Zebra Huddle™

Non-Skating Officials => Working with Referees => Topic started by: Beau T. Call on September 20, 2010, 04:40:54 pm

Title: Cross-Training
Post by: Beau T. Call on September 20, 2010, 04:40:54 pm
I am training to become a skating referee. I have pretty much always been on skates for bouts and scrimmages.  Recently, I had the opportunity to be a score keeper (skeeper? ^_^) for a bout.

I came away from that experience with two main benefits: a deeper respect for the men and women behind the clipboards, and a few observations about what I would want a jam Ref to do (or not do).  It was a very rewarding experience that I hope to repeat at practice.

Does anyone else have opinions about the benefits and/or drawbacks of referees cross-training as NSOs? Or NSOs cross-training in different positions?
Title: Re: Cross-Training
Post by: Cliquework on September 20, 2010, 05:17:56 pm
Nothing but benifit really. Nothing wrong with knowing more. Makes for a well rounded Ref or NSO that can be put anywhere.
Title: Re: Cross-Training
Post by: Darkjester on September 20, 2010, 06:00:07 pm
I fully support Referees being versed and practiced in all NSO positions, as well as learning all Ref positions as well. You never know when 4 minutes before the bout someones skate breaks and they end up NSO'ing, or you have too many referees and need another WBO, PT, etc.,

Title: Re: Cross-Training
Post by: reflmao on September 20, 2010, 06:12:54 pm
At RCRD we make cross-training part of our training process.  We require skating refs to work all of the NSO positions in a scrimmage or bout before we'll schedule them as a skating ref in a bout.  

The justification is partially what you just described and partially that we understand refs may need to fill in any role, at any bout, at any time, and we want them to know what they're doing when it happens.  

This training has come in useful as it lets us start using a practice I learned at ECE.  We schedule a skating ref at the announcer table.  They are there to help the announcers with recognizing calls, understanding the rules, and can join time out discussions to bring info back to the announcers and keep them informed.  They are also our substitute for any position and fill in if someone doesn't show, or god forbid, gets hurt.

As for NSOs, we try encourage our regulars to know all the positions for the same substitution reasons but we don't required it.  There are some that only want to work one position and that's OK too.  

Title: Re: Cross-Training
Post by: JimmyRage on September 20, 2010, 06:54:30 pm
Does anyone else have opinions about the benefits and/or drawbacks of referees cross-training as NSOs? Or NSOs cross-training in different positions?

This is a good thing. If you're an NSO who also refs you'll know how refs work and vice versa. It makes for better efficiency and less time wasted - having NSOs who know the hand signals and penalties just as well as the refs do makes for a wonderful bout. Especially if this means whiteboards and trackers who already have half of the penalty you're reporting jotted down by the time you skate up to them or shout out the penalty.

In my experience it doesn't happen as much as I'd like. But when it does oh man it's beautiful.
Title: Re: Cross-Training
Post by: DayGlo Divine on September 21, 2010, 10:12:24 pm
Does anyone else have opinions about the benefits and/or drawbacks of referees cross-training as NSOs? Or NSOs cross-training in different positions?

Cross training in different positions means having the versatility to handle the unexpected. As others have pointed out, !@#% happens. Sometimes refs get injured during games. Sometimes they underperform to the point where they should be replaced if at all possible. Sometimes leagues have more refs than they need for a game, but are short-staffed for NSOs. Sometimes people get sick, have family emergencies, have car trouble on the way to the game, get called in for overtime at the last minute, and so on. Sometimes you go to a bout as a spectator and find yourself wielding a clipboard or putting on your skates. (On that note, never go to bouts without your ref gear and/or NSO shirt in the trunk of your car.) And sometimes you find yourself head reffing a game for a neighboring league where the ref crew is short-staffed in both numbers and experience because there's a regional tournament that weekend, and not a single NSO has done his/her job before. That exact situation happened to me in 2008. I trained the entire NSO crew in the hour before the bout, on top of the ref meeting, the coach/captain meeting, and responding to an endless string of sentences that began with "Hey, DayGlo" and ended with some minor emergency or another. It was not easy. But it would have been a lot harder, if not impossible, had I not performed every one of those jobs.

