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Older Rulesets => 3.x Rules => Rules Discussion 3.x => Topic started by: Treble Damage on February 25, 2009, 03:21:15 am

Title: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Treble Damage on February 25, 2009, 03:21:15 am
What is the authority in the Rules for the "point of no return"?

When I am operating as a penalty timer, my understanding is that I am not to begin timing a skater's penalty if she passes the box and then enters it from the clockwise direction, having passed the "point of no return," i.e. the end of the box.  I know that this is my responsibility because the Best Practices document tells me so, on page 5, stating: "If not timing a skater for any reason (skater is not sitting, skater entered the wrong direction) the timer should inform the skater of this." 

In both of the leagues with which I regularly officiate, the penalty box is positioned alongside the track, situated between the team's benches, as well as between the jammer and pivot lines.  Although this layout is not mandated by the Rules, I think it's common in WFTDA leagues.  In our leagues, we delineate the "point of no return" with a line of tape on the floor in the ref lane, perpendicular to the straightaway. 

To observe a skater pass the box, turn around and sit down, and then tell her, "You are not being timed because you passed the box," is one of the closest things to "making a call" that I do as a penalty timer.   It is also very frustrating, because of its uneven effect.    It usually occurs because the skater misjudged her speed, and so she is skidding along the floor, grabbing at the chairs, as she slides past the box.  Almost invariably, this only happens to skaters on the team that sits on the side of the box closer to the pivot line.  The skaters on the other team, unless they're going really, really fast, even if they skid and grab for their seats, will still be in the penalty box (in front of / entangled with the other team's chairs) when they stop.

The frustration finally got the better of me.  And it turns out that, aside from the indirect reference in the Best Practices that I already mentioned, I can find no support in the Rules for refusing to time a skater's penalty if she passes the "point of no return."

The best I can find in 3.1 is this:
Quote
6.4.2 When a skater is sent to the penalty box, she must immediately exit the track and
skate to the penalty box in the counter-clockwise direction.
6.4.2.1 Additional penalties will be assessed if she cuts the track or approaches the
penalty box from the wrong direction.

This would support giving the skater an "additional penalty" (presumably a minor?) for skating clockwise to sit in the box after passing the point of no return.  I don't see that it justifies refusing to time the penalty, despite what the Best Practices document says.  Under 6.4.3, "The penalty clock starts when the skater is seated in the penalty box...." 

I am pretty sure I have not been "calling" this incorrectly - by which I mean: if it is incorrect, it's an incorrectness that is widespread and supported by the WFTDA official Best Practices.  At a recent sanctioned bout at which I had to make this "call," it was challenged by the affected team and upheld by the Head Ref.  But I am honestly troubled not to find more support for it in the Rules.  Is it somewhere I just haven't looked?

-Treble Damage
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Rev. Riot on February 25, 2009, 04:16:50 am
There are other penalties than minors or majors. Refusing to time a penalty until the skater takes a lap penalizes the skater, no? If a skater has passed the point of no return, she will need to either take a lap, or will need to approach the box from the wrong direction. I agree that it's not ideal that the typical point of no return is advantageous to one team. I can suggest two solutions:

1) make two points of no return, one for each team

2) What we've done here in Madison is, from the far edge of the penalty box, imagine a line out to the track (this is your typical point of no return), from the point that it actually intersects with the TRACK, start a line heading forward at a 45 degree angle, and make that the point of no return line. Yes, it extends the box past the penalty box, but it evens things out in that either team can step out while at the box without needing to take a lap. Beyond that I can't explain it verbally, it really demands trying to understand, but our skaters have really liked it.

Riot
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Treble Damage on February 25, 2009, 04:33:07 am
There are other penalties than minors or majors.

Not to be facetious, but O RLY? 

Refusing to time a penalty until the skater takes a lap penalizes the skater, no?

Yeah, but so would tying her skatelaces together.  I agree that the Rules support the existence of a "Point of No Return," and that if the skater passes it, she must either (a) skate around again, or (b) enter the box from the wrong direction.  But is there anything in the Rules that suggests that, if she chooses option (b), her "penalty" should be that her penalty timer does not start?

The solutions you have proposed work fine to eliminate the inequity problem.  And I don't really quibble with the concept of not starting the penalty timer, as a Thing that Ought to Be Done.  And clearly it is sanctioned by WFTDA, since it's in the Best Practices (if only kind of in passing).  I'm just kind of disturbed to not actually find it in the Rules.

-Treble
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: L8R SK8R on February 25, 2009, 12:11:32 pm
I believe the "Point of no Return" is basically just a name given in the Best Practices for the point at which the skater is no longer skating to the box in the counter-clockwise direction. If a skater passes the box even by a foot, and turns around to get back, they are now skating in the clockwise direction, and thus must make another lap. I've watched many skaters slide on their knee pads right past the "Point" and get all pissed off that they have to take another lap. My answer to this is: stop sooner, or skate slower. Its better to spend an extra 6 seconds getting to the box, than an extra 23 taking another lap. Don't think of the "Point of no Return" as something made up in the Best Practices. Think of it as a way to make sure we properly penalize skaters who approach the box from the wrong direction.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Major Wood on February 25, 2009, 01:22:38 pm
I personally like the idea that a skater either skates another lap, or gets an illegal procedure penalty for skating clockwise to the box.
That penalty is there for a reason and if the box timer just doesn't time them until they take another lap, they aren't getting the minor penalty they earned.
That said, I understand why the method of only starting penalty time after properly reporting to the box is used by so many. It is often a difficult rule to enforce because it would require a ref to happen to be looking at the penalty box to see a skater turn around and skate in the wrong direction to the box. Many of these instances get missed.

