Zebra Huddle™

Older Rulesets => 5/26/2010 Rules => Rules Discussion 5/26/2010 => Topic started by: Tom Schaefges on June 06, 2011, 02:51:16 am

Title: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Tom Schaefges on June 06, 2011, 02:51:16 am
At a bout last night we had a jam in which all four blockers of the Blue team lined up behind the jammer line with their jammer. The Purple team, whose jammer was in the box, lined up at the Pivot line.

At the five second warning the Purple team, seeing the Blue team behind the jammer line, moved back and lined up right in front of the jammer line. I'd like to go step-by-step through what happened to check my understanding of the applicable rules. I'd appreciate guidance on how this situation should be called.

1. After the pack start whistle "No Pack" was called because even though the Purple and Blue blockers were standing just a few feet from each other, the Blue blockers behind the jammer line are considered way ahead of the Purple blockers.

2. Each one of the Blue blockers was given a false start minor.

Am I correct that at this point the Blue blockers must either remain stationary or skate clockwise and the Purple blockers must skate counter clockwise to reform the pack?

3. The Purple blockers start skating forward (CCW), but just as they reach the Pivot line they all reverse direction and return to the Jammer line. This should get one Purple blocker a Failure to Reform minor based on

[rule]
6.10.12  No pack: After a warning, a failure to immediately attempt  to reform a pack will result in a minor penalty. This penalty includes failure to reform a pack by returning to in bounds from out of bounds. One penalty will be applied to a single skater per team, if applicable, who seems most responsible or the Pivot (see Sections7.1.2 and 7.2.4).
[/rule]

Right?

4. On calling the Failure to Reform the Purple blockers start skating forward (CCW) again. They get to the Pivot line, stop, and kind of mill around not knowing what to do. Is this a sustained Failure to Reform? Does a Purple blocker get a major based on

[rule]
6.10.18 No pack: After a warning, a sustained failure to reform a pack will result in a major penalty. This penalty includes a sustained failure to reform a pack by returning to in bounds from out of bounds. One penalty will be applied to a single skater per team, if applicable, who seems most responsible or the Pivot (see Sections7.1.2 and 7.2.4).
[/rule]

5. A couple Purple blockers start skating backwards. Sustained Failure to Reform?

6. At this point some of the Blue blockers begin to skate forward (CCW). But since we have a No Pack situation, by moving forward the Blue blockers are now subject to Failure to Reform penalties, right? (I was told by the Blue captain later that they thought they could start skating because the Purple team had not taken advantage of their yield.)

It seems straightforward if both teams know what to do, but one of them doesn't, what a mess. I know we'll be seeing this type of start again. It nearly happened a second time in that bout except that one of the Blue blockers stood in front of the Jammer line. The three who were behind the jammer line got False Start penalties.

A side question: Can a blocker who is behind the jammer line at the jam start whistle legally skate forward before the pack, skating counter clockwise, reaches her? If she's considered to be in front of the Pivot line, is skating forward, in any circumstance, a Failure to Re-Enter penalty? If she joins the pack, is that an Illegal Return (6.10.14) even though she never left the pack in the first place?

Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: mick hawkins on June 06, 2011, 03:05:41 am
Am I correct that at this point the Blue blockers must either remain stationary or skate clockwise and the Purple blockers must skate counter clockwise to reform the pack?
yes...

I have an Official WFTDA Rules Committee answer for your question :

[rule]A blocker who is on the track in front of the pivot line, but behind the jammer line has false started and must yield to the pack by allowing it to catch up to or pass them before skating forwards.  The skater may chose to speed up their yield by skating clockwise to rejoin the back of the pack, but is not required to skate clockwise to complete the yield.  Failing to yield to the pack will result in a false start major penalty.  Officially.  There is no other penalty applied because they are either patiently waiting for the pack to catch and pass them (also satisfying the requirements for returning to play), or they have skated forward and received a major false start and should be signaled to the box.[/rule]


A side question: Can a blocker who is behind the jammer line at the jam start whistle legally skate forward before the pack, skating counter clockwise, reaches her? If she's considered to be in front of the Pivot line, is skating forward, in any circumstance, a Failure to Re-Enter penalty? If she joins the pack, is that an Illegal Return (6.10.14) even though she never left the pack in the first place?
Not legally... per the answer above
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Black Adder on June 06, 2011, 03:55:30 am
Must say that the question of can the skaters behind the jammer line skate forward if the other team has failed to take adjantage of their yeild is an interesting one....

Although it'd make a horrible mess of pack definition...


How long does it take until you consider a skater 'not taking advantage'  in a normal false start scenario???
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: mick hawkins on June 06, 2011, 03:58:58 am
Must say that the question of can the skaters behind the jammer line skate forward if the other team has failed to take adjantage of their yeild is an interesting one....

Although it'd make a horrible mess of pack definition...


How long does it take until you consider a skater 'not taking advantage'  in a normal false start scenario???

If the other team failed to take advantage of the yield, they'd be awarded failure to reform penalties... minor then major, then more majors.
I dare say it wouldn't take long at all for them to reform a pack - taking advantage of the yield.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Black Adder on June 06, 2011, 04:56:25 am

If the other team failed to take advantage of the yield, they'd be awarded failure to reform penalties... minor then major, then more majors.
I dare say it wouldn't take long at all for them to reform a pack - taking advantage of the yield.

True That !
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Entropy on June 06, 2011, 07:21:35 am
If I am reading this right, regardless of what the purple team do the blue team would need to remain stationary or risk a failure to reform minor or major?

What I am also curious about is the following, since the no pack situation was called while the skaters where standing still even going clockwise at a slow pace could meet the definition of "speeding up to re-enter the engagement zone". This could result in a sustained no pack situation.

Mind you, I can not see a huge advantage to doing this but as far as I can tell it does conform to the rules.

Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: mick hawkins on June 06, 2011, 07:28:30 am
If I am reading this right, regardless of what the purple team do the blue team would need to remain stationary or risk a failure to reform minor or major?
Not quite. If the blue team move forward they (each) get a false start IP major (in addition to upgrading the minor already awarded)

Quote
What I am also curious about is the following, since the no pack situation was called while the skaters where standing still even going clockwise at a slow pace could meet the definition of "speeding up to re-enter the engagement zone". This could result in a sustained no pack situation
There's no pack, so there's no EZ.
The blue team can stand still or, if they choose, skate clockwise to reform a pack - keeping in mind that if ahead, skaters can stand still to reform a pack. There's no requirement to skate clockwise.
The purple team must skate anti-clockwise to form a pack.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Entropy on June 06, 2011, 08:11:53 am
Not quite. If the blue team move forward they (each) get a false start IP major (in addition to the minor already awarded)

Sorry I should have been more specific, if the blue team move forward they get a minor, if they continue their CCW skating they get a major for failing to reform.

Quote
There's no pack, so there's no EZ.
The blue team can stand still or, if they choose, skate clockwise to reform a pack - keeping in mind that if ahead, skaters can stand still to reform a pack. There's no requirement to skate clockwise.
The purple team must skate anti-clockwise to form a pack.

Sorry my screw up here, I meant to, say that the purple team could to skate slowly in a CCW direction and still meet the requirements of attempting to reform the pack, however it would cause the no pack situation to be sustained for quite a while.

I should have proof read that statement before I posted, sorry.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: mick hawkins on June 06, 2011, 08:20:38 am
Not quite. If the blue team move forward they (each) get a false start IP major (in addition to the minor already awarded)

Sorry I should have been more specific, if the blue team move forward they get a minor, if they continue their CCW skating they get a major for failing to reform.

It's an IP major for false starting - not for failure to reform.

The penalty is explained in the post above...
I have an Official WFTDA Rules Committee answer for your question :

[rule]A blocker who is on the track in front of the pivot line, but behind the jammer line has false started and must yield to the pack by allowing it to catch up to or pass them before skating forwards.  The skater may chose to speed up their yield by skating clockwise to rejoin the back of the pack, but is not required to skate clockwise to complete the yield.  Failing to yield to the pack will result in a false start major penalty.  Officially.  There is no other penalty applied because they are either patiently waiting for the pack to catch and pass them (also satisfying the requirements for returning to play), or they have skated forward and received a major false start and should be signaled to the box.[/rule]

Quote
There's no pack, so there's no EZ.
The blue team can stand still or, if they choose, skate clockwise to reform a pack - keeping in mind that if ahead, skaters can stand still to reform a pack. There's no requirement to skate clockwise.
The purple team must skate anti-clockwise to form a pack.

Sorry my screw up here, I meant to, say that the purple team could to skate slowly in a CCW direction and still meet the requirements of attempting to reform the pack, however it would cause the no pack situation to be sustained for quite a while.

I should have proof read that statement before I posted, sorry.

I would not consider skating slowly to be immediately attempting to reform a pack.

While I dont want to get into the strategy too much, it would be in the Purple team's interest to stay ahead of the jammer and reform a pack quickly.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Darkjester on June 06, 2011, 05:38:16 pm
I'm still not 100% sure I agree with "No Pack" even though they are standing a few feet apart.

Consider it as an alternative if the false starting blockers were 1ft ahead of the pivot line at the beginning of the jam. Yes, they still get a False start minor, but there is also a pack.


Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Tom Schaefges on June 06, 2011, 06:19:33 pm
When there's one blocker behind the jammer line the other blockers from the team are between the pivot and jammer lines forming a pack with the opposition.

A person behind the jammer line is way ahead of the pivot line. It follows that if an entire team is behind the jammer line they are way ahead of the "other side" of the line. That's more than 10 feet, hence no pack even though the players from opposing teams may be just a few feet apart.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: FNZebra on June 06, 2011, 07:10:58 pm
I'm still not 100% sure I agree with "No Pack" even though they are standing a few feet apart.

Consider it as an alternative if the false starting blockers were 1ft ahead of the pivot line at the beginning of the jam. Yes, they still get a False start minor, but there is also a pack.

This scenario has come up in these parts before, about a month ago, when The Worst Play in Derby first reared its head.

