Zebra Huddleâ„¢

Non-Skating Officials => Working with Referees => Topic started by: ShoNuff on May 30, 2011, 11:33:39 pm

Title: When is a skater standing?
Post by: ShoNuff on May 30, 2011, 11:33:39 pm
Given that there exists something other than sitting and standing when a skater is ordered to stand for the final ten seconds of their stay in the penalty box, can the contents of the discussions and practices that define these other possibilities be summed up in some useful set of standards that can be used by someone working in the penalty box to identify when they should repeat the order to stand and when a skater has satisfied the defintion of standing?
Title: Re: When is a skater standing?
Post by: mick hawkins on May 31, 2011, 12:01:44 am
There's standing and not standing.

This is standing:
(http://images.borders.com.au/images/bau/97817411/9781741109399/0/0/plain/audrey-hepburn-standing-journal.jpg)

Everything else isn't.

The rules say she MUST stand.
The skater needs to make her seat available.
The Referees and Penalty Box Manager need to be able to see that her seat is available.

It's not that difficult to grasp, really.
Title: Re: When is a skater standing?
Post by: J.D. Plowher on May 31, 2011, 04:08:04 am
I was under the impression that for those final 10 seconds the skater could be standing, but had to have one foot touching the chair? Have I been wrongly informed  :-[
Title: Re: When is a skater standing?
Post by: FNZebra on May 31, 2011, 04:15:59 am
Penalty boxen are not standardized yet, due to venue considerations. One very common practice is to have tape down to demarcate where the box is, to make identifying when people are in it legally or illegally.

When instructed to stand, a skater must stand. When the venue permits it, both of her skates must remain within the box area.

Edit: I also had never realized how much nicer the Huddle could be with a little more Audrey.
Title: Re: When is a skater standing?
Post by: The Gorram Reaver on May 31, 2011, 04:27:40 am
I was under the impression that for those final 10 seconds the skater could be standing, but had to have one foot touching the chair? Have I been wrongly informed  :-[


*Cigarette holder & tiara are optional, but skaters using a them may be subject to penalty if they come loose & become debris on the track or are used as a weapon to impale other skaters.
Title: Re: When is a skater standing?
Post by: SeerSin on May 31, 2011, 04:19:41 pm
We can't require skaters to remain in contact with the chair. There is no rule governing that. The penalty box is ideally marked off with tape or other obvious border. If it isn't marked we can't impress arbitrary rules on the skaters simply because we neglected to lay down tape.

A skater who is standing reasonably close to the seats in an unmarked penalty box is still in the box for all intents and purposes. It's pretty clear when a skater leaves the box instead of waiting out her time.

Standing is standing, sitting is sitting. Crouching 2 inches over the chair isn't standing. Her status must be clear to the officials. Clarity is an easier metric to work than setting a specific distance.

Title: Re: When is a skater standing?
Post by: J.D. Plowher on June 02, 2011, 04:23:57 am
I was under the impression that for those final 10 seconds the skater could be standing, but had to have one foot touching the chair? Have I been wrongly informed  :-[

  • She must be standing, which I define as standing fully erect (see Mick's picture*).
  • She must be still within the designated boundary limits of the penalty box.
  • What she is or isn't touching while she is there is up to her.  If your venue set up does not actually provide a visible demarcation for the penalty box area, requiring skaters to be in physical contact with the chair they have just vacated may be one way to ensure they remain "in the penalty box" before they are told their time is done.  However, be aware that such a policy may create problems with skaters arriving to take a vacant seat during the last 10 seconds of a skaters penalty; you're likely to be better off taping out a boundary if not specifically prohibited from doing so by venue management.

*Cigarette holder & tiara are optional, but skaters using a them may be subject to penalty if they come loose & become debris on the track or are used as a weapon to impale other skaters.


Thank you for the suggestion, and I will suggest it to the track set up crew for our next home bout.
Title: Re: When is a skater standing?
Post by: Stegoscorus on June 05, 2011, 10:11:02 pm
I say she's standing if I can tell she's not sitting.  Many skaters like to crouch a bit in order to take off more effectively; if you can tell she's out of her chair, I say that's fine. 

Seer is right that clarity is what counts. 
Title: Re: When is a skater standing?
Post by: ShoNuff on June 06, 2011, 05:26:52 am
In my limitted experience I've already encountered a few teams that quite obviously have adopted hovering as a standard strategy to attempt to conceal the end of their penalty from the opposing team.  And no one seems to have told them this isn't allowed.

So, I'm a penalty timer, I order a skater to stand and they move off the chair slightly but it's pretty clear to me that to someone who isn't standing right next to them they will probably still appear to be seated.  What do I do?

I can repeat the order to stand, but what if the simply ignore the request or look back at me in confusion because they believe they have already followed that instruction and the next thing they're expecting to hear is their dismissal from the box.

Do I have any options other than to let the referees know afterwards and hope it doesn't happen again when I will again have no option but to let them do it and let the referees know it is still happening?
Title: Re: When is a skater standing?
Post by: mick hawkins on June 06, 2011, 05:50:40 am
A very experienced certified Ref told me that if a skater refused to stand, he would stop timing her penalty and say something like "I can't continue to time your penalty until you stand"

Previous discussion here (http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=1696)
Title: Re: When is a skater standing?
Post by: kornable on June 06, 2011, 06:26:34 am
just wanted to add that as someone who does a lot of jam reffing, it's pretty essential (for scoring purposes) that i can spot quickly if my jammers opponents are standing so that i can tell if they are going to be re-entering soon.
Title: Re: When is a skater standing?
Post by: ShoNuff on June 20, 2011, 05:20:34 pm
I've bumped into the question of what is the justification for a timer to stop the time of a skater for not standing.  I don't have access to the previous discussion and was wondering if the essential argument is that without the ability to stop the time, the rule that a skater must stand cannot be enforced and the choice boils down to introduce a practice or eliminate a rule?

Title: Re: When is a skater standing?
Post by: Bishop on June 20, 2011, 05:46:34 pm
I've bumped into the question of what is the justification for a timer to stop the time of a skater for not standing.  I don't have access to the previous discussion and was wondering if the essential argument is that without the ability to stop the time, the rule that a skater must stand cannot be enforced and the choice boils down to introduce a practice or eliminate a rule?



While not explicitly stated anywhere, it is very clearly implied that a penalty box timer has the authority to stop timing a penalty for "various reasons" in the WFTDA Officiating Standardized Practices.

Issue:

Further Penalty Box Practices


Standard Practice:

- If not timing a penalty for any reason (skater is not sitting, skater entered the wrong direction), the timer should inform the skater.
Title: Re: When is a skater standing?
Post by: Darkjester on June 20, 2011, 09:27:57 pm
Its better (For the skater) than giving her an additional minute for leaving the Penalty box to soon no?