As far as one team being at a disadvantage for this penalty, I like the idea of two points of no return. It seems like a simple, but effective method to prevent this inequity.
I have seen one other method; Teams switch at the half. So both teams have that disadvantage for one period. In a three period game, this does not really even things up.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Darkjester on February 26, 2009, 02:47:33 am
That or position your penalty boxes in such a way there isn't an advantage to either team.

A) In the Infield.
B) At the edge of 1 of the corners, or if the teams are on opposing corners the 'midway' in between the two team boxes along the straight away.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Rev. Riot on February 26, 2009, 04:14:17 am
Wood, the problem with using the switch at the half to even things out is that, inevitably, skaters go to the box more in the second half (as a whole). So one team is still at an advantage.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Major Wood on February 26, 2009, 04:21:43 am
Wood, the problem with using the switch at the half to even things out is that, inevitably, skaters go to the box more in the second half (as a whole). So one team is still at an advantage.

I agree. Even if the 2nd period weren't typically more penalty-heavy, one of the periods would likely be . I was offering it as another option that I have seen.

I do really like the 2 points of no return though. I can't seem to find a way that it would give either team an advantage.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Treble Damage on February 26, 2009, 05:44:50 am
I do really like the 2 points of no return though. I can't seem to find a way that it would give either team an advantage.

I like it too, but there is a possible lopsided advantage - but in this case, it's the jammer-side team rather than the pivot-side team who gets impacted, and also I don't feel as bad about it.  The issue is that skaters often get confused and come in and initially sit on the wrong side of the box - especially near the start of the bout.  If there were two points of no return, jammer-side skaters who went and sat on the pivot-side of the box would have missed "their" box, and be told to skate around again, while pivot-side skaters who sat on the jammer side could just slide down the bench. 

But although the lopsided impact is a worry, my initial concern really was not with the inequity, but rather with the authority for the punishing missing the box by refusing to start the penalty clock until you do another lap around the track.  Does anyone know where this practice originated? 

-Treble

-Treble
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: L8R SK8R on February 26, 2009, 12:24:05 pm
But although the lopsided impact is a worry, my initial concern really was not with the inequity, but rather with the authority for the punishing missing the box by refusing to start the penalty clock until you do another lap around the track.  Does anyone know where this practice originated? 

6.4.2 When a skater is sent to the penalty box, she must immediately exit the track and skate to the penalty box in the counter-clockwise direction.

6.4.3 The penalty clock starts when the skater is seated in the penalty box (with exceptions see Section 6.4.2.3). The penalty clock only runs when the jam clock is running. If a penalty spans multiple jams, the penalty clock will stop between jams.

That's pretty cut and dry. The skater must skate to the box from a counter-clockwise direction. If she skates clockwise she must follow the rules and take another lap so she is skating to it from a counter-clockwise direction. When she does this properly she may then sit down, which is the only way her time will start. So if a penalty timer is starting the penalty time before all of this happens correctly then they are breaking the rules and hurting the game.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: noidd on February 26, 2009, 01:28:45 pm
That's pretty cut and dry. The skater must skate to the box from a counter-clockwise direction. If she skates clockwise she must follow the rules and take another lap so she is skating to it from a counter-clockwise direction. When she does this properly she may then sit down, which is the only way her time will start. So if a penalty timer is starting the penalty time before all of this happens correctly then they are breaking the rules and hurting the game.

I don't think anyone disagrees that that is how it is supposed to happen.  The question for me is, what instructions do you give to a penalty box NSO who, when they instruct a skater to skate around again has the skater refuse and just sit down.

Should they not start the timer and it turns into a battle of will between the skater and the NSO until the NSO is able to flag down an OPR to make that call?

Before the last bout that I NSO'd the penalty box I would have said yes.

fwiw, I've never had a skater refuse to go around again.  The closest I've come to that is that I've told a skater to go around again and she started to.  When she got to the first outside pack-ref "skate and wait station" the pack-ref stopped her and escorted her back to the box the wrong-way telling me that he blocked her entry so she doesn't need to go around again.

At the end of the Jam the head-ref came over and chewed on me for not sending her around.  After I explained what happened he chewed on the OPR  ;D

Anyways, I don't believe the NSO would be breaking the rules by starting the timer as the rules state:
6.4.2.1 Additional penalties will be assessed if she cuts the track or approaches the penalty box from the wrong direction.

It doesn't state that she isn't considered in the box for timing purposes unless she enters in the correct direction or anything to that affect.  This reminds me of the Illegal vs Incomplete star-pass situation all over again.

So, as an NSO I would tend now to start the timer and flag down an OPR and let them assess the additional penalty or penalties for this action.  The question I would ask would be what penalty would that be?  IP Major?  Also, would the OPR take me at my word to the point of giving a major that the skater crossed the line and refused to go around again?

Still, as an NSO I would ask the head-ref for the game before the game how he would like me to handle it.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: L8R SK8R on February 26, 2009, 01:55:39 pm
I don't think anyone disagrees that that is how it is supposed to happen.  The question for me is, what instructions do you give to a penalty box NSO who, when they instruct a skater to skate around again has the skater refuse and just sit down.

Should they not start the timer and it turns into a battle of will between the skater and the NSO until the NSO is able to flag down an OPR to make that call?