Cross training is also very important for less tangible reasons. Namely, it gives people a respect for roles that they might not typically perform. There have been many instances when I've seen referees treat NSOs poorly. Typically, those people have never NSOed themselves and thus have little recognition of or respect for how hard their jobs are, or what they personally could do to make things easier (i.e., louder calls, clearer hand signals). There's no better way to ensure turnover than to be completely unencouraging of other people's efforts as volunteers and completely unable to support them in any meaningful way, but sadly, it happens a lot. And even as skill sets and expectations for each referee position have become more clearly defined, and even as higher-level games are increasingly fully staffed with very experienced refs, people still have misconceptions about what each position requires or turn up their noses at positions they think are beneath them. IPR and HR roles are for people who can't skate, OPR is the right field of refereeing, jammer reffing is a status symbol of referee awesomeness, and so on and so on. Actually performing multiple positions does a lot to quell those misconceptions.
Title: Re: Cross-Training
Post by: Illegal Syntax on September 22, 2010, 12:18:53 am
Cross training is great for Refs and Skaters I believe. New girls that haven't been involved in a game besides practice can be beneficial to the team while gaining a grasp on how the different positions work, learn how to navigate the venue for serving penalties, and see how skater and ref interactions go during a game. As a ref it is good to get back into the NSO spots to keep up your skills, or be handy in situations were other teams might be short NSOs. We've probably all been in the NSO position that everybody else was newer and didn't know exactly what to do and as a good cross trained ref/skater/NSO you can easily do 2 or more things at once in the middle to help others out.
Title: Re: Cross-Training
Post by: mick hawkins on September 22, 2010, 01:08:24 am
Does anyone else have opinions about the benefits and/or drawbacks of referees cross-training as NSOs? Or NSOs cross-training in different positions?

I make all our new refs work in a couple of NSO positions - I think it's a great way to learn more about the game and a good intro to what bouts are like (they can be pretty different to scrimmages). I think Refs benefit from working in NSO positions once they're reffing too.

I asked a similar question here (in the ref only section) (http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=853.0) about should refs focus on one position or try others

From that discussion i learned that refs need to be great in at least one particular position yet able to work other positions too. i think the same applies to NSOs also

Having said that, i find that many of our regular NSOs like to stay in the same position game after game.
Considering that good NSOs can be hard to come by, i'm happy to let them work where they want to work
Title: Re: Cross-Training
Post by: WheelSmith on September 28, 2010, 07:20:01 am
I too think cross training is great for officials. I've done a lot of NSO work the past two years. As have most all of the refs in the league I work with. One of our NSO's says he really prefers to NSO, but has been doing a lot of skating at practice. And I think it's great for him because as has been stated a bunch here already, it gives us all more experience, more versatility.
Title: Re: Cross-Training
Post by: Riff Reff on September 28, 2010, 12:32:08 pm
I say having "NSOed" is a must for a referee...

and playing the game yourself also doesn't hurt ... oh wait a minute... ;)

(but I will tell my grand children how I got sent to the box by Miss Trial for a low block...)
Title: Re: Cross-Training
Post by: Flat Track Protocol (FTP #21) on October 03, 2010, 05:00:50 am
I agree completely with Riff Reff. 

There is a reason that the WFTDA accreditation process for referees starts with having had a substantial amount of NSO experience.   I personally NSO'd every job for over a year before I even considered Refereeing and feel I'm a better referee for it.

J
Title: Re: Cross-Training
Post by: DayGlo Divine on October 03, 2010, 11:33:33 pm
There is a reason that the WFTDA accreditation process for referees starts with having had a substantial amount of NSO experience. 

That's not the case at all. It's fully possible to become a certified referee without having NSOed before.

http://wftda.com/officiating/levels-of-certification

Title: Re: Cross-Training
Post by: Flat Track Protocol (FTP #21) on October 20, 2010, 02:29:00 pm
There is a reason that the WFTDA accreditation process for referees starts with having had a substantial amount of NSO experience. 

That's not the case at all. It's fully possible to become a certified referee without having NSOed before.

http://wftda.com/officiating/levels-of-certification


That page suggests to me that a Level 1 WFTDA certified referee is certified for NSO duties.   I guess it is feasible for a referee to graduate from Level 1 to Level 2 (Skating referee duties) without having NSO'd, however somewhat unlikely, I feel.
Title: Re: Cross-Training
Post by: Jessticular Fortitude on October 20, 2010, 02:42:30 pm
There is a reason that the WFTDA accreditation process for referees starts with having had a substantial amount of NSO experience. 

