Zebra Huddle™

Non-Skating Officials => Working with Referees => Topic started by: Griz on June 27, 2011, 04:37:11 pm

Title: How is this usually handled?
Post by: Griz on June 27, 2011, 04:37:11 pm
At a recent scrimmage, I was working as rear inside pack ref. All eight blockers were on the track. I do not recall if one or both jammers were on the track, but that is not really germane to the situation. At one point during this jam, there was a "no pack" as signaled by both myself and the forward IPR, within seconds I had three white and one black blocker in front of me. They were all within approximately four or five feet of each other. I looked and saw the remaining blockers spaced out at about 20-30 feet front to back in a line, starting more than ten feet in front of the four blockers in front of me. It appeared to me that this line of blockers had more than ten feet of separation between a couple of them.  I defined the pack as the four blockers in front of me.
The forward IPR shouted no pack... he looked to be near the very front of the forward blocker. He was at least 30-35 feet in front of me. I said "Pack is here". He again shouted "No Pack". At about the same time the jam was blown dead.
Without a photo or video of the incident I can't be sure of who was right, but both he and I believed we were making the right call at the time. Is there a hierarchy? How have others handled this kind of thing in the past?
Title: Which inside pack ref is responsible for pack definition?
Post by: Bishop on June 27, 2011, 04:57:15 pm
I don't know of a heirarchy per se.  However, I have been informed that if pack definition falls primarily to any one ref, it's the rear inside pack ref.  My other suggestion would be to include information about where you're seeing a pack, e.g. "The pack is in the back."  Beyond that, it might just involve a discussion with the other pack ref about how to handle such situations in the future. 

OPRs can also be useful in these situations as they have much different viewing angles than the IPRs.  At ECDX 2010, I asked Judge Knot about assistance with pack definition by the OPRs.  He instructed us to initiate "No Pack" if we were certain there was a No Pack situation that wasn't being called.  So there might be an opportunity for OPRs to assist in your situation as well perhaps by confirming whichever call they deem correct when the IPRs have dissenting opinions.  You could limit it to hand signal [make it big a flashy in view of the incorrect IPR] and possibly ask them to echo the verbal communication.  Whatever the case, pack definition (hand/signal verbal) should be primarily the IPRs responsibility under normal circumstances.   

Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: FNZebra on June 27, 2011, 06:01:37 pm
In most of the bouts I've worked as IPR, I and the other IPR have decided before the bout began which of us is most responsible for declaring pack definition. Usually it has been the rear IPR, as the front IPR is usually watching for OOP chasing.

This has often been part of the officials meeting, so that all PRs know who they should be listening for declaring pack/no pack, and that they are all then responsible for watching for penalties at that time.
Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: Ms. High-handed on June 27, 2011, 06:24:43 pm
I think I understand you dilemma that not everyone knows approximately how far 10 feet or 20 feet can be on the track. You can use rope to help to recognized the distance especially in the motion movement, just ask the girls to help you out with the pack.

Of course it is as exercise.

Quote
This has often been part of the officials meeting, so that all PRs know who they should be listening for declaring pack/no pack, and that they are all then responsible for watching for penalties at that time.
even though at the end the person didn't know how far 10 feet or 20 feet are, just don't correct him but if you want, do it after the bout. Because decision has been made  :(
Some people take feedback differently, if he get offended easily, do it with rope 10" / 20"

good luck!!
Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: Megapickle on July 01, 2011, 03:01:01 am
It appeared to me that this line of blockers had more than ten feet of separation between a couple of them.

Honestly, I probably would've deferred to the front IPR, because he was so much closer to this all-important separation. That's assuming that the rear 4-person "mini-pack" was unmistakable, even from his distant position.

If the difference in opinion were that blatant or happened again, I'd double-check that everyone is using the right measuring-stick. It's not 10' along the track (as the flawed 10' lines might make you believe), it's 10' in any direction. Two skaters can be about even with each other, but if one is on the inside edge and the other is on the outside edge, they're potentially not in proximity & don't together make a pack.
Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: Black Adder on July 01, 2011, 03:44:43 am
I think this call hinges on how close the 'other' skaters were in proximity to each other. Although they were in a line that doesn't make them not a 'pack' if each were within ten feet of the other then that would still make a second pack creating, in this instance a split pack eg...


x------o----x-------x                         00x0
    9ft     8ft   9.9ft         12ft          rear group


that's still a split pack so a 'No Pack' call is correct.
Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: PackMan on July 01, 2011, 05:44:38 am
If the difference in opinion were that blatant or happened again, I'd double-check that everyone is using the right measuring-stick. It's not 10' along the track (as the flawed 10' lines might make you believe), it's 10' in any direction. Two skaters can be about even with each other, but if one is on the inside edge and the other is on the outside edge, they're potentially not in proximity & don't together make a pack.