Here are some relevant quotes for how to look at the situation, to allow what you already know about the rules to guide your calling:

I have an Official WFTDA Rules Committee answer for your question :

[rule]A blocker who is on the track in front of the pivot line, but behind the jammer line has false started and must yield to the pack by allowing it to catch up to or pass them before skating forwards.  The skater may chose to speed up their yield by skating clockwise to rejoin the back of the pack, but is not required to skate clockwise to complete the yield.  Failing to yield to the pack will result in a false start major penalty.  Officially.  There is no other penalty applied because they are either patiently waiting for the pack to catch and pass them (also satisfying the requirements for returning to play), or they have skated forward and received a major false start and should be signaled to the box.[/rule]

and

The clarifications/statements from Rules seems to indicate that even if Blockers lined up in front of the Jammer Line are within 10' of Blockers behind the Jammer Line, they are in fact not 10' in front of the false starting Blockers but really more like 100' behind them.  So the only way to form/reform a pack is for the skaters who did not false start to skate counter clockwise, and for the skaters who did false start to remain stationary or skate clockwise (if they so choose) until the non-false starting Blockers have overtaken the false starting Blockers, thus completing the process of the false starting Blockers yielding to those who started legally.

Yeah, it breaks the head a little.  But some times we have to stop thinking of the track as a continuous loop & assign it finite starting/ending points.

Reaver, myself, and many other WFTDA folks think of the track as being an ever-increasing spiral as the jam goes on. This has implications for false starting skaters and for forming (and reforming) the pack:

1) Per the clarification, skaters behind the Jammer line are actually very far ahead of the Pivot line. They are almost one full level up the spiral.
2) The pack cannot be formed across the Jammer line at the beginning of the jam, because of this spiral. You may think of the Jammer line as an invisible wall at the very start of the jam.

Also, remember to warn your NSO crew that they might see something like this, and the pack refs might call a false start on an entire team at once, rather than individually -- it'll help everyone keep focused on the rest of the start of jam shenanigans if this actually happens, and less time confirming that "Yes, I really meant false start on ALL of the Green Blockers". Please cover this in your officials pre-bout meeting.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Tom Schaefges on June 06, 2011, 07:13:57 pm
Also, remember to warn your NSO crew that they might see something like this, and the pack refs might call a false start on an entire team at once, rather than individually -- it'll help everyone keep focused on the rest of the start of jam shenanigans if this actually happens, and less time confirming that "Yes, I really meant false start on ALL of the Green Blockers". Please cover this in your officials pre-bout meeting.

I'm glad you mentioned this. Is there any standard way to call a penalty on an entire team at once? "Blue 10, 20, 30, and 40 False Start" ?
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: FNZebra on June 06, 2011, 07:31:24 pm
Also, remember to warn your NSO crew that they might see something like this, and the pack refs might call a false start on an entire team at once, rather than individually -- it'll help everyone keep focused on the rest of the start of jam shenanigans if this actually happens, and less time confirming that "Yes, I really meant false start on ALL of the Green Blockers". Please cover this in your officials pre-bout meeting.

I'm glad you mentioned this. Is there any standard way to call a penalty on an entire team at once? "Blue 10, 20, 30, and 40 False Start" ?

There is no official standard vocal cue. That's why it's important to cover it at the pre-bout meeting. And you may not have enough time to focus on other penalties if you are actually trying to gather all of the false-starting skaters' numbers.

I've heard variations of "All Green Blockers, False start" used in bouts and scrimmages before. The wrangler or tracker should be able to get the numbers in a moment (the really good ones already are on top of which Blockers already had three minors!), and if any of Green should skate forward, you'd be announcing their numbers anyway, as part of the upgraded major. ;-)

In this one particular instance, because those skaters all know they are false starting anyway, speaking as myself (a shitty ref), I think it's OK to break from the Standard Vocal Cues.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: StabbyMcDudebro on June 06, 2011, 08:09:09 pm

I dare say it wouldn't take long at all for them to reform a pack - taking advantage of the yield.

This is my first post but i want to make sure i have this part correct since this came up this weekend. (Lucky for me Reaver and Whistler where there to get us new refs through the scenario)

My point of clarification is that reforming a pack does not equal yielding advantage. When the first of the back group of blockers is within 10 feet of the group that lined up behind the jammer, a pack is defined, but they still have not yielded their advantage until they are even with, or passed by, the approaching blockers. If they start to move forward when the pack is defined, they are still subject to major false start penalties since they did not yield advantage per the WFDTA Rules committee statement.

Is this correct?
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Great Barrier Ref on June 06, 2011, 09:06:19 pm
My point of clarification is that reforming a pack does not equal yielding advantage. When the first of the back group of blockers is within 10 feet of the group that lined up behind the jammer, a pack is defined, but they still have not yielded their advantage until they are even with, or passed by, the approaching blockers. If they start to move forward when the pack is defined, they are still subject to major false start penalties since they did not yield advantage per the WFDTA Rules committee statement.

Is this correct?

Yep.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Tom Schaefges on June 06, 2011, 09:44:10 pm
I have an Official WFTDA Rules Committee answer for your question :

[rule]A blocker who is on the track in front of the pivot line, but behind the jammer line has false started and must yield to the pack by allowing it to catch up to or pass them before skating forwards.  The skater may chose to speed up their yield by skating clockwise to rejoin the back of the pack, but is not required to skate clockwise to complete the yield.  Failing to yield to the pack will result in a false start major penalty.  Officially.  There is no other penalty applied because they are either patiently waiting for the pack to catch and pass them (also satisfying the requirements for returning to play), or they have skated forward and received a major false start and should be signaled to the box.[/rule]

I hesitate to ask, but that answer appears to assume that there's at least one blocker from each team ahead of the jammer line to form a pack. If the blockers behind the jammer line move foreward (CCW) they're going to get called for a major penalty, but in the case we're talking about in which all blockers from one team are behind the jammer line and there's no pack, does it make sense to call it Failure to Reform instead of False Start for the stats?

And one more question: If the Blue jammer were to line up behind the Blue blockers who are all behind the jammer line if we look at the order from front to back we have (Blue Blockers) - Pivot Line - (Purple blockers) - Jammer line - (Blue jammer) no matter what the order appears on the track. So to become lead jammer, is it correct that the Blue jammer must skate past the Blue blockers, pass the Purple blockers, then pass the Blue blockers (again)? Using FNZebra's spiral concept,  she has to skate up the spiral and when she skates past the Blue blockers the first time she is not passing them because they actually are on the level above. So past <> passed.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Cliquework on June 06, 2011, 10:31:06 pm
I had a similar question. I believe this is the answer:

[rule]3.4.1.4During a no pack situation (per Section 4.1.2), the Jammer must pass all Blockers to become Lead Jammer.[/rule]

"In front" as far a track position goes essentially has no importance during no pack for lead jammer purposes. Should a pack reform before all are passed, then we have a foremost blocker, etc... position matters for lead purposes.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Tom Schaefges on June 06, 2011, 10:35:26 pm
Missed that, thanks!
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: FNZebra on June 06, 2011, 10:43:33 pm
I hesitate to ask, but that answer appears to assume that there's at least one blocker from each team ahead of the jammer line to form a pack. If the blockers behind the jammer line move foreward (CCW) they're going to get called for a major penalty, but in the case we're talking about in which all blockers from one team are behind the jammer line and there's no pack, does it make sense to call it Failure to Reform instead of False Start for the stats?

Don't overthink this one, just because it looks extra weird. You should call it exactly as if the false-starting team lined up at the apex of turns 1 & 2.

There is never a pack at the beginning of the jam. In this case, if the false starting team does remain stationary, then the pack would initially form somewhere near the middle of turn 4.

And one more question: If the Blue jammer were to line up behind the Blue blockers who are all behind the jammer line if we look at the order from front to back we have (Blue Blockers) - Pivot Line - (Purple blockers) - Jammer line - (Blue jammer) no matter what the order appears on the track. So to become lead jammer, is it correct that the Blue jammer must skate past the Blue blockers, pass the Purple blockers, then pass the Blue blockers (again)? Using FNZebra's spiral concept,  she has to skate up the spiral and when she skates past the Blue blockers the first time she is not passing them because they actually are on the level above. So past <> passed.

Let's not call the spiral theory mine. I can't take credit for it. ;)

Correct, in your new Blue v Purple scenario, the Blue Jammer must skate up the spiral and pass the rest of the Blue team "again" to earn lead.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Tom Schaefges on June 06, 2011, 10:49:54 pm
Correct, in your new Blue v Purple scenario, the Jammer must skate up the spiral and pass the rest of the team "again" to earn lead.

This seems to contradict Cliquework's comment. Am I reading it wrong? Sorry to belabor this, but I know I'll be seeing this arrangement again soon.

I had a similar question. I believe this is the answer:

[rule]3.4.1.4During a no pack situation (per Section 4.1.2), the Jammer must pass all Blockers to become Lead Jammer.[/rule]

"In front" as far a track position goes essentially has no importance during no pack for lead jammer purposes. Should a pack reform before all are passed, then we have a foremost blocker, etc... position matters for lead purposes.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: The Gorram Reaver on June 06, 2011, 11:23:04 pm
Correct, in your new Blue v Purple scenario, the Jammer must skate up the spiral and pass the rest of the team "again" to earn lead.

This seems to contradict Cliquework's comment. Am I reading it wrong? Sorry to belabor this, but I know I'll be seeing this arrangement again soon.

You're not reading it wrong; Cliquework is incorrect (sorry, Clique).

In any no pack situation, a Jammer must have legally passed all Blockers at some point to earn lead jammer status, but she must also be positioned in front of all Blockers on the track.  So, in the situation you're describing, it doesn't matter if the Blue Jammer has already passed the Blue Blockers, she is still behind them (because they're way out in front) and cannot earn Lead Jammer status until she is in front of them (has passed them again).
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Alonzo Barricades on June 07, 2011, 12:52:53 am
Do you consider that if the blue blocker don't skate backward (just staying where they are) they are attempting to reform a pack ?
They don't stop actively, because they are already stoped. Does it make a difrerence ?
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: mick hawkins on June 07, 2011, 01:13:56 am
Do you consider that if the blue blocker don't skate backward (just staying where they are) they are attempting to reform a pack ?
Yes... being stopped ahead of the others is an attempt to reform the pack. The rules never require skaters to skate clockwise.