That's not the case at all. It's fully possible to become a certified referee without having NSOed before.

http://wftda.com/officiating/levels-of-certification


That page suggests to me that a Level 1 WFTDA certified referee is certified for NSO duties.   I guess it is feasible for a referee to graduate from Level 1 to Level 2 (Skating referee duties) without having NSO'd, however somewhat unlikely, I feel.

Skating refs can skip Level 1 altogether, and therefore aren't required to NSO since the relevant evaluations for Level 2+ are for skating positions.
Title: Re: Cross-Training
Post by: Eject You Later on October 20, 2010, 03:27:46 pm
Skating refs can skip Level 1 altogether, and therefore aren't required to NSO since the relevant evaluations for Level 2+ are for skating positions.

Can I have some clarification of this?  Our league just became Apprentice certified, and our refs (myself included) are working towards certification.  I understand that we can apply for level 2 certification right off the bat, and skip level 1 certification. 

But as I read the certification requirements, level 2 has 2 requirements to fulfill:

Quote
Level 2:

* All Level 1 requirements met
* Must pass league-administered skating skills test

Level 1 requirements are the following:

Quote
Level 1

* Three (3) Referee Performance Evaluations from WFTDA member leagues (NOT the referee’s home league) must be turned in
* Verification of passed league-administered rules test
* Signed WFTDA Referee Code of Conduct Agreement
* Signed WFTDA Non-Disclosure Agreement

So it would appear to me that to be a level 2 ref we will have to satisfy the requirements of the level 1 as well when we apply.  Are the 3 ref performance evaluations not to be done while we are NSO'ing?  Ie., can the performance evals be done while we are performing skating referee duties?

We have been operating under the premiss that we need to be evaluated as NSO's in order to satisfy the level 1 qualifications, plus passing the skating skills test in order to apply for level 2 certification.  And I'm fine with this because, as has been stated by others, doing NSO work is valuable experience for a referee to have.  But if this isn't required to apply for level 2...

Could someone please clarify the requirements?  I'd appreciate it.

Thank you!
Title: Re: Cross-Training
Post by: Jessticular Fortitude on October 20, 2010, 04:18:24 pm
It does not specify which duties you have to do to get those Referee Performance Evaluations. If you are solely an NSO, it's in your best interest to have evaluations from bouts where you performed NSO duties, but if you are a referee and want to be certified as a referee, then you should get evaluations for THOSE duties. Think about what Ref Cert has to do- they are evaluating you and your performance. If they don't know you, and you want to be certified as a skating referee, wouldn't it make more sense to have evaluations that state your qualifications as a skating referee? It also doesn't say that you have to have 3 evaluations from one job- so you can have one as an outside pack ref, one as a jammer ref, etc. More evaluations give a more complete image of You, The Official, so go ahead and request evaluations of your NSO performace as well, but they are not required if you are mainly a skating referee.

Murder, correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: Cross-Training
Post by: Professor Murder on October 20, 2010, 05:40:06 pm
That's correct.  It's not a requirement, if applying for L2 Cert, to have evals for skating positions.  But it makes more sense - we can't properly assess a person's credentials as a skating referee if their evaluations are all for non-skating positions.
Title: Re: Cross-Training
Post by: Eject You Later on October 20, 2010, 06:24:11 pm
Ok.  My assumption was that since Level 1 certification fell under the heading, "Non-skating officials, able to perform non-referee officiating duties for WFTDA sanctioned interleague play" that the evaluations were to be for those duties even though it didn't explicitly state this.  And since to apply for a Level 2 certification you have to have met the Level 1 certification requirements... well, there we go. :)

I understand.  And yes, it does make sense that a skating official should have evaluations skating.  However... let's pretend that I was only interested in NSO work.  I had my evaluations and was certified as a Level 1 referee.  A year goes by and I decide that being a referee would be fun, so I get some skates and train.  To apply for Level 2 referee I only need to pass the skills test, correct?

So what it appears to me (and please correct me if I am mistaken), is that to be a WFTDA certified Level 2 skating referee you need no skating experience nor evaluations of refereeing a bout.  But from the viewpoint of the certification committee and for one's own goal of becoming better, it is preferred to have some of the evaluations done while you are performing referee duties.  Is that accurate?