To me, refusing to listen to an NSO is, in certain instances like this, on par with refusing to listen to a ref. The penalty timer is there to enfore the penalty timing procedure. Skaters must follow this procedure, as it is in the rules. If a skater refused to listen to a penalty timer I would hit them with an insubordination major. Repeated offences would merit expulsion.

Anyways, I don't believe the NSO would be breaking the rules by starting the timer as the rules state:
6.4.2.1 Additional penalties will be assessed if she cuts the track or approaches the penalty box from the wrong direction.

It doesn't state that she isn't considered in the box for timing purposes unless she enters in the correct direction or anything to that affect.  This reminds me of the Illegal vs Incomplete star-pass situation all over again.

So, as an NSO I would tend now to start the timer and flag down an OPR and let them assess the additional penalty or penalties for this action.  The question I would ask would be what penalty would that be?  IP Major?  Also, would the OPR take me at my word to the point of giving a major that the skater crossed the line and refused to go around again?

Still, as an NSO I would ask the head-ref for the game before the game how he would like me to handle it.

The rules do say that the skater approach the box from the counter-clockwise direction, and thus anything other than that is not allowed. 6.4.2.1 says additional penalties, but not specifically what type of penalties. As Rev. mentioned earlier, making a skater take an extra lap before she can sit down is definitely an additional penalty. While the rules don't specifically say "If a girl enters the box in the clockwise direction, send her around again" the rules do say that a skater must approach the box from a CCW direction. If she approaches CW then she is breaking the rules and must follow them properly. Since she is not allowed to cut the track, the only way for her to follow the rules is to take another lap. If a penalty timer refuses to enforce this rule they, too, are guilty of hurting the game.

It is a good point of thought to make sure that when penalty timers are positioned, that this practice is explicitly explained to them, and that they understand they are not to stray from this procedure under any circumstances. If a skater decides to ignore the penalty timer and sits in the box for 30 seconds, they must still take the extra lap before the time can start.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Major Wood on February 26, 2009, 02:17:45 pm
I understand why this is an accepted alternative by many leagues.
However, the rules make no reference to any way that a skater can be penalized except minor, major, ejection, expulsion and suspension. That suggests to me that the penalty suggested by the rules would be an illegal procedure. If you use the logic of, "skating another lap is a penalty in itself" to be sufficient for the "additional penalties", it wouldn't be far fetched to say that they must skate 2 or 3 laps before reporting.
I know no one would do that, but it is a feasible interpretation using the same logic.

So my questions:
Where did the practice of sending a skater back around start, and why?
Why would it not be appropriate to simply get an outside pack ref (or inside if the box is in the infield) to report a penalty?
What authority would an NSO have in this situation? Are they authorized to notify a referee that a penalty has occurred involving the penalty box?
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Jessticular Fortitude on February 26, 2009, 02:23:07 pm
Has anybody tried putting the penalty boxes on opposite straightaways, with like a huge ass blinking neon sign above each saying which team goes in which one? How did that work out?
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Riff Reff on February 26, 2009, 02:30:13 pm
Quote
Why would it not be appropriate to simply get an outside pack ref (or inside if the box is in the infield) to report a penalty?
This is interesting to me since we are on this island here... I never heard of nor ever thought of sending away a skater approaching the box from the wrong direction.

So that is how we instruct the penalty timers: If a skater comes from the wrong direction, leaves the box early etc. - get an OPR, tell her/him to report this. OPR or Head Ref will issue an IP penalty to the respective skater.
Nothing in the rules says, send her away to approach from the right directions. (To me this is like telling a skater who committed a false start to get back behind the line and start again) It says it is a foul to do so and it has to be punished. It is an illegal procedure therefore IP penalty. I would even give her a Major for it, so 2 minutes in the box.
Is this wrong?
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Major Wood on February 26, 2009, 03:04:32 pm
If it is a penalty, I don't think that it is a major.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: L8R SK8R on February 26, 2009, 04:23:58 pm
This is interesting to me since we are on this island here... I never heard of nor ever thought of sending away a skater approaching the box from the wrong direction.

So that is how we instruct the penalty timers: If a skater comes from the wrong direction, leaves the box early etc. - get an OPR, tell her/him to report this. OPR or Head Ref will issue an IP penalty to the respective skater.
Nothing in the rules says, send her away to approach from the right directions. (To me this is like telling a skater who committed a false start to get back behind the line and start again) It says it is a foul to do so and it has to be punished. It is an illegal procedure therefore IP penalty. I would even give her a Major for it, so 2 minutes in the box.
Is this wrong?

Your assessment is fair. Unfortunately the IP section doesn't provide guidelines for this type of situation. But I think it is appropriate to use the OOP guidelines regarding measurable consequence on the game. After all, someone who avoids taking an extra lap around the box may exit the box many seconds before she would have, and a NOTT point can disappear earlier than it should have. A major sounds like an appropriate penalty for going to the box in the wrong direction.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: noidd on February 26, 2009, 06:40:48 pm

I agree with L8r here, it is definately a major given that not doing so conceivably would reduce the amount of time in the penalty box by 20 seconds.  There isn't really a good penalty class for this but OOP certainly seems fair and appropriate.

However, putting on my pedant hat and robe... it could be suggested that the NSO ordering the skater to do another lap is "coaching".  After all, they are giving a skater instructions on how to avoid a penalty.  A penalty which, knowing the rules they should know how to avoid themselves...

