rumours that they only win because thier officials are bias , regardless if that's not true.
Title: Re: NSO Impartiality - When Does It End?
Post by: Sven WillIBeFamous on August 23, 2010, 10:04:42 am
I kind of figured this would be the way it would be seen.  I might try and find a way to feed it back to the head ref of the bout.  Luckily I know the guy and have worked with him a few times but I don't know if he will like the criticism. 

I'll definitely make it clear to all the NSO's at any Newcastle Roller Girls bout that they shoud remain totally impartial until the afterparty.  I know it will be hard for some of the skaters who are acting as NSOs for the day but I'm sure they will see the importance of it.



Title: Re: NSO Impartiality - When Does It End?
Post by: Professor Murder on August 23, 2010, 01:21:07 pm
Those are the ideals, certainly.  But not all NSOs are built alike.  Some leagues have deep, dedicated crews with a thorough division of labor and staffed by people who are committed to those roles.  Other leagues are more along the lines of 'hey, are you skating tonight? do you know how to penalty track?'

Explaining the ideas of professionalism and propriety to dedicated NSOs is well and good, but you aren't likely to experience the same degree of acceptance when your NSOs are people other than that.  With non-dedicated staff, really, you can give them the second sentence that noidd gives above, but with the recognition that:
(1) they may not understand what that means to the degree you do
(2) they may not care anyway
(3) any incentive system you're accustomed to (e.g., removing them from their position and/or not using them in later games) is not necessarily going to be read as the punishment you think it is

Of course, if these are dedicated NSOs, it's a different story.  But tread carefully when you're working with a tenuously-staffed crew.
Title: Re: NSO Impartiality - When Does It End?
Post by: ttjustice on September 01, 2010, 05:48:30 pm
I had a somewhat recent experience that completely backs up what Murder wrote when during a stoppage of play the jam timer suddenly took off and ran onto the track and proceeded to make a full lap while leading the crowd in "the wave".  When she got back I kinda snapped at her "You an NSO and are supposed to be impartial...don't EVER do that again!"  I believe she was a first time jam timer and to her credit did an excellent job both before and after the incident.  I felt quite badly having to do that (especially as a guest ref) but the message was understood.
Title: Re: NSO Impartiality - When Does It End?
Post by: Shaun Ketterman on September 01, 2010, 06:57:11 pm
I've never had anything that extreme happen.  I have seen NSOs who are also team members not be as worried about showing bias as they should have been.  I've always been able to reign them in with a polite but firm verbal reminder that they're not a fan or teammate right now.  In my home bouts I ask NSOs not to wear team gear at all and would ask them to turn their shirt or whatever inside out if they did.
Title: Re: NSO Impartiality - When Does It End?
Post by: Manic Oppression on September 01, 2010, 07:13:43 pm
NSO- Non-Skating................(wait for it).... OFFICIAL

Any official in derby has no opinion, no preferance, no favorite team and no desired outcome while working a derby bout. While you are wearing Stripes or Pink, you are an official for WFTDA. If you want to go celebrate with the team that you are affiliated with then you should 1st change your shirt and make sure you are fully disaccociated with any official duties from the bout.
Title: Re: NSO Impartiality - When Does It End?
Post by: Flat Track Protocol (FTP #21) on September 05, 2010, 02:36:13 pm
It's a bit of a tradition at our bouts that the NSOs will come to the edge of the track to high five members of both teams as they do the skate past at full time.  I find this perfectly acceptable as it's not showing preference for one team or another (and it doesn't matter anyway, it's derby that always wins at the end of the day)...     Celebrations with your home team however should be saved for the after party.
Title: Re: NSO Impartiality - When Does It End?
Post by: noidd on September 05, 2010, 03:44:02 pm
So Jared, do your referees do the same?
Title: Re: NSO Impartiality - When Does It End?
Post by: high angle hell on September 09, 2010, 06:43:57 am
My opinion is that if your a NSO that they should be held to the same standards as Referees and show no bias by clapping, cheering, high fives, etc. Make sure your paperwork is turned in. If that just has to celebrate then change your shirt if you want to celebrate at the venue. Your still taking a chance even by doing that especially if someone recognizes you from your bout duty as a NSO. Once the bout is over head to the after party and then celebrate with the your team! Alot less chance of people saying bias remarks.
Title: Re: NSO Impartiality - When Does It End?
Post by: Riff Reff on September 09, 2010, 07:54:03 am
just my two cents: All over Europe officials clap hands during skate outs and stand on the sidelines after the game to high (or low) five the skaters (of both teams).