Finally, one last question. 

The evaluation guideline reads:
Quote
Three (3) Referee Performance Evaluations from WFTDA member leagues (NOT the referee’s home league) must be turned in.
Is there any criteria for this?  In other words:

*  Does it have to be 3 separate people evaluating you? 
*  Does it have have to be 3 separate incidents, or can 3 people evaluate the same task?  Ie., let's say I'm reffing a bout and we have 3 WFTDA league members not from my league in attendance.  Can all 3 fill out an evaluation on me and satisfy the requirement for 3, or is it 1 evaluation per task?
Does it even have to be a bout? I read through the evaluation form and see that it clearly states "all WFTDA sanctioned and regular bouts."  So it would appear this question is answered.

I would assume that the intent would be to have 3 separate evaluations done for 3 separate tasks (they could all be OPR, for instance, but not for the same bout).  But I guess I may be reading too much into the certification process...

I appreciate the guidance and advice. 
Title: Re: Cross-Training
Post by: Jessticular Fortitude on October 20, 2010, 07:42:47 pm
http://wftda.com/officiating/levels-of-certification

Look at the description of the levels of certification. Level 2 says
Quote
Able to perform skating referee duties for WFTDA sanctioned interleague play.
How could you obtain Level 2 without having actually performed skating referee duties for WFTDA sanctioned play? You need proof of that somehow, and the evaluations explain how you did in those roles. So you DO need those evaluations. The skating skills test is there to prove that you also know how to skate well, and can keep up during a bout. Certification is not for new officials. It is for people who have experience reffing sanctioned play and have proven themselves to be good at it. Also from that link:

Quote
The WFTDA Referee Certification Committee determines if officials are advanced enough to be WFTDA Certified and if so classifies them, which is in accordance with the status of WFTDA Roller Derby.

You need more than the bare minimum to prove that you should be certified.

As far as who can evaluate you, see this link http://wftda.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/evaluation-instructions.pdf The league reps are for the 2 teams who are playing in the bout. The head referee is the head referee for that bout. So you can request at most 3 per bout- 1 from each team and one from the head referee, unless you "belong" to one of those leagues. If the head ref also belongs to the same league as you, you can't get an evaluation from him or her. You can also get evaluations that you don't request from special people, such as members of Ref Cert. This happens at major WFTDA tournaments.

I hope that answered your questions!
Title: Re: Cross-Training
Post by: SeerSin on October 20, 2010, 07:51:06 pm
Keep in mind that 3 evals is the minimum. The bout you receive an eval for must be WFTDA regulation(between 2 wftda leagues, home team bouts don't count), or sanctioned. If you guest ref for a sanctioned or regulation bout you could receive 3 evaluations from 1 bout. 1 from each team and 1 from the head ref. That meets the requirement, but really 1 bout isn't enough. I recommend having 10 or more evals(my personal opinion, not based on anything from ref cert) in addition to contacting WFTDA refs you've worked with and asking them to send in comments when you go up for certification. This gives ref cert a broader view of your performance over time and aids them in giving you good feedback on your strengths and weaknesses.
Title: Re: Cross-Training
Post by: Eject You Later on October 20, 2010, 09:19:18 pm
Ok, that makes more sense.  Thank you.  :)
Title: Re: Cross-Training
Post by: high angle hell on October 20, 2010, 09:31:09 pm
I am training to become a skating referee. I have pretty much always been on skates for bouts and scrimmages.  Recently, I had the opportunity to be a score keeper (skeeper? ^_^) for a bout.

I came away from that experience with two main benefits: a deeper respect for the men and women behind the clipboards, and a few observations about what I would want a jam Ref to do (or not do).  It was a very rewarding experience that I hope to repeat at practice.

Does anyone else have opinions about the benefits and/or drawbacks of referees cross-training as NSOs? Or NSOs cross-training in different positions?

Having experience in both NSO positions as well as Referee is a huge plus. You never know when you may need to jump in and cover someone's position. Not only is a benefit for you as person you are also very helpful for your league as well as other leagues. I am referee for our league but I have been going to Nashville and training with there NSO crew and now I do both. Worked with several teams this year! You never know when you will be called in at bout or from home to come help out! Keep up what your doing.. Encourge more people to do so as well. I will be doing the same next year as well. Gives you a better understanding where each position comes from and there understanding of there job!