Unless the NSO called: "You entered the box from the wrong direction" as a warning and let them make their own descision.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Cliquework on February 26, 2009, 07:51:18 pm
Has anybody tried putting the penalty boxes on opposite straightaways, with like a huge ass blinking neon sign above each saying which team goes in which one? How did that work out?

Oddly enough, we're adding big ol' couches to the penalty box this year. Pretty hard to pass those, not to mention easier to crash into. It also may keep them from trying to leave early. As a tip to any NSO running penalty box, don't "count down to 0". They will leave early everytime. Just say "Go" when it's time.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Ref Neck on February 26, 2009, 07:59:04 pm
A major is overkill. Minor for IP, start their penalty time when the meat hits the seat. Written rules and common convention don't necessarily overlap. Rulesets used to be agreed upon prior to specific events (tournaments, multibout events). I believe that this is one of the agreed upon rules for a past event that became common convention despite the rule not being updated.

Remember you were supposed to give a penalty for IP when a skater left the box into the front of the pack? It didnt specify major/minor and ref discrection ran rampant causing inconsistent calls between officials. Now its a major for getting in front of two or more skaters in the pack clearly defined in the rules (and mirrors the cutting track penalties). Something similiar should probably be done for the approaching the box from the wrong direction.

The entire point of no return advantage/disadvantage argument seems weird to me. One bench is closer to the jammer line, one closer to the pivot line. Its a line, get behind it and stay there when you need to. Mountains and molehills.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: noidd on February 26, 2009, 09:40:02 pm
A major is overkill.

Would you call a major or minor penalty for someone leaving the penalty box at 40 seconds instead of waiting until 60?

It's the exact same effect.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Major Wood on February 26, 2009, 10:45:35 pm
I don't know where you're coming up with 20 seconds.

I agree that it is a minor.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Rev. Riot on February 26, 2009, 11:33:02 pm
The problem is that an NSO shouldn't be making a call regarding penalties. And a referee can only make calls on penalties they SEE. And this is one situation where it's almost always the NSO that sees it.

I'd further argue that since there is an outlined procedure, unless the penalty is started timing, the skater still has the opportunity to complete the procedure legally. Timers should not get into a shouting match, they should simply say "I'm not timing your penalty, you need to enter going skate-wise, and you didn't, you'll need to come around again first" and leave it at that.

And to head the half dozen of you off at the pass who're about to respond to the first part of my post, the penalty timer isn't actually making a call when they tell the head ref that a skater left the box early, they're reporting facts. Fact: she is on the track or on the bench, but she is not in the box. Fact: She still owes 10 seconds of penalty box time. Fact: I did not tell her she could leave. The Head referee, seeing all these facts as they stand, is observing the penalty, and so can make that call.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Major Wood on February 26, 2009, 11:35:51 pm
The problem is that an NSO shouldn't be making a call regarding penalties. And a referee can only make calls on penalties they SEE. And this is one situation where it's almost always the NSO that sees it.

That's what I thought the situation was. Thank you for clarifying.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Darkjester on February 27, 2009, 03:26:41 am
At Sunshine Skate we had a "Ref" (not on skates and out of zebra stripes) as well monitoring the Penalty Box. He/She was the one telling skaters who crossed the 'ponr' to skate another lap. If they refused he flagged a Outside Pack Ref, same as if they left early, entered in front of the pack, etc.,

All the Penalty Box Timers said was "You have 10 seconds, stand.. Go".

Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: the pantichrist on March 24, 2009, 03:44:59 pm
I saw a thread on this somewhere but I can't find it (maybe the WFTDA board, maybe here, maybe yahoo group, not sure)....

PONR line- What happens when a skater passes the line on her way to the box?

Is it a Minor for skating in the wrong direction but she can still sit and time will begin?

Is it no penalty but the skater can't approach from the wrong direction so her time won't start until she makes the lap?

Or something else?

Relevant rules section-

6.4.2 When a skater is sent to the penalty box, she must immediately exit the track and
         skate to the penalty box in the counter-clockwise direction. 
                6.4.2.1 Additional penalties will be assessed if she cuts the track or approaches the
                 penalty box from the wrong direction.


Background- we've had our penalty box in the center until this season.  We're still working out some of the kinks of having the box on the outside.

thank you!

Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Ref Neck on March 24, 2009, 04:33:55 pm
A minor is like 15 seconds in the box (4 minors = 1 major = 1 minute) and it takes about that amount of time (or less really) to skate around the entire outside of the track. I have always tried to encourage skaters to continue in the appropriate direction whenever possible, if not, give an IP minor. Some have said to have the penalty box managers to actually wave off the skater if they have not approached the box from the correct direction, but I think the rules are at odds with this practice since you are told to give "additional penalties".
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: ttjustice on March 24, 2009, 04:54:49 pm
If we see a skater miss the pass line we will tell her to get out of the box and skate around the track and come back in.  We actually use a separate pass line for each box.  Here is how we set it up.

In our venue we can put the penalty box in the middle of the front straight, between the team benches.  We put the jammer chairs next to the line seperating the boxes (easier for us to see) and we tape "on deck" boxes on the 'midline' as well so that neither team has a distance advantage re-entering thetrack.  The passline for the first box is the 'midline', the second is the outside line of the second box.

                l  BB     J  l J   BB      l
                l              l               l
                l          l-----l            l
                l          l    l   l            l                            <----- direction of skaters approaching the box
                -----------------------
                l              l
                l              l

Sorry for the crappy drawing but I hope it illustrates what I described above ok.