Quote
They don't stop actively, because they are already stoped. Does it make a difrerence ?
No
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Hans Oferbach on June 07, 2011, 02:52:11 am
3.4.1........the lead jammer is the first jammer to pass the foremost in play blocker legally and in bounds....... [this being relevant if one of the team doesn't make it behind the jammer line in time, therefore allowing a pack to be called (once in proximity)]

but since all blockers in this situation are behind the jammer line and there is "no pack" we reference 3.4.1.4 - during a no pack situation the jammer must pass all blockers to become lead jammer.  ;D
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: The Gorram Reaver on June 07, 2011, 04:05:30 am
3.4.1........the lead jammer is the first jammer to pass the foremost in play blocker legally and in bounds....... [this being relevant if one of the team doesn't make it behind the jammer line in time, therefore allowing a pack to be called (once in proximity)]

but since all blockers in this situation are behind the jammer line and there is "no pack" we reference 3.4.1.4 - during a no pack situation the jammer must pass all blockers to become lead jammer.  ;D

Yes, however...  This specific question was asked on the WFTDA forums and the answer was...
In any no pack situation, a Jammer must have legally passed all Blockers at some point to earn lead jammer status, but she must also be positioned in front of all Blockers on the track.

I'm very sorry, because I hate having to say "You've got to trust me on this," but there is nothing published to which I can point you.  You will have to take my word that, in Sanctioned/Regulation play, we do not award Lead Jammer status until the Jammer is positioned in front of all Blockers on the track regardless of when she passed them, whether that means being in front of all Blockers who are within a forty foot area who are not currently forming a pack or whether it means being in front of Blockers who have chosen to line up as far forward as they can make themselves on the track.

Rule 3.4.1.4 is not meant to imply that Jammers need not be in front of all Blockers to gain Lead Jammer status, it is meant to imply that Blockers who are out of play because of a No Pack situation still need to be passed (in other words, 3.4.1.3 does not apply), and that other conditions still need to be met.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Darkjester on June 07, 2011, 05:01:18 am
Holy brain splode batman!

This simply makes the game waaaaaaay too complicated and technically not by anything that in and of itself is written in the rules. Remember when someone alluded to "If you have to piece together parts of rules/clarifications to make an argument, its probably not a good argument?"

I personally don't think of the derby track as a spiral, but I can see where some refs would; My reasoning for not thinking of it as a spiral is simplicity.  Yes, the blockers behind the jammer line are technically 'way ahead' of the pivot line. However, if they skate forward across the jammer line and do not impact the jammers, I wouldn't give them a false start Major (failing to yield advantage) as they didn't gain any advantage.

Likewise, I wouldn't consider it a "No Pack" If they remained within 10ft of the opposing blockers.

The Opposing blockers  don't have to 'stand still' or risk penalties. The rules still say there won't be any destruction of pack penalties if at the beginning of the jam 1 team skates off while the other remains behind.

6.10.2.1.2
At the start of a jam if one team skates forward and the opposing team remains stationary, upon a No Pack scenario the Jammer start whistle will blow and no penalties for illegally destroying the pack shall be enforced.

Sometimes I think we make things 'too' difficult.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Brother Grim on June 07, 2011, 05:32:32 am
For simplicity's sake here's how I view it.

Think of it as a straight line race. The Pivot line is the start. The Jammer line is the finish. Everyone lines up behind the "starting line", spread  backwards for reasons that really don't matter. Each time they pass the Jammer line a new race begins. If someone is near the "finish line" they must be in front of everyone because they're about to begin the next race.

We already count passes in increasing numbers, we talk about Lap Points indicating someone being further ahead than someone else, we have penalties for re-entering from in front or behind the pack, all of which point to the idea of people being in the same linear location. Like any long race, the derby track is designed for use of space. Imagine it like a mile long race, with the exception of Jammers who once they've overtaken everyone they stop, let the pack pass, and then go through again. If a pack skater were to sprint ahead or drop behind they would no longer be in that same place on that line as everyone else.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: mick hawkins on June 07, 2011, 06:24:39 am
Holy brain splode batman!

This simply makes the game waaaaaaay too complicated and technically not by anything that in and of itself is written in the rules. Remember when someone alluded to "If you have to piece together parts of rules/clarifications to make an argument, its probably not a good argument?"

I personally don't think of the derby track as a spiral, but I can see where some refs would; My reasoning for not thinking of it as a spiral is simplicity.  Yes, the blockers behind the jammer line are technically 'way ahead' of the pivot line. However, if they skate forward across the jammer line and do not impact the jammers, I wouldn't give them a false start Major (failing to yield advantage) as they didn't gain any advantage.

Likewise, I wouldn't consider it a "No Pack" If they remained within 10ft of the opposing blockers.

The Opposing blockers  don't have to 'stand still' or risk penalties. The rules still say there won't be any destruction of pack penalties if at the beginning of the jam 1 team skates off while the other remains behind.

6.10.2.1.2
At the start of a jam if one team skates forward and the opposing team remains stationary, upon a No Pack scenario the Jammer start whistle will blow and no penalties for illegally destroying the pack shall be enforced.

Sometimes I think we make things 'too' difficult.


We dont make things difficult - skaters (and entire teams) who line up somewhere they arent supposed to are the ones making things difficult.   ;)

I like the spiral.

It makes WAY more sense than considering a skater to be both infront of and behind someone at the same time.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: The Gorram Reaver on June 07, 2011, 08:39:23 am
Holy brain splode batman!

This simply makes the game waaaaaaay too complicated and technically not by anything that in and of itself is written in the rules. Remember when someone alluded to "If you have to piece together parts of rules/clarifications to make an argument, its probably not a good argument?"

I personally don't think of the derby track as a spiral, but I can see where some refs would; My reasoning for not thinking of it as a spiral is simplicity.  Yes, the blockers behind the jammer line are technically 'way ahead' of the pivot line. However, if they skate forward across the jammer line and do not impact the jammers, I wouldn't give them a false start Major (failing to yield advantage) as they didn't gain any advantage.

Likewise, I wouldn't consider it a "No Pack" If they remained within 10ft of the opposing blockers.

The Opposing blockers  don't have to 'stand still' or risk penalties. The rules still say there won't be any destruction of pack penalties if at the beginning of the jam 1 team skates off while the other remains behind.

6.10.2.1.2
At the start of a jam if one team skates forward and the opposing team remains stationary, upon a No Pack scenario the Jammer start whistle will blow and no penalties for illegally destroying the pack shall be enforced.

Sometimes I think we make things 'too' difficult.


You are certainly welcome to call the game however you choose.  But those of us who ref Regulation and Sanctioned games, or who ref for leagues that participate in Regulation and Sanctioned play, have an obligation to call the game the way it is called in Regulation and Sanctioned play.  Those who aspire to ref at that level of play will certainly want to know how the rules are applied at that level.  Those who aspire to ref at that level and choose to call the game any way they choose rather than in line with the interpretations used to establish consistency at that level will certainly receive feedback indicating that they need to change the way they are calling the game if they wish to continue officiating at that level.

And no, there really isn't anything pieced together about this.  A Jammer must be in front of all Blockers on the track to earn Lead Jammer status, even during a no pack situation.  The only way she can earn Lead Jammer status without being in front of all Blockers on the track is by there being a defined pack and by there being one or more Blockers out of play in front of that pack; she will earn Lead Jammer status as soon as she is in front of the players who are in the Engagement Zone.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Hans Oferbach on June 07, 2011, 08:50:07 am
i believe that's what i was eluding to, sorry if i wasn't clear enough...  :-[
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: FNZebra on June 07, 2011, 01:38:41 pm
Sometimes I think we make things 'too' difficult.

A pack cannot form across the Jammer line at the start -- that's really really the hardest thing in this scenario. Well, and maybe having to call  "no pack" when there appears to have been one formed across the Jammer line.

This one isn't really that difficult, honestly, once you have it broken down. And besides, it doesn't really matter so much how we want to call it, what matters is how the skaters want it called. ;)
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Cliquework on June 07, 2011, 04:19:19 pm
Quote
In any no pack situation, a Jammer must have legally passed all Blockers at some point to earn lead jammer status, but she must also be positioned in front of all Blockers on the track

While I agree with this in concept in general, I can find nothing that supports that in the rules. Originally I felt as you did, but "in front of all" or not doesn't appear to come into it. I'm not convinced yet. You are only quoting yourself there, and I'm not sure you should be. Not because you are wrong, but from where it came from.

Quote
I'm very sorry, because I hate having to say "You've got to trust me on this," but there is nothing published to which I can point you.  You will have to take my word that, in Sanctioned/Regulation play, we do not award Lead Jammer status until the Jammer is positioned in front of all Blockers on the track regardless of when she passed them, whether that means being in front of all Blockers who are within a forty foot area who are not currently forming a pack or whether it means being in front of Blockers who have chosen to line up as far forward as they can make themselves on the track.

Rule 3.4.1.4 is not meant to imply that Jammers need not be in front of all Blockers to gain Lead Jammer status, it is meant to imply that Blockers who are out of play because of a No Pack situation still need to be passed (in other words, 3.4.1.3 does not apply), and that other conditions still need to be met.

Can you not point to anything that confirms your reasoning? As you say, it isn't written anywhere. Nothing stating that the intent is for 3.4.1.4 not to apply here. This is a very new situation. Prior to this clarification (in front/behind), any no pack/lead jammer situation you could come up with would involve the jammer being in front of all of them when she passed all of them, so I don't feel it's analagous. This situation is too new to have a definitive answer like that stating that "this rule doesn't apply or wasn't the intent". Seems to me yet another of the many consequence of this clarification, to which I don't believe it was forseen. Just my belief there.

While I still feel the jammer would be lead, I suppose you could say the verdict is still out until clarified. I suggest deciding on how you interpret it and bring it up in the captains meeting if you feel it necessary.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: howie~swerve on June 07, 2011, 04:46:23 pm
Where circles begin
Is known only in drawing.
One crane parts the sky.

Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Cliquework on June 07, 2011, 04:49:51 pm
Well I'm at peace now.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: howie~swerve on June 07, 2011, 05:48:16 pm
yeah, I just figured that since this is basically an issue of metaphysics -- time for a little zen poetry.

It's possible we need advice from some serious mathematicians.  It's also possible that the WFTDA Rules Committee has been taken over by a cadre of hard-core Derridean deconstructionists who insist on the uniqueness of each iterative performance of the "lap".  In this way, the "jamline" must be consciously established as the originary epistemic break that structures our understanding of "before" and "after", and only subsequently appears naturalized as part of a continuum.


either way, this makes my head hurt as much as anything I've run across. :)

h~




Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Bishop on June 07, 2011, 06:59:41 pm
<slams fists on desk>

Deconstructionists be damned!

Also, I believe The Shoveler is on the Certification Committee not the Rules Committee. We have nothing to fear (yet).


I think we have to consider when the Jammer's initial pass has begun.  Since the Blockers behind the Jammer line are to be considered "ahead":

8.4.1 If a Jammer is lapped by the pack and is swallowed back into the pack before she has begun her initial pass, that time she spends in the pack will not be considered her initial pass. Her forward engagement of the pack on her subsequent pass will be considered her initial pass

While the term "pack" is used, I'm comfortable with applying the concept to a No Pack situation when one group is clearly ahead and the other group is clearly behind.  Because of that, Blue Jammer can't earn credit for passing them because she hasn't begun her initial pass through forward engagement of eligible skaters.

Also, there's precedent in the rules for a Jammer not scoring points for Blockers who chase her outside the EZ (8.3.1.2.1.1) even if she passes them "legally and in bounds" despite having technically started her next scoring pass (8.3.1.2.)

… And yes that's from the scoring section.  In the absence of explicit guidance I'm going to construct a ruling based on the rules I have and what makes sense in the context of the game.  The Jammer having to pass "all Blockers to become Lead Jammer" in a No Pack situation (3.4.1.4) is too simplistic and doesn't consider the context of the scenario.   
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: The Gorram Reaver on June 07, 2011, 09:33:33 pm
I think we have to consider when the Jammer's initial pass has begun.  Since the Blockers behind the Jammer line are to be considered "ahead":

8.4.1 If a Jammer is lapped by the pack and is swallowed back into the pack before she has begun her initial pass, that time she spends in the pack will not be considered her initial pass. Her forward engagement of the pack on her subsequent pass will be considered her initial pass

While the term "pack" is used, I'm comfortable with applying the concept to a No Pack situation when one group is clearly ahead and the other group is clearly behind.  Because of that, Blue Jammer can't earn credit for passing them because she hasn't begun her initial pass through forward engagement of eligible skaters.

Also, there's precedent in the rules for a Jammer not scoring points for Blockers who chase her outside the EZ (8.3.1.2.1.1) even if she passes them "legally and in bounds" despite having technically started her next scoring pass (8.3.1.2.)

… And yes that's from the scoring section.  In the absence of explicit guidance I'm going to construct a ruling based on the rules I have and what makes sense in the context of the game.  The Jammer having to pass "all Blockers to become Lead Jammer" in a No Pack situation (3.4.1.4) is too simplistic and doesn't consider the context of the scenario.   


I've asked for additional feedback on the WFTDA forum (i.e. it's been nearly two weeks & nobody has contradicted this interpretation, so does that mean the prior dissenting opinions are no longer dissenting?).

In addition to the portions of the rules cited above, my understanding is that 3.3.1.4, as a subset of 3.4.1, is not meant to override the need for a Jammer to be positioned in front of all Blockers to earn Lead Jammer status, only to specify that those skaters who are out of play due to a No Pack situation must still be passed legally & in bounds.

Tanks to Bishop for knowing/finding/posting which rules point to the foundational arguments.  My apologies for not tracking them down myself.  This is clearly an indication that I should be spending less time talking about rules on Zebra Huddle & more time doing all the officiating organizing/admin tasks that are taking up most of my brain right now.  Because if I take the time to get them done, I'll have more brain space for Zebra Huddle, right?

And no, I do not have a Zebra Huddle problem.  So you can all (Noah Tall, Em Power, anyone else) just shut it down right now.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Major Wood on June 07, 2011, 09:56:24 pm
I'm now on board with the spiral staircase theory. The behind the jammer line false start clarification is all we need to tidy this up.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Darkjester on June 07, 2011, 11:54:58 pm


You are certainly welcome to call the game however you choose.  But those of us who ref Regulation and Sanctioned games, or who ref for leagues that participate in Regulation and Sanctioned play, have an obligation to call the game the way it is called in Regulation and Sanctioned play.  Those who aspire to ref at that level of play will certainly want to know how the rules are applied at that level.  Those who aspire to ref at that level and choose to call the game any way they choose rather than in line with the interpretations used to establish consistency at that level will certainly receive feedback indicating that they need to change the way they are calling the game if they wish to continue officiating at that level.

And no, there really isn't anything pieced together about this.  A Jammer must be in front of all Blockers on the track to earn Lead Jammer status, even during a no pack situation.  The only way she can earn Lead Jammer status without being in front of all Blockers on the track is by there being a defined pack and by there being one or more Blockers out of play in front of that pack; she will earn Lead Jammer status as soon as she is in front of the players who are in the Engagement Zone.

You know I have mad love for you Reaver ( I mean who couldn't love a firefly reference?),

But my response was in regards to the "not being a pack" even though they are less than 10ft apart. Bringing in Sanctioned and Regulation play into it isn't an issue afaik WFTDA hasn't made any reference to the Spiral theory published, or stated that there isn't a pack that crosses the Jammer line.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Hans Oferbach on June 08, 2011, 12:00:26 am
so just to add to the head explosions, what is the story if the other team rushes back behind the jammer line before the whistle too? just false start minors for all, jammers released immediately, carry on?
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: The Gorram Reaver on June 08, 2011, 12:13:32 am
But my response was in regards to the "not being a pack" even though they are less than 10ft apart. Bringing in Sanctioned and Regulation play into it isn't an issue afaik WFTDA hasn't made any reference to the Spiral theory published, or stated that there isn't a pack that crosses the Jammer line.

Because of the clarification provided by WFTDA Rules Committee...
I have an Official WFTDA Rules Committee answer for your question :

[rule]A blocker who is on the track in front of the pivot line, but behind the jammer line has false started and must yield to the pack by allowing it to catch up to or pass them before skating forwards.  The skater may chose to speed up their yield by skating clockwise to rejoin the back of the pack, but is not required to skate clockwise to complete the yield.  Failing to yield to the pack will result in a false start major penalty.  Officially.  There is no other penalty applied because they are either patiently waiting for the pack to catch and pass them (also satisfying the requirements for returning to play), or they have skated forward and received a major false start and should be signaled to the box.[/rule]
...It is not possible to form a pack across the Jammer Line at the start of a jam.  Blockers who begin ahead of the Jammer Line are at the very back of the field of play, and Blockers who begin just behind the Jammer Line are at the very forward most edge of the field of play.  A pack cannot reform when the Blockers are not in proximity, and at the start of the jam Blockers who are on opposite sides of the Jammer Line are, by the instructions provided in Rules Comm's clarification above, not in proximity.

Don't like the spiral staircase description?  Find something else that makes more sense to you, like a glass wall, or a disruption in space/time that makes the actual width of the Jammer Line a million miles, or a teleportation beam that sucks skaters from one track to another as they cross the Jammer Line thereby completing each lap of the track.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: FNZebra on June 08, 2011, 12:34:37 am
so just to add to the head explosions, what is the story if the other team rushes back behind the jammer line before the whistle too? just false start minors for all, jammers released immediately, carry on?

Yes, if all of the other team manages to scramble behind the jammer line, then it's a False Start minor party, and every one who isn't a Jammer gets one. Jammers are released immediately, and there's an interesting sprint to hit the rear of the pack that is now everyone yielding to everyone else in the pack, so as to not get an upgraded Major.

Did you manage to follow all that? Good, because I've got bad news for you.

Things get uglier if not all of the second team makes it back there, because then there is a pack immediately at the first whistle now, it is far far far across the Pivot line, the Jammers are immediately released, and now you have to issue OOP warnings to the rest of the team (Blockers/Pivot) that didn't get False Start minors for being across the Jammer line. They will probably look very confused, and either start sprinting in the proper direction, or else much more likely, stay put and thus earn minors for entering the pack from the wrong direction, per:

[rule]6.10.15 A Blocker re-entering the pack from the front, having fallen behind the pack. A penalty must be applied to each offending Blocker (see Section 4.3.3 and Sections 8.3 and 8.4). [/rule]

So again, you are likely to be issuing penalties to most skaters on the track.

This thing I like to refer to as The Worst Play in Derby looks really really weird the first time you see it, and it will tax your entire officials crew trying to keep up with catching and calling all of the penalties and getting them recorded. However, with the knowledge in this thread (track is a spiral; pack can't form across the Jammer line, as it is the beginning of the entire spiral) and the existing rules, you'll do fine. Just make certain to prep for this one in your pre-bout officials' meeting, so everyone knows what they should be doing if it happens.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: FNZebra on June 08, 2011, 12:43:38 am
Also, presuming you are doing a 2-4 rotation half-lap skate & wait on the outside...

The OPR at turn 4 should pinch in to be looking at the Jammer line, directly opposite the Jam Ref, to help call penalties if this breaks outs. They are also useful there when the Blockers suddenly rush back to get in front of the Jammers at the five second warning -- you'll be able to call minors for being (accidently) over the line, and such.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Cliquework on June 08, 2011, 03:29:47 am
Things get uglier if not all of the second team makes it back there, because then there is a pack immediately at the first whistle now, it is far far far across the Pivot line, the Jammers are immediately released, and now you have to issue OOP warnings to the rest of the team (Blockers/Pivot) that didn't get False Start minors for being across the Jammer line. They will probably look very confused, and either start sprinting in the proper direction, or else much more likely, stay put and thus earn minors for entering the pack from the wrong direction, per:

[rule]6.10.15 A Blocker re-entering the pack from the front, having fallen behind the pack. A penalty must be applied to each offending Blocker (see Section 4.3.3 and Sections 8.3 and 8.4). [/rule]

It was discussed at Spring Roll (you were there!) that this would not be applicable and rejoining from either direction is acceptable. The blockers are not leaving from the opposite direction in which they left. They never left the pack. Granted, a ruling from THR isn't WFTDA Rules Comm, but it certainly is to the letter of the rule and falls in line with "taking a knee prior to jam start isn't pack destruction, as a pack never existed to begin with".
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Darkjester on June 08, 2011, 04:12:27 am
Thanks for the Major Mick, would you like to go into depth as to what you mean by:

You are ignoring WFTDA/FAQs and Misleading People?


