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Non-Skating Officials => Working with Referees => Topic started by: Grief Eriksson on January 30, 2011, 09:25:55 pm

Title: Insubordination?
Post by: Grief Eriksson on January 30, 2011, 09:25:55 pm
Wasn't sure if this should go here or in the rules discussion, but I was NSO'ing during the situation.

I was supervising the penalty box at a scrimmage this week. As a skater was entering the box she made an inappropriate/obscene (as in I won't post it here) comment concerning the ref who called her off. No refs heard it, but it was loud enough for me and my crew to hear.

Should I have reported this to a ref?

Later on the same skater was given an insubordination major for talking back to a ref, if that makes a difference.
Title: Re: Insubordination?
Post by: Major Wood on January 30, 2011, 10:20:43 pm
It might be worth mentioning to the head referee. This is not an insubordination, though. Insubordination is willfully failing to comply with an official's orders. This falls under misconduct.
Title: Re: Insubordination?
Post by: Grief Eriksson on January 31, 2011, 04:14:27 am
thank you for the correction - I always confuse those two terms.

I mainly wasn't sure if I should have said something while the bout was still going on, or just wait until afterwards to broach it.
Title: Re: Insubordination?
Post by: mick hawkins on January 31, 2011, 09:48:14 am
I mainly wasn't sure if I should have said something while the bout was still going on, or just wait until afterwards to broach it.

i reckon... either.
Try to get the HR's attention - but don;t worry if you can't
If you have a PB manager with a white board - try to communicate it that way
(I think most HR;s look to the box as they pass each lap)

I tell NSOs to wait until the jam's over and then come and tell me about such things - if they can't easily get my attention while in the box

That is... don't leave your post, we can deal with it after the jam.
Title: Re: Insubordination?
Post by: Eject You Later on January 31, 2011, 12:17:50 pm
Try to get the HR's attention - but don;t worry if you can't
If you have a PB manager with a white board - try to communicate it that way
(I think most HR;s look to the box as they pass each lap)

Or flag down an Outside Pack Ref.  While I don't know if it is fairly common or not, the majority of bouts that I've worked at the OPRs are instructed to watch the penalty box during their pass to look for the NSOs that need something (skater leaves early, etc).

Just tell the OPR that you have a skater issue that you want to tell the HR about at the end of the current jam, and the OPR can, when the jam is over, skate quickly to the middle and ask the HR to go talk to that NSO.  I would prefer this to having the NSO get up and leave the penalty box; no telling what any skates in the box will do if the NSO leaves their post!  :)
Title: Re: Insubordination?
Post by: Major Wood on January 31, 2011, 01:31:44 pm
I would actually prefer that neither of those happen (informing an OPR or requesting that an NSO not leave their post). Given this specific instance, here are my reasons:

1) Almost every single league uses 3 penalty box timers. The person timing jammer penalties is almost always designated as the penalty box manager. This is the exact kind of scenario where the manager would be interacting with the head referee. They can easily do this by running out to the head referee in between jams. Why are you worried about what the skaters would do in the penalty box, when there are still two officials right there?

2) Watching the play in progress is far more important. When there is a fast pack, you have very little time in between rotations. What I'm going to point out is based on my experience at tournaments. In many cases, the pack was doing a lap in 8-9 seconds. For the sake of discussion, I'm going to say the pack is doing 8 second laps. You start your lap significantly clockwise from where the whiteboard is located, and you follow the pack to a little past the whiteboard (how far past is depending on the specific situation). Though it is called half lap skate and wait, you should be skating more than a half lap. I normally skate closer to 3/4 lap. After overshooting the whiteboard, you continue to watch the pack until you are unable to effectively see anything. Up to this point, you've eaten up probably 4-5 seconds of that lap time, leaving you 3-4 seconds to get back into position and ready to go. While you are getting in position and ready, you should be watching the pack and looking for any action that will be needing your attention.
In this scenario, there are maybe 1-2 seconds where the outside pack ref is not watching the pack. That time should be spent skating to their starting position, which can be as far as a 1/4 track away. Why should they be distracted, when the penalty box manager can handle it between jams without any ill effect?

Before anyone asks about overshooting and starting clockwise from the outside whiteboard, watch just about any tournament bout. The outside whiteboard is not your station. Just about every single tournament OPR skates right past the outside whiteboard during their rotation and after. The only time they stop there is when reporting a penalty, then they continue on into position.
Title: Re: Insubordination?
Post by: Doctor Skatan on January 31, 2011, 02:01:21 pm
If the ref the comment was about didn't hear it, then it wasn't directed at the official so I wouldn't bother with it at all in that situation.
In practice yesterday I was the only ref there, I majored a skater & she decided to debate with me about the call during the jam. I calmly said "[skater's name], just get off.". As she left for the box she apparently did a lot of cursing about me & the call I made (it might have been wrong, but I was reffing alone). I never heard it so I didn't care.