I haven't yet had a skater not get up and go skate another lap and re-enter correctly.  I seem to recall hearing one time at a  ref- captains meeting in the past that it would be called a major if they refused to cooperate so the skaters had better be paying attention.  I can't say how often that is discussed at the meetings- should it be a standard item?

Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Riff Reff on March 24, 2009, 05:10:20 pm
Quote
but I think the rules are at odds with this practice since you are told to give "additional penalties".
I totally agree with that.
We had that topic already here  (http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=167.msg3057#msg3057)and I still think it would be like telling a skater who committed a false start to get back behind the starting line
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: the pantichrist on March 24, 2009, 05:21:32 pm
Quote
but I think the rules are at odds with this practice since you are told to give "additional penalties".
I totally agree with that.
We had that topic already here  (http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=167.msg3057#msg3057)and I still think it would be like telling a skater who committed a false start to get back behind the starting line

Dang, how did I miss this?!  I promise that I looked for this thread.  I knew there was a good discussion on this topic.  Sorry for doubling up guys.  Blah...
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Stegoscorus on March 24, 2009, 06:03:18 pm
Huh...we always just wave them past and make them come in from the appropriate direction.  I suppose we'd assess a minor IP if they refused and just sat down after passing the line, but Ref Neck makes a good point: it doesn't say to make them do it better, it says to assess penalties.  I'll have to bring this up to my superiors...

For the record, we also use two Point of No Return lines, one for each team's section of the box.  Alternately, some leagues are starting to use a diagonal line.  Talk to Philly and Madison if you're curious about that. 


(P.S. - 4 minors = 1 minute in the box, but 4 minors do not = 1 major!  Get out of here and hang out with the One-Pass old timers ;))
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: DayGlo Divine on March 24, 2009, 06:25:18 pm
(P.S. - 4 minors = 1 minute in the box, but 4 minors do not = 1 major!  Get out of here and hang out with the One-Pass old timers ;))

Beat me to it. :D
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Johnny Zebra on March 24, 2009, 06:32:08 pm
Huh...we always just wave them past and make them come in from the appropriate direction.  I suppose we'd assess a minor IP if they refused and just sat down after passing the line, but Ref Neck makes a good point: it doesn't say to make them do it better, it says to assess penalties. 

FYI - the thread referenced above makes note of the Best Practices document for Penalty Timers, which states that the PT should not start timing if the skater has entered from the wrong direction. So, pick your flavor.

FYI about the FYI: I've merged these threads, so now all of our PoNR goodness is in one spot.

~j.z.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: the pantichrist on March 25, 2009, 05:09:30 am
What are common practices concerning leaving the penalty box? 

I'm not asking about 6.4.4 After serving one minute in the penalty box, a penalized skater may re-enter the track.
She must enter the pack from the back.  I'm asking about the approach to the track from the penalty box.

We have the box on the side between the benches, in the straight away between turns 4 and 1.  We used to have the box in the center and we had an exit lane leaving the box to the track. 

When leaving the box can skaters use the ref lane for a time before re-entering the track?  I wanted to use the PoNR line in a similar way as the exit lane we used for the box when we kept the box in the center.

We had a visiting skater from Chicago with us tonight at practice.  I was explaining the PoNR line to the skaters and she agreed with the pass-the-line-do-the-lap policy and she said that's the way she's seen it done any place she's played but upon re-entry they sometimes skate for a good distance in the ref lane and are okay as long as they enter the pack from the back.

This makes more sense to me because that way they wouldn't be trying to enter the track from a dead or almost dead stop.

Is this common and if so how long can they skate in the ref lane before they're violating- 6.2.9 SKATING OUT-OF-BOUNDS Skaters must remain in-bounds. No part of the skater's skate(s) may touch the ground outside the track boundary.?  Or does 6.2.9 even come into play since they haven't yet established any kind of in-bounds position?

Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Johnny Zebra on March 25, 2009, 02:55:14 pm
What are common practices concerning leaving the penalty box? 

 . . .

When leaving the box can skaters use the ref lane for a time before re-entering the track?  I wanted to use the PoNR line in a similar was as the exit lane we used for the box when we kept the box in the center.

 . . .

Is this common and if so how long can they skate in the ref lane before they're violating- 6.2.9 SKATING OUT-OF-BOUNDS Skaters must remain in-bounds. No part of the skater's skate(s) may touch the ground outside the track boundary.?  Or does 6.2.9 even come into play since they haven't yet established any kind of in-bounds position?



Some good discussion of this by Hunter Stompson here:

http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=148.msg3160#msg3160 (and forward)

Short take: they need to exit directly from the penalty box. They can wait at the penalty box, but they cannot skate.

~j.z.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: the pantichrist on March 26, 2009, 05:41:15 am

Some good discussion of this by Hunter Stompson here:

http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=148.msg3160#msg3160 (and forward)

Short take: they need to exit directly from the penalty box. They can wait at the penalty box, but they cannot skate.

~j.z.

Okay, cool.  Stompson seems to know what he's talking about and that falls in line with my original inclination.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Catch22 on April 25, 2009, 04:09:05 am
Hey ya!

Can anyone tell me where I can find the penalty awarded for entering the penalty box from the wrong direction (clock-wise)?
I'm aware that there needs to be one handed down as per:

6.4.2.1 Additional penalties will be assessed if she cuts the track or approaches the
penalty box from the wrong direction.

I have searched through the rules to find out if that penalty should be a major or minor but I have not found it thus far..
Anyone care to point me in the right way?