I think good sports(wo)manship should be the guideline. I don't see a problem showing admiration for the players' performance as long as we show it to both teams. (Not during the game of course)
Title: Re: NSO Impartiality - When Does It End?
Post by: SeerSin on September 09, 2010, 02:50:52 pm
I'm not a fan of the officials high fiving, clapping, or celebrating outwardly at all. We officiate the bout, clapping and high fiving gets us too involved. Appearence of bias or not we are not there to compete, or even to celebrate their competition. We're there to ensure the integrity of the competition.

And the officials' "hat" doesn't come off as soon as you're out of stripes at the after party. It's still inappropriate for an official to attend the after party and start talking about how one team "smoked" the other, or "I can't believe how many penalties she got" or similar conversation.

When you end up drafting a random skater to NSO it probably will happen. But for dedicated officials it's highly disrespectful.
Title: Re: NSO Impartiality - When Does It End?
Post by: Auntie Bellum on September 09, 2010, 04:14:47 pm
I agree with SeerSin as to the importance of being impartial between the teams, even after the bout.

On the other hand I am not and will never be completely impartal.  I am distinctly on the side of Roller Derby.  That includes both teams because they make up the bout, all of the girls, all of the officals and almost all of the fan.

I don't aim for indifferance but instead try for what my mediation teachers called positive neutrality.  I want everyone involved to understand I like them but that I can best serve them by doing my job, which requires being objective and fair, to the best of my ability.
Title: Re: NSO Impartiality - When Does It End?
Post by: Poobah on September 09, 2010, 07:34:21 pm
What about the ones whose job has no impact on the outcome of the bout? WFTDA recently seems to have decided that lineup trackers are NSOs, despite their job of recording lineups and penalty box in-outs having no impact on the outcome of the bout.

All that aside, I have no problem with refs, NSOs and Stats folks getting in the lineup for the victory (and/or the "thanks for playing!") lap. Sometimes I think we get our panties in budge over far too much. As for cheering or high-fiving, that's bad form.
Title: Re: NSO Impartiality - When Does It End?
Post by: Sven WillIBeFamous on September 10, 2010, 09:12:03 am
What about the ones whose job has no impact on the outcome of the bout? WFTDA recently seems to have decided that lineup trackers are NSOs, despite their job of recording lineups and penalty box in-outs having no impact on the outcome of the bout.

If they're wearing the same uniform as the other NSOs then they should behave the same.  Members of the crowd may not know the distinction between the line-up trackers and other NSOs so if they start looking partial to one team then it could affect the way the other impartial NSOs are perceived.

Title: Re: NSO Impartiality - When Does It End?
Post by: JoeXCore on September 10, 2010, 11:54:58 am
Around these parts I'm pretty sure stats folks don't usually wear the same uniform as NSOs.
Title: Re: NSO Impartiality - When Does It End?
Post by: The Gorram Reaver on September 19, 2010, 05:26:15 pm
What about the ones whose job has no impact on the outcome of the bout? WFTDA recently seems to have decided that lineup trackers are NSOs, despite their job of recording lineups and penalty box in-outs having no impact on the outcome of the bout.
It only has "no impact on the outcome of the bout" until there's a penalty that needs to be assigned from a Pivot in a jam that just ended when everyone has already removed their helmet covers.  At that point, Line-Up Trackers, and the job they do, have a definite potential to impact the game.
Title: Re: NSO Impartiality - When Does It End?
Post by: kornable on September 19, 2010, 11:54:05 pm
yeah last game i head reffed i was chasing someone into the box inbetween jams when the lineup tracker came and told me she had the pivot cover on last jam, so i was able to get her in the box with the pivot cover as well, (a small thing yet still impact on the game)
Title: Re: NSO Impartiality - When Does It End?
Post by: Flat Track Protocol (FTP #21) on October 03, 2010, 05:02:20 am
So Jared, do your referees do the same?

Yes, but the "high fiving" is part of the skate past by both teams, it's not to one team or the other.  It's a sportsman-like congrats to all involved.. Both teams, NSOs and Refs.   It's not part of team celebrations.

J