I reckon skaters are entitled to express their opinions of refs/calls out of earshot of the referees without having to face repercussions.
Title: Re: Insubordination?
Post by: Darkjester on January 31, 2011, 03:49:27 pm
Its a little bit of both Skatan.

It IS still directed at an Official even if that official didn't hear it. However, I am also of the mindset, if I didn't hear it (Whether directed at me or at another Official) I can't call it, but I will back up and defend my fellow Zeebs and NSO's. NSO's should not have to put up with abuse while performing their duty. If I didn't hear it myself and it was directed at me, I might not penalize it, but I 'might' say something to the Captains next meeting about reminding their skaters to watch their language/gestures.
Title: Re: Insubordination?
Post by: Major Wood on January 31, 2011, 03:57:42 pm
If I didn't hear it myself and it was directed at me, I might not penalize it, but I 'might' say something to the Captains next meeting about reminding their skaters to watch their language/gestures.

Yes, this. Providing that you are the head ref.
Title: Re: Insubordination?
Post by: Darkjester on January 31, 2011, 03:59:55 pm
Right.
Title: Re: Insubordination?
Post by: Doctor Skatan on January 31, 2011, 04:11:53 pm
That's a good point. Even if you don't take offence once informed, NSOs & spectators within earshot might have a different opinion of abusive language whoever it's directed at.
Title: Re: Insubordination?
Post by: Eject You Later on January 31, 2011, 05:57:47 pm
I would actually prefer that neither of those happen (informing an OPR or requesting that an NSO not leave their post).

Understood.

Quote
Before anyone asks about overshooting and starting clockwise from the outside whiteboard, watch just about any tournament bout. The outside whiteboard is not your station. Just about every single tournament OPR skates right past the outside whiteboard during their rotation and after. The only time they stop there is when reporting a penalty, then they continue on into position.

Yes, I actually noticed this for the first time at nationals.  And it was you that I was seeing the overly pronounced "wandering" as you'd skate forward past the whiteboard to keep an eye on the pack, then slide back past the whiteboard to the other turn as the pack came back around.

After nationals I brought that back and have adopted it while skating on the outside.  It helps keeping the pack in view at all times.  I wasn't aware that it was something we were supposed to be doing (officially or unofficially), just something that I noticed being done that made a lot of sense to me. 
Title: Re: Insubordination?
Post by: Major Wood on January 31, 2011, 06:41:22 pm
Definitely an unofficial common practice.
Title: Re: Insubordination?
Post by: Grief Eriksson on February 04, 2011, 11:15:37 pm
Its a little bit of both Skatan.

It IS still directed at an Official even if that official didn't hear it. However, I am also of the mindset, if I didn't hear it (Whether directed at me or at another Official) I can't call it, but I will back up and defend my fellow Zeebs and NSO's. NSO's should not have to put up with abuse while performing their duty. If I didn't hear it myself and it was directed at me, I might not penalize it, but I 'might' say something to the Captains next meeting about reminding their skaters to watch their language/gestures.


See - that was more the issue to me. I knew how and when to get a Ref's attention - it was more an issue of whether or not this warranted immediate action or not. If it is loud enough for me to hear, it's potentially loud enough for fans to hear - but does that make it worth turning into a potential misconduct penalty? Would it even be one, since a ref didn't hear it, and an NSO can't give out penalties? Or just let the HR bring it up with the coaches/captains at the half/after the bout?
Title: Re: Insubordination?
Post by: mick hawkins on February 05, 2011, 12:20:16 am
I would actually prefer that neither of those happen (informing an OPR or requesting that an NSO not leave their post). Given this specific instance, here are my reasons:

1) Almost every single league uses 3 penalty box timers. The person timing jammer penalties is almost always designated as the penalty box manager. This is the exact kind of scenario where the manager would be interacting with the head referee. They can easily do this by running out to the head referee in between jams. Why are you worried about what the skaters would do in the penalty box, when there are still two officials right there?
I think this was in response to my comment above (as far as leaving their post)?

I'm not worried about what skaters would do in the box. (I didn't say that the Timers should never leave the box)

I think what i said was pretty similar to what you've suggested...
Quote from: me
If you have a PB manager with a white board - try to communicate it that way
(I think most HR's look to the box as they pass each lap)
I tell NSOs to wait until the jam's over and then come and tell me about such things - if they can't easily get my attention while in the box
That is... don't leave your post, we can deal with it after the jam.

To clarify - I tell inexperienced penalty box timers (that if they cant get my attention easily) not to worry because issues can be dealt with between jams. No, it's not it's not ideal - but it avoids them having a panic and running onto the track during a jam if/when something happens (which I've experienced)