Many thanks!
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Major Wood on April 25, 2009, 04:16:37 am
If you give a penalty for this, it would be an illegal procedure. An illegal procedure is an illegal action that does not directly affect another skater.
Many leagues simply have their box timers refuse to time the penalty until the skater does another lap and re-enters properly.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Darkjester on April 25, 2009, 04:19:21 am
Probably Illegal Procedure. As she's gaining a advantage from an illegal act.

As to minor vs. Major, most of the time the Penalty Box operator will make her turn around and enter the box from the right direction I'd side with just a minor.

Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Catch22 on April 25, 2009, 05:14:55 am
Thank you!

I figured that it would be an IP but since it wasn't listed under IP penalties, I wondered if I had missed it and it was written somewhere else.

Thanks for your help!
Catch
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Conan on April 25, 2009, 10:23:32 am
This is a good question.  I just had a discussion with Hannah about this.  Here's an excerpt

Conan: I don't like this idea of making the skaters do another lap if they come to the PB in a clockwise direction.
Hannah: Why not?  Lots of leagues do that.  Most leagues do that.
Conan: I don't see where it's provided in the rules to make up a punishment like that.  You might as well make them do 10 pushups.  It's completely arbitrary.
Hannah: You're being ridiculous.  How do you think it should be done?
Conan: IP major.  Easy.
Hannah: Major? That's pretty harsh.  I could see it as a minor, but who's calling that foul?
Conan: Have the PB guy do it.
talking over each other Hannah: but the PB guy can't call fouls
Conan: shit but that guy can't call a foul
pause
Conan: I love roller derby
Hannah: Me too
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Ref Neck on April 25, 2009, 11:17:11 am
Why major? It takes less than 15 seconds to do a lap around the track which is what a minor equates out to once you get four of them.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Miss Trie on April 25, 2009, 03:07:25 pm
It takes less than 15 seconds to do a lap around the track which is what a minor equates out to once you get four of them.

That is why Dixie makes skaters that pass the point of no return/skate clockwise to the box do another lap before they can sit. We only issue penalties for it in the case of a skater refusing to take another lap. In that rare circumstance,  PB timer tells an outside pack ref that skater XXX didn't take another lap and the OP ref gives her a major illegal procedure, tells the PB timer to time her for 2 minutes & passes the penalty off to an outside penalty tracker.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Johnny Zebra on April 25, 2009, 03:32:06 pm
Hey ya!

Can anyone tell me where I can find the penalty awarded for entering the penalty box from the wrong direction (clock-wise)?
I'm aware that there needs to be one handed down as per:

6.4.2.1 Additional penalties will be assessed if she cuts the track or approaches the
penalty box from the wrong direction.

I have searched through the rules to find out if that penalty should be a major or minor but I have not found it thus far..
Anyone care to point me in the right way?

Many thanks!

Hey all -- topic merged to an earlier one that extensively discusses this. See Treble's post that kicks this (now) merged thread off.

~j.z.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Conan on April 25, 2009, 07:41:08 pm
Why major? It takes less than 15 seconds to do a lap around the track which is what a minor equates out to once you get four of them.
This was a comment that I made within the framework of a discussion that I was having with one of my refs.  We banter back and forth like this quite a bit off the track.  Engaging in hypothetical discussion in the hopes of finding Reasonable solutions that jive with the rules. As you can see from the excerpt of the discussion, the comment I made about it being grounds for a major went no where. 

I'd be surprised if lots of refs didn't engage in this kind of talk. 
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: noidd on April 26, 2009, 12:49:22 pm
Why major? It takes less than 15 seconds to do a lap around the track which is what a minor equates out to once you get four of them.

We call a major and it is covered in our captains meetings.

My thoughts on it are this:

Assuming 15s is a fair time for a lap... there is the potential for that effect to be almost doubled.  (pack sync).

15-30s of a team being a skater short is an eternity in derby and potentially has a major effect.  Especially if that skater is the jammer.

I personally am not a huge fan of NSOs telling them to skate around again as I consider that coaching.  You are in effect instructing the skater as to how to avoid a penalty.

That however is the head-ref's call, not mine and is my first question when I work the box.

By the time I'm ready to head-ref we'll be judging penalties for coming into the penalty box vertically on jet-boots.

Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Riff Reff on May 08, 2009, 09:53:22 pm
I am bringing this up again, to get some opinions/best practice. How do you handle a skater entering the box from the wrong direction:

a) start timing her. give her an IP minor on top. (only if a ref sees it)
b) start timing her. give her an IP minor on top. (if no ref sees it have the NSO report it to the head ref)
c) advise you NSOs not to time her penalty until she skates around the track and arrives from the right direction
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Jonathan Lee on May 09, 2009, 01:27:11 am
d) start timing her. give her an IP minor on top. (If either a ref or an NSO sees it. NSO can report it to any ref to have it reported to the penalty trackers)

Never c. Doing so would be making up a rule.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Stegoscorus on May 09, 2009, 08:15:35 am
d) start timing her. give her an IP minor on top. (If either a ref or an NSO sees it. NSO can report it to any ref to have it reported to the penalty trackers)

Never c. Doing so would be making up a rule.

Depends on which rule set you are using.  3.1 says:
6.4.2.1 Additional penalties will be assessed if she cuts the track or approaches the penalty box from the wrong direction. 