The WFTDA FAQ's do not address "Is there a pack when 1 team is behind the Jammer Line (way ahead of Pivot line) and the other team is within 10ft ahead of the Jammer line.


I'm not ignoring the FAQ, however I'm not buying that in that instance the skaters being within 10ft of each other does not equal a pack.  The rules very clearly state what defines a pack. The largest group of skaters containing members of both teams, skating in Proximity (10ft).

If all 8 Blockers were behind the Jammer line at the start, they would ALL receive a False Start Minor (that part isn't in question), however they would still be a pack as well.

Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: mick hawkins on June 08, 2011, 05:10:13 am
DJ,

This official answer from the WFTDA rules Committee...

I have an Official WFTDA Rules Committee answer for your question :

[rule]A blocker who is on the track in front of the pivot line, but behind the jammer line has false started and must yield to the pack by allowing it to catch up to or pass them before skating forwards.  The skater may chose to speed up their yield by skating clockwise to rejoin the back of the pack, but is not required to skate clockwise to complete the yield.  Failing to yield to the pack will result in a false start major penalty.  Officially.  There is no other penalty applied because they are either patiently waiting for the pack to catch and pass them (also satisfying the requirements for returning to play), or they have skated forward and received a major false start and should be signaled to the box.[/rule]
Makes it clear that a blocker behind the jammer line is in front of the pack.
It states that she must "rejoin" the pack.
If she's in front of the pack, and must rejoin - she cannot be part of the pack.

It follows that an entire team behind the jammer line are all infront of the skaters who are between the jammer and pivot line... and also must remain stationary to rejoin/reform a pack.
There's no leap of faith there.

When you said
However, if they skate forward across the jammer line and do not impact the jammers, I wouldn't give them a false start Major (failing to yield advantage) as they didn't gain any advantage.

Likewise, I wouldn't consider it a "No Pack" If they remained within 10ft of the opposing blockers.

The Opposing blockers  don't have to 'stand still' or risk penalties. The rules still say there won't be any destruction of pack penalties if at the beginning of the jam 1 team skates off while the other remains behind.
... you appeared to be ignoring the Official answer.

Which, you know, is fine if that's what you want to do... but you're a longstanding valued forum member who a lot of people listen to.

That same discussion where SeerSin posted the answer also included this response to a question I asked...
Quote
It's very possible for a blocker who's immediately behind the jammer line at the start whistle to already be part of the pack.
Is this clarification requiring her to stand still while the rest of the pack moves away, become OOP, and then rejoin the pack from the front?

The clarification defines a skater behind the jammer line to be way in front. They cannot be bridged to the pack in the rear. They are way in front, not behind. 20+ AHEAD of the engagement zone. That should be all you need to figure out how to handle lead as well, both if they're still ahead, or once again return to the engagement zone before the jammer completes her initial pass.

I think, in this case the answer's pretty clear - has been discussed before - and saying something contrary can be very misleading to those less experienced than yourself.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: FNZebra on June 08, 2011, 05:25:58 am
Things get uglier if not all of the second team makes it back there, because then there is a pack immediately at the first whistle now, it is far far far across the Pivot line, the Jammers are immediately released, and now you have to issue OOP warnings to the rest of the team (Blockers/Pivot) that didn't get False Start minors for being across the Jammer line. They will probably look very confused, and either start sprinting in the proper direction, or else much more likely, stay put and thus earn minors for entering the pack from the wrong direction, per:

[rule]6.10.15 A Blocker re-entering the pack from the front, having fallen behind the pack. A penalty must be applied to each offending Blocker (see Section 4.3.3 and Sections 8.3 and 8.4). [/rule]

It was discussed at Spring Roll (you were there!) that this would not be applicable and rejoining from either direction is acceptable. The blockers are not leaving from the opposite direction in which they left. They never left the pack. Granted, a ruling from THR isn't WFTDA Rules Comm, but it certainly is to the letter of the rule and falls in line with "taking a knee prior to jam start isn't pack destruction, as a pack never existed to begin with".

As I recall, the discussion at Spring Roll was the scenario of all White behind the Jammer line, and then all Blue attempts to reform after the start whistle by skating clockwise. And you are correct, that decision is not binding, it was how they chose to handle that multi-day event. And there has been more discussion about The Worst Play in Derby since then, and in many places.

In the situation quoted above, there are members of both teams false starting behind the Jammer line, which does create a pack far far far ahead of the Pivot line immediately at the start whistle per that clarification, although they are all false starting (largest number, both teams, ahead of the Pivot line). Then, following the spiral theory (are you onboard with the spiral?), if all of White is behind that Jammer line, and a member or two of Blue is there, too, the the other members of Blue must skate in derby direction to legally rejoin that pack. Otherwise, because now there is actually a pack, 6.10.15 does apply.

Anyway, whether we agree on this or not, I'm looking forward to finally being a part of a crew with you this weekend. See you soon.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Black Adder on June 08, 2011, 07:12:10 am
Just want to say a big sorry for the headaches.
When I came up with this strategy idea I never thought a team would actually use it.

I just came up with it to get the definite answer about track positioning of a blocker behind the jammer line at the begining of the jam.

Not proud to have created what's being called "The Worst Play In Roller Derby"....  :-[
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Hans Oferbach on June 08, 2011, 07:17:04 am
 :D hahaha black adder! but just to clarify, if blockers (from both teams but not all) are positioned behind the jammer line at jam start, the 2 (for arguements sake) in front of the jammer line will be able to accept the OOP rejoining (lapped) penalties by falling back behind the jammer line (?) or they MUST skate the lap to rejoin?  ???
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Cliquework on June 08, 2011, 02:19:32 pm
Quote
As I recall, the discussion at Spring Roll was the scenario of all White behind the Jammer line, and then all Blue attempts to reform after the start whistle by skating clockwise. And you are correct, that decision is not binding, it was how they chose to handle that multi-day event. And there has been more discussion about The Worst Play in Derby since then, and in many places.

Anyway, whether we agree on this or not, I'm looking forward to finally being a part of a crew with you this weekend. See you soon.

A lot of permutations were discussed. Perhaps Joe could illuminate, but I do recall one if them being just that: a pack (members of both teams) behind the line - skaters outside of this could rejoin from either direction, as they did not leave the pack, so they were not rejoining illegally. That is only if a pack exists behind the jammer line/way ahead of the pivot line.

I am on board with the spiral theory. Evidenced elsewhere.

Looking forward to working with you too sir.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: howie~swerve on June 08, 2011, 03:03:19 pm
I do recall one if them being just that: a pack (members of both teams) behind the line - skaters outside of this could rejoin from either direction, as they did not leave the pack, so they were not rejoining illegally.

Yep, that's as I remember it too: it's as if the helix is activated for a blocker once she crosses the pivot line -- until then the track is a plane, not a helix.

And the rationale for not giving penalties was that the language in 6.10.14 penalizes rejoining a pack only after leaving it and lapping it.

That said, it was specific to Spring Roll, and pretty squarely inconsistent with the official guidance which gives us the helical-track approach, where "skat[ing] forward" in that situation results in "a major false start".

h~
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Bishop on June 08, 2011, 03:14:01 pm
Just want to say a big sorry for the headaches.
When I came up with this strategy idea I never thought a team would actually use it.

Right.  Well people would have thought of it anyway - and probably did think of it entirely independently of any post on ZH.  This scenario is what I was alluding to in this post:

What about during No Pack starts?  Also, is the out of position, false-starting Blocker expected to yield or re-form?  Or is she expected to skate clockwise in order to re-form and yield at the same time?

However, I wasn't going to spell the strategic implications for people.  I mean, I'm an official, why would I want to make my job more difficult?  Besides that, I knew how I was going to call it (see prevous post in this thread.)  While I'm comfortable with the reasoning behind my ruling, I'm not going to post it on a public forum to be eviscerated without good cause.  Now that more teams are using the strat, it makes sense to talk about it more.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Cliquework on June 08, 2011, 03:25:00 pm
Slight  derail....

Quote
And you are correct, that decision is not binding, it was how they chose to handle that multi-day event.

Quote
Granted, a ruling from THR isn't WFTDA Rules Comm, but....

I just wanted to point something out as an example of decisions a ref must make in the grey areas "on the fly" as it were. Tough decisions a Tournament Head Ref, or Refs in general, must make based on current understanding. Sometimes you just have to deal with stuff and make a decision. Make it, and as a THR spread it too the crews. From there, Crew Head Refs can bring up any pertinent info to the captains meeting. Not explaining strategy mind you, but only that which need be said. Reiterating the false start clarification. Then we have consistency and no surprises tourney wide.

Similar to the non-binding tournament clarifications of the '09  tournament cycle. Something to increase consistency:

[rule]2009 Tournament Season Announcements
September 22, 2009
It’s tournament season in the WFTDA again and the Rules Committee wanted to publish and publicize some of the tournament policies that relate to rules and game play.  These policies are in effect for the tournament season but are not necessarily binding rules beyond that.  We offer a special thanks to the Executive Director, the Board of Directors and the Tournament Head Referees for instigating these efforts to keep the five regional tournaments as consistent as possible.

-The home team is the team with the higher tournament seed.  The WFTDA Tournaments Committee will develop a tie break system in the eventuality that two teams with the same tournament seed face each other.

-The home team will wear dark and the visiting team will wear light.

-The home team will choose their bench.  The visiting team has the option to switch benches with the home team at halftime.

-The full team roster and penalty count will be displayed on an infield whiteboard; there will be no “3 minor white boards” aka “hot boards.”

-During an official review teams will only be charged a timeout if they specifically request one in addition to their official review.  “Winning” an official review does not grant the team another official review.  “Losing” an official review does not mean the team is charged a timeout.

-At the beginning of a jam, no pack situations will start the Jammers if they have not already been started.   Furthermore, failure to reform [a pack] penalties will apply.

-Skaters who do not stand in the penalty box after being instructed by the penalty box official will receive an Illegal Procedure minor penalty.

-Players are not permitted to leave the penalty box during a team timeout.  Captains may participate in an official review even if they are serving a penalty.  Captains may call timeouts and request official reviews from the penalty box.

-Penalty Box: The penalty box will be divided in half, one half for each team.  A team will sit in the penalty box opposite/farthest from their bench.  If the teams switch benches at halftime they will also switch sides of the penalty box.  Jammers’ seats will be in the middle of the penalty box seats.  There will be a “line of no return” beyond the last seat in the penalty box.  If a player touches beyond this line on the way to the penalty box she must traverse all the way around the track and enter the penalty box legally.  Skaters in the penalty box will remain in the penalty box during timeouts.  Only skaters serving penalties are allowed in penalty box area.

-Destroying the Pack: When both teams are not equally guilty of pack destruction, the penalty will be given to the team that deviates from the established pace of the pack.  Destroying the Pack is almost always a major penalty as the action removes all Blockers from play, thus causing  everyone lose relative position.

-Failure to Return to Play and/or Reform a Pack: When a player is out of play she must immediately return to play at the first legal opportunity.  Failure to do so will result in a minor penalty.  If the player takes 3 seconds or more to begin her efforts at returning to play, during which time “out of play” warnings will be given with the corresponding hand signal, a major penalty will be assessed.   This same policy of failure to reform will be extended to “No Pack” situations.  The penalty will go to a skater from each team that does not make an effort to reform the pack.  If a specific skater can not be determined, the team’s Pivot will be penalized.

[/rule]

Some of these are in the rules now.

Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: JoeXCore on June 08, 2011, 04:15:46 pm
A lot of permutations were discussed. Perhaps Joe could illuminate, but I do recall one if them being just that: a pack (members of both teams) behind the line - skaters outside of this could rejoin from either direction, as they did not leave the pack, so they were not rejoining illegally.

It did not then... and does not now make sense to me to penalize someone under

6.10.14 A Blocker re-entering the pack from behind, having lapped the pack. A penalty must be
applied to each offending Blocker (see Section 4.3.3).
6.10.15 A Blocker re-entering the pack from the front, having fallen behind the pack. A penalty
must be applied to each offending Blocker (see Section 4.3.3 and Sections 8.3 and 8.4).

...when they have neither fallen behind the pack nor lapped the pack.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Cliquework on June 08, 2011, 08:51:25 pm
Not to belabor the lead jammer discussion, but through messages and posts here I think I see where a breakdown is. Not to say one way is correct or not, as that's still up in the air to a degree:

Quote
In addition to the portions of the rules cited above, my understanding is that 3.3.1.4, as a subset of 3.4.1, is not meant to override the need for a Jammer to be positioned in front of all Blockers to earn Lead Jammer status, only to specify that those skaters who are out of play due to a No Pack situation must still be passed legally & in bounds.

[rule]3.4.1Lead Jammer is a strategic position established on the Jammers&apos; initial pass through the pack during each jam. The Lead Jammer is the first Jammer to pass the foremost in-play Blocker legally and in bounds, having already passed all other Blockers legally and in bounds.

3.4.1.4During a no pack situation (per Section 4.1.2), the Jammer must pass all Blockers to become Lead Jammer.[/rule]

I agree there's a heirarchy and one doesn't disregard the other. What we're differing on is the usage of "pass" here. Leaving out "foremost blocker" as it doesn't apply obviously, 3.4.1. requires all other blockers to be passed.

That's it.

In this situation all blockers have been legally passed once. So the difference here, whether we award lead or not, depends on the usage of "passed".

Passed as in this skaters hips moved in front of that skater? - Lead

Or passed as in "this skater is beyond all other skaters"? - Not lead until foremost blockers have been passed again.

It is understandable to interpret it either way. It's the english language after all. I can agree that the original intent may have been "beyond all", and I can agree with the obvious logic of "the jammer needs to be in front of all to become lead", but it was never an issue until this clarification. This hole can be poked.

Just pointing that line of reasoning out.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: JoeXCore on June 08, 2011, 08:56:03 pm
I personally understand the "spiral staircase" to mean that the jammer must not only have passed all opposing blockers but also be positioned in front of them (on the "staircase") to earn lead jammer.

I see this as similar to any time a jammer passes blockers before starting her lap, for example starting ahead of some of the blockers due to a false start.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: FNZebra on June 08, 2011, 09:08:23 pm
I personally understand the "spiral staircase" to mean that the jammer must not only have passed all opposing blockers but also be positioned in front of them (on the "staircase") to earn lead jammer.

/ me stands next to Joe, nodding my head.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Black Adder on June 08, 2011, 11:57:44 pm
New Jam Clock ??

(http://images2.cpcache.com/product/3148962v11_480x480_Front.jpg)

Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: The Gorram Reaver on June 09, 2011, 02:07:57 am
It is understandable to interpret it either way. It's the english language after all. I can agree that the original intent may have been "beyond all", and I can agree with the obvious logic of "the jammer needs to be in front of all to become lead", but it was never an issue until this clarification. This hole can be poked.

Except that it was an issue before (or regardless of) this clarification.

During a scrimmage, I was Jammer Reffing & my Jammer had been getting cycled through the pack pretty thoroughly.  At one point, a No Pack situation developed.  I immediately signaled her Lead Jammer, even though there were three Blockers in front of her, because she had already passed those Blockers.  I was informed by my local Level 5 official that this was an incorrect application of the rule.  The Jammer still needed to be in front of all Blockers to earn Lead Jammer.

This is the situation that prompted me to re-raise the issue of whether or not a Jammer in fact needs to be in front of all Blockers to earn Lead Jammer status in the discussion parallel to this one on the WFTDA forum.  So...  I guess we'll have to get more definitive clarification on this sort of situation as well....
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: mick hawkins on July 05, 2011, 07:33:26 am
Having experienced this recently, I'm now wondering about similar scenarios and how to handle them.
In particular, I'm trying to decide how to handle things an opposing team might do to counteract The Worst Play in Derby.

(I'd put this in "hypotheticals" but chances are it's not such a hypothetical.)

Say...

Blue team lines up behind the jammer line.
One red blocker joins the blue team behind the jammer line.
Rest of the Red team are between the pivot/jammer lines.

Jam starts.

considering the answer...
Quote
A blocker who is on the track in front of the pivot line, but behind the jammer line has false started and must yield to the pack by allowing it to catch up to or pass them before skating forwards.  The skater may chose to speed up their yield by skating clockwise to rejoin the back of the pack, but is not required to skate clockwise to complete the yield.  Failing to yield to the pack will result in a false start major penalty.  Officially.  There is no other penalty applied because they are either patiently waiting for the pack to catch and pass them (also satisfying the requirements for returning to play), or they have skated forward and received a major false start and should be signaled to the box.

1. can the pack (which is behind the jammer line) move forward and not risk the major penalty?
2. are the rest of the red team out of play (being behind the pack)?
3. assuming the pack can move forward, do we wait until they've crossed the pivot line to start the jammers (like normal)?

4. if the red team are OOP behind the pack, and the pack can move forward... if the pack catches up to the rest of the red team does 6.10.15 apply?[rule]6.10.15 A Blocker re-entering the pack from the front, having fallen behind the pack. A penalty must be applied to each offending Blocker[/rule]

I need a Bex and a good lie down.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Cliquework on July 05, 2011, 03:08:16 pm
1. False starting blockers must yield.
2. Yes
3. The pack is considered ahead of the pivot line.
4. See "1". At the same time OOP must rejoin. 6.10.15 shouldn't have a chance to apply.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Grim Griefer on July 05, 2011, 04:10:31 pm
4. if the red team are OOP behind the pack, and the pack can move forward... if the pack catches up to the rest of the red team does 6.10.15 apply?

Precision in word use is your undoing here. There is no pack. What you are looking at are groups of blockers, not packs. If there is no pack, then 6.10.15 cannot come in to effect. The blue team can skate forward to reform a pack, but they should be issued penalties if they do so before red team catches up to them for failure to yield after a false start.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: mick hawkins on July 06, 2011, 12:23:20 am
1. False starting blockers must yield.
2. Yes
3. The pack is considered ahead of the pivot line.
4. See "1". At the same time OOP must rejoin. 6.10.15 shouldn't have a chance to apply.

thanks CW

with 1... the clarification says false starting blockers must yield to the pack. In this case the false starting blockers are the pack. I'm guessing by your answer that doesn't matter... and the pack should yield to the non-false starting blockers? At what point have they yielded? When the non-false starting blockers have passed all of the pack?


with 3... "The pack is considered ahead of the pivot line."

I get that. What's confusing is that the rules say the jammers should start when...
[rule]4.4.2 Once the rearmost pack skater has crossed the Pivot line[/rule]
...ven though the pack is ahead of the pivot line, none of the pack has actually crossed the line.

I take it 4.4.2 doesn't apply here? And even though there's a pack we still start the jammers immediately?

Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: mick hawkins on July 06, 2011, 12:27:49 am
4. if the red team are OOP behind the pack, and the pack can move forward... if the pack catches up to the rest of the red team does 6.10.15 apply?

Precision in word use is your undoing here. There is no pack. What you are looking at are groups of blockers, not packs. If there is no pack, then 6.10.15 cannot come in to effect. The blue team can skate forward to reform a pack, but they should be issued penalties if they do so before red team catches up to them for failure to yield after a false start.

Considering the definition of a pack is...[rule]4.1.1 The pack is defined by the largest group of in bounds Blockers, skating in proximity, containing members from both teams.[/rule]

How is there no pack?
Can you explain?

After the jam starting whistle, we have a largest group of blockers, inbounds, in proximity with members of both teams.
I don't see how 4.1.1 doesn't apply just because theyve false started.





Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: HIM-roid on July 06, 2011, 12:32:00 am
1. False starting blockers must yield.
2. Yes
3. The pack is considered ahead of the pivot line.
4. See "1". At the same time OOP must rejoin. 6.10.15 shouldn't have a chance to apply.

thanks CW

with 1... the clarification says false starting blockers must yield to the pack. In this case the false starting blockers are the pack. I'm guessing by your answer that doesn't matter... and the pack should yield to the non-false starting blockers? At what point have they yielded? When the non-false starting blockers have passed all of the pack?


with 3... "The pack is considered ahead of the pivot line."

I get that. What's confusing is that the rules say the jammers should start when...
[rule]4.4.2 Once the rearmost pack skater has crossed the Pivot line[/rule]
...ven though the pack is ahead of the pivot line, none of the pack has actually crossed the line.

I take it 4.4.2 doesn't apply here? And even though there's a pack we still start the jammers immediately?


If the pack has false started, they have already crossed the pivot line. If they haven't, then there would not be a false start.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Grim Griefer on July 06, 2011, 01:19:43 am
How is there no pack?
Can you explain?
Yep. I mis-read your particular scenario. There is a pack.

All the false starting blockers must yield. Similar to if both jammers false start, both must yield (coming to a full stop) before they can continue in order to only get the IP minor.

The non-false starting blockers are free to skate in either direction to join the pack (as opposed to rejoining, in which case, via 6.10.15, it must be opposite the way they left), or they can actively wait for the pack to catch up to them. They have an obligation to join the engagement zone, but they don't have an obligation which way to do that. To me, once they had committed to either skating around to join from the back or staying put and waiting for the pack, switching to the other would indicate a failure to return to the engagement zone and OOP penalties.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: mick hawkins on July 06, 2011, 02:16:58 am
If the pack has false started, they have already crossed the pivot line. If they haven't, then there would not be a false start.

Perhaps we'll just have to agree to disagree.

They have not (literally) gone across the line.
They might be in front of it - but they havent crossed it.

Either way, if we're to overlook 4.4.2 (or consider it to not apply) and start the jammers immediately when there's a pack ahead of the pivot line... then I can live with that.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: mick hawkins on July 06, 2011, 02:20:13 am

The non-false starting blockers are free to skate in either direction to join the pack (as opposed to rejoining, in which case, via 6.10.15, it must be opposite the way they left), or they can actively wait for the pack to catch up to them.

I don't think that's correct at all.

the OOP blockers can't skate clockwise and rejoin the pack.
and they must skate forward to join the pack
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Grim Griefer on July 06, 2011, 02:47:01 am

The non-false starting blockers are free to skate in either direction to join the pack (as opposed to rejoining, in which case, via 6.10.15, it must be opposite the way they left), or they can actively wait for the pack to catch up to them.

I don't think that's correct at all.

the OOP blockers can't skate clockwise and rejoin the pack.
and they must skate forward to join the pack

There is an entire other discussion on here about skating clockwise. It's perfectly legal except for certain actions that cannot be performed while moving clockwise (6.9.3, DoGP).

Note that 6.10.14–15 speaks of re-entering the pack. At the start of the jam, the OOP blockers never left the pack because they were never in it. Thus, they haven't fallen behind or skated ahead of the pack, and the situations stated in those paragraphs don't apply.

I feel that this falls in line with the spirit of not issuing destruction of the pack penalties when a team starts the jam on a knee. There was no pack at the time the jam started. Here, the blockers in question were not part of the pack or in the engagement zone when the jam started.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: mick hawkins on July 06, 2011, 02:57:27 am

The non-false starting blockers are free to skate in either direction to join the pack (as opposed to rejoining, in which case, via 6.10.15, it must be opposite the way they left), or they can actively wait for the pack to catch up to them.

I don't think that's correct at all.

the OOP blockers can't skate clockwise and rejoin the pack.
and they must skate forward to join the pack

There is an entire other discussion on here about skating clockwise. It's perfectly legal except for certain actions that cannot be performed while moving clockwise (6.9.3, DoGP).

Note that 6.10.14–15 speaks of re-entering the pack. At the start of the jam, the OOP blockers never left the pack because they were never in it. Thus, they haven't fallen behind or skated ahead of the pack, and the situations stated in those paragraphs don't apply.

I feel that this falls in line with the spirit of not issuing destruction of the pack penalties when a team starts the jam on a knee. There was no pack at the time the jam started. Here, the blockers in question were not part of the pack or in the engagement zone when the jam started.

One of the times a blocker cant skate clockwise is to join the pack when she's behind the pack.
That's the situation we have have here.

That they weren't in the pack when the jam's started doesn't mean they can join the pack from either direction.

I think 6.10.15 still applies.... we dont need to get hung up on "re"-joining
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: HIM-roid on July 06, 2011, 03:02:58 am
If the blockers are behind the jammer line, they are in front of the pivot line which means they must either remain in place until the other blockers catch up to them or they can skate clockwise to rejoin the pack, however, they are not REQUIRED to skate clockwise. If they fail to do either of these, they have now false started IP Major.

If a blocker is not between the pivot and jammer lines (the 30 ft) then they are considered in front of the pivot line per Rules Clarification
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Grim Griefer on July 06, 2011, 03:17:14 am
One of the times a blocker cant skate clockwise is to join the pack when she's behind the pack.
That's the situation we have have here.

That they weren't in the pack when the jam's started doesn't mean they can join the pack from either direction.

I think 6.10.15 still applies.... we dont need to get hung up on "re"-joining

I'm going to quote 6.10.15 again:
Code: [Select]
6.10.15 A Blocker *re-entering* the pack from the front, *having fallen behind the pack*. A penalty must be applied to each offending Blocker (see Section 4.3.3 and Sections 8.3 and 8.4).
Emphasis mine. It explicitly states "re-joining", and I think it is in the spirit of other jam-start scenarios to apply it as written.

Code: [Select]
6.10.11 A skater who, after being warned, does not immediately attempt to re-enter the Engagement Zone. …

Note that the skating clockwise is not what is penalized in the situation you speak of, it's the failure to re-enter the pack legally. Illegal clockwise action is DoGP, illegal re-entry is OOP. Attempting to re-enter the pack, even illegally, prevents 6.10.11 OOP minors (which only requires an immediate attempt to re-enter, not an immediate attempt to re-enter legally).  Actually entering illegally triggers the 6.10.14–15 OOP minors.

For HIM-roid, the context here is slightly different: the false starting blockers actually constitute a pack at the jam start whistle. The remaining, non-false starting blockers are now OOP. Now, if you come back with the rules clarification stating that non-false-starting blockers must skate to catch up to a false-starting pack, then I'd go with that, but as the rules are written, and with the clarification not mentioning this "pack starting behind the jammer line", I'd be inclined to read as written.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: HIM-roid on July 06, 2011, 03:44:11 am
It doesn't matter where the pack is,they have false started and need to yield or rejoin the legal starting skaters and yes, all skaters must attempt to reform a legal pack. If they are skating CCW, they have or are attempting to reform a legal pack. This is starting to lean toward a STRATEGY issue which I won't discuss on an open forum. Numerous people have given you the answer every way known to mankind, if this isn't satisfying your question, I advise sending it to the Rules Committee and they will give you an official answer.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: FNZebra on July 06, 2011, 04:00:38 am
I'm going to quote 6.10.15 again:
Code: [Select]
6.10.15 A Blocker *re-entering* the pack from the front, *having fallen behind the pack*. A penalty must be applied to each offending Blocker (see Section 4.3.3 and Sections 8.3 and 8.4).
Emphasis mine. It explicitly states "re-joining", and I think it is in the spirit of other jam-start scenarios to apply it as written.

...

For HIM-roid, the context here is slightly different: the false starting blockers actually constitute a pack at the jam start whistle. The remaining, non-false starting blockers are now OOP. Now, if you come back with the rules clarification stating that non-false-starting blockers must skate to catch up to a false-starting pack, then I'd go with that, but as the rules are written, and with the clarification not mentioning this "pack starting behind the jammer line", I'd be inclined to read as written.

Grim, it says re-entering, and I think the proper emphasis should actually be on the "having fallen behind the pack" part.

Do keep in mind this particular part of the rules hasn't changed substantially since version 2.1 of the rules (a new reference was added, Pivot was dropped), while the gameplay certainly has. Here's that section from the rules v2.1:

Quote from: rules version 2.1
6.2.2.2.3 A blocker or pivot re-entering the pack from the front, having fallen behind the pack. A penalty should be applied to each offending blocker or pivot. (see Section 4.3.2 )

I'd like to think that whomever drafted that nugget back then would choose slightly different wording if they saw today's gameplay.

To answer Mick's original questions:

1. Yes, once they have yielded, may move forward. Is the pack.
2. Yes, OOP waaayy behind.
3. No, pack is already waaayy across the Pivot line, remember? Start the Jammers immediately, Red in front may not engage them! {also see reference to Prof Murder saying they broke roller derby}
4. Yes, Red in front would earn minors for re-entering the pack from the wrong direction. They have fallen behind by the pack starting waaayy across the Pivot line. I will agree to disagree with Slippery Cliquewerk yet again in a discussion regarding variations on the Worst Play in Derby. ;)
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Grim Griefer on July 06, 2011, 04:15:32 am
Grim, it says re-entering, and I think the proper emphasis should actually be on the "having fallen behind the pack" part.

Do keep in mind this particular part of the rules hasn't changed substantially since version 2.1 of the rules (a new reference was added, Pivot was dropped), while the gameplay certainly has. …

I'd like to think that whomever drafted that nugget back then would choose slightly different wording if they saw today's gameplay.

I can get behind that, especially with some historical context. While I don't explicitly disagree with the interpretation, I think that the rule may perhaps be better interpreted to reduce the advantage provided by the illegal action rather than possibly amplify it. As this leans into strategy, I will go no further in this forum.