While 4.0 says:

7.3.2.1 Penalty timing will not begin until the penalized player legally enters the penalty box from the appropriate counter-clockwise direction.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Riff Reff on May 09, 2009, 10:25:56 am
ahh thx Stego.. damn.. I just did not have the time to REALLY look into 4.0...
so it leaves us no choice then (no choice is good because it's clear)
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Jonathan Lee on May 09, 2009, 06:46:05 pm
Thanks for pointing that out Stego.
That's good to point out the 4.0 rules while these last few 3.1 discussions happen.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: noidd on May 11, 2009, 03:06:15 am
Never c. Doing so would be making up a rule.

Not that it matters anymore but I always read option c) as being correct in 3.1.  However, every league I ever saw or ref I spoke to called it the other way (although I had seen a discrepency between major and minor calls on the IP).

I for one welcome that specific change to 4.0.  I think it is the most natural and fair way to enforce correct entry into the box.

Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: lets get it Shawn on May 11, 2009, 04:24:45 pm
Ok, correct me if I am wrong!          And, let me apologies for the lengthiness of the post.

Looking through the rules, when do we give skaters penalties for skating clockwise while out of bounds?  I was always under the impression that it is legal to skate clockwise while out of bounds. Subsequently, if skating in a clockwise motion to get back on the track after being hit out of bounds to avoid a cutting the track penalty is legal. Then we must look at 6.4.2 literally “When a skater is sent to the penalty box, she must immediately exit the track and skate to the penalty box in the counter-clockwise direction” I see the part were she has to “approach or skate to” from a counter-clockwise direction but see nothing on if she passes the box. 
I ask the following questions:
Why do we make them do a lap of shame?
If the rules’ allow a skater to skate in a clockwise direction, while out of bounds, then why can’t the skater stand up after sliding past the penalty box? Then skate in a clockwise direction until they are on the right side of the penalty box and then re-enter it again from a counter-clockwise direction?”

If the skater is skating in a counter-clockwise direction when she enters the penalty box then slides past the point of no return (implemented by whom?) has she not already followed the guidelines in 6.4.2. IE She exited the track immediately! She approached the penalty box in a counter-clockwise direction! She entered the penalty box in a counter-clockwise direction! In addition, since the rules do not say anything about sliding past the penalty box the skater did everything by these guidelines.  If she passes the penalty box, I do not see any reason why the skater should have to do an extra lap or even get a penalty.  I myself have always been against the extra lap..

6.2.6 Skating Clockwise to Block is discussing Blocking
6.2.8 Illegal Procedures says nothing about skating clockwise

I looked all through the rules and cannot find any reason they cannot do this. The only reason I have ever enforced the lap of shame is that it has always been the house rule, ever where I have refereed.  However, could never find anything in the rules to support or connote it. Even looking back through all the rule sets there has never been any mention of sliding past the penalty box the skater must do an extra lap. However, can find “approaches or skates to” in almost all of the rule sets but 1.0

Version 1.0
6.3.1 Major penalty enforcement - Skaters who are assessed a major penalty must
immediately leave the rink for a total of one minute and her team must play one
player short until the penalty time has expired.

Version 2.1/Version 2.1.1
6.5.2 When a skater is sent to the penalty box, she must immediately exit the
track and skate to the penalty box in the counter-clockwise direction.
6.5.2.1 Additional penalties will be assessed if she cuts the track or
approaches the penalty box from the wrong direction.

Version 3.0
6.4.2 When a skater is sent to the penalty box, she must immediately exit the
track and skate to the penalty box in the counter-clockwise direction.
6.4.2.1 Additional penalties will be assessed if she cuts the track or
approaches the penalty box from the wrong direction.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Darkjester on May 11, 2009, 04:50:17 pm
You are correct in that "Point of No Return" is nowhere listed in the rules, however I believe that its intimated due to the "Must skate counter-clockwise" to enter the box. If you've passed the box, and then you turn around and skate BACK to the box against the flow of derby traffic, you are skating clockwise to the box.

I think the Point of No Return is just a creation which plenty of leagues have come up with to prevent a safety issue of players skating in the 'wrong' direction back to the box and colliding with skaters entering the box correctly. The so called "Lap of Shame" isn't so much to punish a skater for either committing the penalty, OR for missing the correct entrance or coming in the wrong direction, as it is to prevent unnecessary outside of play collisions. In play collisions are part of the sport, out of play collisions are accidents that can be prevented or mitigated.

We used at our last home bout a month ago, a 'entrance/exit' zone.  Since we had dual penalty boxes on the inside of the track, we made an entrance and exit line for each team. The Entrance line was 'diagonal' at the turn 2, and 4, and the 'exit' line was perpendicular to the track at 1, 3.  This way it was the same for each team, the teams could not 'sprint' out of the box, but could step right into play, or 'roll' to the line and step in without crossing the line.   At the period ends, the boxes were swapped so no team had a unfair box advantage.

Was it 100% by the WFTDA rules? No. However it was minor decisions that did not adversely affect game play, and made penalty box ingress/egress a bit safer for all involved.

Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: lets get it Shawn on May 11, 2009, 05:01:33 pm
I agree with you 100% Dark I believe it always had to do with safety for Referees and skaters alike. 

Announcer "and there goes the skater out of bounds O look she is hip whiping the referee way to go ref"

And, I love your penalty layout. If I am imagining it write. 
Similar to Nascar pit row entrance and exit?

I will have to try and implement this at the next bout I am at.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Stegoscorus on May 11, 2009, 05:13:02 pm
I agree with you 100% Dark I believe it always had to do with safety for Referees and skaters alike. 