To answer Mick's original questions:

1. Yes, once they have yielded, may move forward. Is the pack.
2. Yes, OOP waaayy behind.
3. No, pack is already waaayy across the Pivot line, remember? Start the Jammers immediately, Red in front may not engage them! {also see reference to Prof Murder saying they broke roller derby}
4. Yes, Red in front would earn minors for re-entering the pack from the wrong direction. They have fallen behind by the pack starting waaayy across the Pivot line. I will agree to disagree with Slippery Cliquewerk yet again in a discussion regarding variations on the Worst Play in Derby. ;)

Under the choice of the selected emphasis, I'd agree with this shakeout.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Cliquework on July 06, 2011, 02:07:09 pm
4. I'm not sure where I've disagreed here. I do remember posting what was called at a tournament when this was still new, but to stick with the clarification I agree that OOP blockers must skate forward. Pack (false starting blockers) must yield. My reference to 6.10.15 not applying was because OOP blockers behind must skate forward to rejoin the pack who is in front of them. Skating backwards would be failing to rejoin. Additionally, the pack could not skate forward without penalty.

Perhaps I should have said "wouldn't get much of a chance to apply".

To MIck's question of what constitutes yielding - The OOP blockers will (must) skate to rejoin the pack. The pack must yield. The OOP blockers have the right to be allowed to the front (take advantage of the yield). If that's what they choose, the yield is not complete until they get there. If, once the OOP blockers reach the pack, they decide to remain in the rear, they are not taking advantage of the yield and the pack can again move. Until then they must remain stationary.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: mick hawkins on July 07, 2011, 01:40:26 am

To MIck's question of what constitutes yielding - The OOP blockers will (must) skate to rejoin the pack. The pack must yield. The OOP blockers have the right to be allowed to the front (take advantage of the yield). If that's what they choose, the yield is not complete until they get there. If, once the OOP blockers reach the pack, they decide to remain in the rear, they are not taking advantage of the yield and the pack can again move. Until then they must remain stationary.

Thanks... That what I figured. Good to have it spelled out clearly.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: FNZebra on July 07, 2011, 01:50:16 am
To MIck's question of what constitutes yielding - The OOP blockers will (must) skate to rejoin the pack. The pack must yield. The OOP blockers have the right to be allowed to the front (take advantage of the yield). If that's what they choose, the yield is not complete until they get there. If, once the OOP blockers reach the pack, they decide to remain in the rear, they are not taking advantage of the yield and the pack can again move. Until then they must remain stationary.

Just some teasing on the disagreeing on this round, Clique. ;)

And to be more precise, the yielding skaters must remain stationary or, at their discretion, may choose to skate in the anti-derby direction. Any forward motion should be considered not yielding, and should earn an IP major for the false start.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Major Puddles on July 07, 2011, 03:48:58 am
I think I've followed this, but I was just hoping someone could provide clarification on when the Jammer whistle would go?

I understand the pack has false started and must yield.
I understand the remaining blockers are OOP and must skate forward to catch up to the pack.
I understand the pack can't do a damn thing before they get there, except for skating backwards, without getting penalised.

But are they considered to have "crossed" the pivot line? I know they are ruled to be in front of it, and for the point of releasing the jammers, is that the same thing? Otherwise, technically, wouldn't they be lapping the jammers if the pack has to continue forward once they have yielded to physically cross the line?

My brain hurts. I'm sorry if I sound dumb, but this makes my head swim.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: mick hawkins on July 07, 2011, 04:22:57 am
I think I've followed this, but I was just hoping someone could provide clarification on when the Jammer whistle would go?
hey man,

Similar to a no pack start. Just wait a beat.

tweeeeet... <pause>... tweet tweet

Quote
But are they considered to have "crossed" the pivot line? I know they are ruled to be in front of it, and for the point of releasing the jammers, is that the same thing? Otherwise, technically, wouldn't they be lapping the jammers if the pack has to continue forward once they have yielded to physically cross the line?
Based on answers to the questions I asked here (and elsewhere) my take is that they haven't actually "crossed" the line, but since they are so far ahead there's no need to.
I'm rationalising this by thinking of the spiral jam idea... and that requiring them to cross the line is like going back in time.
Releasing the jammers (while not allowing the pack to move forward) gets everyone to the same place on the spiral.

I love the spiral   ;D
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Black Adder on July 07, 2011, 05:32:59 am
Quote
Blue team lines up behind the jammer line.
One red blocker joins the blue team behind the jammer line.
Rest of the Red team are between the pivot/jammer lines.

Jam starts.

if the Red blocker behind the jammer line skates CW towards her team mates and the Blue blockers stood still would the Red blocker receive a 'destroying the Pack' major?

(I first put this up as 'skates CCW' by accident, but that's also a question worth answering)
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: the Enforcer on July 07, 2011, 07:35:40 am
Quote
Blue team lines up behind the jammer line.
One red blocker joins the blue team behind the jammer line.
Rest of the Red team are between the pivot/jammer lines.

Jam starts.

if the Red blocker behind the jammer line skates CW towards her team mates and the Blue blockers stood still would the Red blocker receive a 'destroying the Pack' major?

(I first put this up as 'skates CCW' by accident, but that's also a question worth answering)

if the blocker goes beyond 10 feet it would be destroying the pack. That blocker has no reason to rejoin their team-mates as the team-mates are the ones OOP.

to the red blocker skating CW...
[rule]6.10.20
Illegally destroying the Pack: The act of illegally destroying the pack causes all Blockers to lose relative position. The skater responsible for destroying the pack receives a major penalty.[/rule]

for the rest of her team...
[rule]6.10.1
A skater who is more than twenty (20) feet in front of or behind the pack may receive an out of play warning by a referee; however, a referee is not required to issue a warning prior to giving a penalty. Issuing penalties takes priority over issuing warnings. A warning does not have to be issued in order for a penalty to be given (see Section 9.3.1.1).[/rule]

Some may think the following would apply....
[rule]6.10.2.1.2
At the start of a jam if one team skates forward and the opposing team remains stationary, upon a No Pack scenario the Jammer start whistle will blow and no penalties for illegally destroying the pack shall be enforced. Skaters and teams are still responsible for immediately reforming a pack (see Sections 6.10.7, 6.10.12, and 6.10.20).[/rule]

however notice the first line where it says skating forward. Since the lone red blocker has skated CW, not forward/normal game play direction, causing her to destroy the pack, a penalty should be issued. The Jam start whistle should have already been blown since the relative position of the pack is already in front of the pivot line.

If I'm wrong please correct me.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: James Harper on July 07, 2011, 12:36:33 pm
ok, this maybe answered elsewhere so excuse the redundancy.

So, if the team that leaves the pivot line, while the other team waits patiently behind the jammer line, skates CCW to rejoin then decides to stop or skate CW... have they not taken advantage of the yield?

This falls into failure to reform pack right? If one team starts to skate CCW and the other team continues CW, both receive majors for failure to reform?

The the team that enters the pack incorrectly (from the front or back) should also receive minors for OOP?
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: FNZebra on July 07, 2011, 01:47:36 pm
ok, this maybe answered elsewhere so excuse the redundancy.

So, if the team that leaves the pivot line, while the other team waits patiently behind the jammer line, skates CCW to rejoin then decides to stop or skate CW... have they not taken advantage of the yield?

Yes, the need to yield advantage would have been satisfied if the other skaters have the opportunity and decide not to take it. So here, the false-starting pack must wait, and if the others skaters skate CCW and then stop or turn around, the pack may then skate CCW.


This falls into failure to reform pack right? If one team starts to skate CCW and the other team continues CW, both receive majors for failure to reform?

No. Remember that we already have a pack in this case. Failure to reform applies after a no pack situation.

Go back to the beginning of this long thread for what happens if only one team lines up behind the Jammer line.

The the team that enters the pack incorrectly (from the front or back) should also receive minors for OOP?

There is not full consensus on this yet, but that's how I would call it.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: The Gorram Reaver on July 07, 2011, 04:42:22 pm
No. Remember that we already have a pack in this case. Failure to reform applies after a no pack situation.

Failure to Reform Return penalties will still apply to the skaters who are out of play.  If they begin moving toward the pack (skating counterclockwise) and then stop moving toward the pack (either by coming to a complete stop or by skating clockwise), they are still subject for penalty for failure to reform return.  
[rule]6.10.6  Out of Play skaters will be warned to re-enter the Engagement Zone and will be penalized if they do not immediately attempt to return to Engagement Zone.[/rule]
However, in ceasing their attempt to reform return to the Engagement Zone they have removed the burden of the false starting skaters to yield because they have failed to take advantage of that yield.  Once all non-false starting Blockers have either failed to take advantage of the yield or have overtaken all false-starting skaters, the false starting skaters are free to proceed without concern that their false start penalties will be escalated from a minor to a major.
[rule]6.13.16  A false start by a Jammer or Blocker who does not yield advantage. The Jammer or Blocker who committed the false start must stop all forward motion until the opposing Jammer or Blocker(s) takes the lead by passing her. If a false-starting Blocker or Jammer yields her advantage but the opposing Jammer or Blocker(s) does not take advantage of her attempt to yield position, an additional penalty must not be assessed and the yielding skater may proceed.[/rule]
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: Cliquework on July 07, 2011, 05:03:50 pm
FNZeeb is corrcet on the "reform".

Failure to "return", as opposed to reform. Evidenced in the verbal cues doc:

[rule]“Failure to Re-Enter” (6.10.11, 6.10.17)
“Failure to Reform” (6.10.12, 6.10.18)[/rule]

I also do not believe the burden will be removed until they have returned or until they are all subsequently sent off and do not exist for failure to return. Unless they are sent off they are compelled to skate forward and return. Once returned we can see at that point whether or not they take full advantage of the yield or remain in the rear of the pack.
Title: Re: Team behind jammer line
Post by: The Gorram Reaver on July 07, 2011, 05:05:52 pm
FNZeeb is corrcet on the "reform".

Failure to "return", as opposed to reform. Evidenced in the verbal cues doc:

[rule]? “Failure to Re-Enter” (6.10.11, 6.10.17)
? “Failure to Reform” (6.10.12, 6.10.18)[/rule]

Why yes!  Thank you!  They aren't failing to reform, because the pack is there, they are indeed failing to return.  duhrrrrr.....  (where's my coffee?)  (Previous post edited to reflect the appropriate terms.)