Announcer "and there goes the skater out of bounds O look she is hip whiping the referee way to go ref"


P.S. - Skaters should not be touching referees in this manner at all.  Some bumping into is to be expected, but this kind of thing should result in a Major IP.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Jonathan Lee on May 11, 2009, 05:32:01 pm
The "point of no return" is really just the border of the penalty box. It shouldn't be an extra, special line.

If you've passed the box, and then you turn around and skate BACK to the box against the flow of derby traffic, you are skating clockwise to the box.

Yes, but I'd say it this way just so it matches with the rules wording:

If you've passed the box, and then you turn around and skate BACK to the box against the flow of derby traffic, you are approaching the penalty box from the wrong direction.

And this is a case where you need to be reasonable. If they have already approached the box from the correct direction and end up slightly past the border (for whatever reason - sliding, t-stopping) and it's only slightly past the box, there's no need to have them get a penalty or do an additional lap.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: lets get it Shawn on May 11, 2009, 05:59:25 pm
I agree with you 100% Dark I believe it always had to do with safety for Referees and skaters alike. 

Announcer "and there goes the skater out of bounds O look she is hip whiping the referee way to go ref"


P.S. - Skaters should not be touching referees in this manner at all.  Some bumping into is to be expected, but this kind of thing should result in a Major IP.

Haha yes it is a major :)
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Major Wood on May 11, 2009, 06:32:18 pm
Quote
At the period ends, the boxes were swapped so no team had a unfair box advantage.

I used to think this too. It simply isn't true. The team that has further to go to get to the PONR line in the first period is at a disadvantage.
In the first period, that team gets the advantage of more time to slow down before crossing the PONR line. The fact is though, that it is less likely that a team will have as many box trips in the first period as they will in the second. This is because of minors accumulating, and sometimes desperation toward the end of the game.
The only thing that I have found to be somewhat successful in minimizing any advantage? Have two lines, one for each team's box.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Darkjester on May 11, 2009, 08:41:06 pm
We do have actually 4 lines :-)

I'm sorry if the initial post wasn't clear. We have a VERY small gymnasium we play in, 200 people is the max that can fit in our bleachers and almost NO room at all on the outer edges for seating. So if you imagine a small rectangle shaped gym, we place each team beach against the East wall corner South and North, near a doorway so they can keep cooler.

In the middle of the track we have 2 benches back to back. One for each teams penalty box, and the whiteboard for Penalties at the north end.

The "Point of No Return, also serves as our "Entrance line" back to the track, which prevents skaters exiting the box from skating around in the inside of the track until a convenient place to enter.  The "Entrance" line, is diagonal ( going with the flow of corners 2 and 4) to give them a wide angle they can come in at. Anytime from the corner entrance ( which is approximately 15-20 ft Track wise from the ' Point of no return" opposing box) they can come in all the way up through the straight away until approximately where the PIvot start line is,( and opposite on the other side).  This gives them a VERY wide area to enter the penalty box from approximately 1/3 of the track for each team on separate sides.




Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: FlamingMo on July 05, 2010, 03:10:55 pm
I understand the Skating past the point of no return, but what if they are sliding in and only their skate goes over the line? Or they slide onto the chair and one skate slides over as their butt hits the seat? Is that another lap? What about if they are sliding in and one hand crosses the line on the floor?

How sticky exactly should the penalty box NSO be?

It recently happened to me at a bout (those exact situations) as I was managing the penalty box, and the opposite team's bench coach was standing right there watching the skaters come into the box, and complained to the head ref that we weren't being sticky enough with the line (I couldn't see the whole thing so I relied on that timer to see if they crossed or not), but I kinda felt the coach was being unreasonable with the line. I mean I get it was part of their strategy, but she was SUPER anal about it.

One poor jammer had to do 3 extra laps, because of the situation described above. And I was impartial, but man I felt bad for her.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: noidd on July 05, 2010, 03:27:59 pm
Well, the "line of no return" isn't specified in the rules but is a common convention.

If everyone agrees that it is a line by which judgements of legal entry are made then we are duty-bound to enforce it with the same vigor as any other line.

I've worked with leagues who believe that if any part of the skater or skate crosses the line then the skater retuning has entered from the wrong direction.

I've worked with a different league that did the opposite insomuch as if as long as a part of the skater was inside the box then she was inside for penaltybox entry reasons.

Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: Dave Brawlings on July 06, 2010, 06:42:56 am
The only official reference that I've seen to the point of no return line (and I haven't been around too long...) is in the 2009 Tournament Season Announcements.

They said, in part, "There will be a 'line of no return' beyond the last seat in the penalty box. If a player touches beyond this line on the way to the penalty box she must traverse all the way around the track and enter the penalty box legally."

As a non-WFTDA league NSO, I prefer the line to be not too close to the edge of the box, and particularly not an extension of the end of the box. There, it's just a trap for the blockers at the far end of the box, particularly when enforced as above -- "touches beyond the line." (requires going around)

About four feet past the box seems to me to be ideal; passing that line is a clear miss, and it's in accordance with the guidance above.
Title: Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
Post by: reflmao on July 06, 2010, 01:29:01 pm
Yeah...  We implemented the 2009 clarifications and this never felt right and fair either.   

For a while we had two point of no return lines, one for each half of the box.  This looks odd when using a single box but it's fair to both teams.  Since two separate boxes is a legal setup this is effectively treating that the same way.

However, we did have a complaint about that and so moved back to a single line.

So what we're doing is offering the home team initial choice of bench, and then allowing the away team the choice to swap benches at half time.  This is the process they used at ECE 2010.