Pretty sure that's wrong.  See 4.1.1.2 below.  Note that the definition of proximity includes the words "in front of or behind"
[rule]4.1.1.2Proximity is defined as not more than ten feet (as measured from the hips) in front of or behind the nearest pack skater[/rule]
Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: JoeXCore on July 01, 2011, 06:00:19 am
If the difference in opinion were that blatant or happened again, I'd double-check that everyone is using the right measuring-stick. It's not 10' along the track (as the flawed 10' lines might make you believe), it's 10' in any direction. Two skaters can be about even with each other, but if one is on the inside edge and the other is on the outside edge, they're potentially not in proximity & don't together make a pack.

Pretty sure that's wrong.  See 4.1.1.2 below.  Note that the definition of proximity includes the words "in front of or behind"
[rule]4.1.1.2Proximity is defined as not more than ten feet (as measured from the hips) in front of or behind the nearest pack skater[/rule]


Pack Man, you are correct. Pickle definitely has this wrong.
Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: Megapickle on July 01, 2011, 06:37:06 am
Pack Man, you are correct. Pickle definitely has this wrong.
Interesting. This past weekend, I asked this directly of the local gurus. Either they misunderstood my question, or our region is misapplying this rule. I'll run it by them again.

Now, if we're only evaluating front-back distance ("even" skaters have d=0, no matter how widely they're separated laterally), then that makes me wonder -- How do you evaluate on the curves? Are the proverbial "ten foot" lines taken as gospel, even though they're actually 7' on the inside & 14' on the outside? Is a series of skaters, each separated by 8' (eight actual feet), considered a pack on the outside of the curve but not a pack on the inside (because there's more than one "ten foot" line between them)?
Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: JoeXCore on July 01, 2011, 06:44:12 am
Pack Man, you are correct. Pickle definitely has this wrong.
Interesting. This past weekend, I asked this directly of the local gurus. Either they misunderstood my question, or our region is misapplying this rule. I'll run it by them again.

Now, if we're only evaluating front-back distance ("even" skaters have d=0, no matter how widely they're separated laterally), then that makes me wonder -- How do you evaluate on the curves? Are the proverbial "ten foot" lines taken as gospel, even though they're actually 7' on the inside & 14' on the outside? Is a series of skaters, each separated by 8' (eight actual feet), considered a pack on the outside of the curve but not a pack on the inside (because there's more than one "ten foot" line between them)?

10 feet is 10 feet the lines are guides.
Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: mick hawkins on July 01, 2011, 07:39:45 am
Pack Man, you are correct. Pickle definitely has this wrong.
Interesting. This past weekend, I asked this directly of the local gurus. Either they misunderstood my question, or our region is misapplying this rule. I'll run it by them again.

Now, if we're only evaluating front-back distance ("even" skaters have d=0, no matter how widely they're separated laterally), then that makes me wonder -- How do you evaluate on the curves? Are the proverbial "ten foot" lines taken as gospel, even though they're actually 7' on the inside & 14' on the outside? Is a series of skaters, each separated by 8' (eight actual feet), considered a pack on the outside of the curve but not a pack on the inside (because there's more than one "ten foot" line between them)?

There a nice explanation and pretty pictures on how to judge distances over here (http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=1442)

Essentially the distance between skaters isn't what we judge.
Imagine a skater on the inside boundary and one adjacent on the outside boundary. Anywhere around the track this distance is >12 ft... but these skaters would be considered in the same spot when assessing the location of the pack.
Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: Megapickle on July 01, 2011, 08:01:49 am
Lots of great discussion over in that thread, Mick, but I saw no consensus on how far apart these two skaters are:
(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6015/5890288400_163b96f847_z.jpg)
14 feet 'forward' from the rear skater's perspective, or 7 feet 'backward' from the front skater? Split the difference & call it 10'?

Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: mick hawkins on July 01, 2011, 08:17:43 am
This far...

(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b185/mickdelfuego/this-far.jpg)

EDIT... you might find this (http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?action=downloads;sa=view;id=50) useful
Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: Megapickle on July 01, 2011, 08:42:50 am
Ok, so effectively, you split the difference between the arcs of each skater. I can do that. Though I'm not sure it'll catch on among my non-math-inclined crew members. I envision glazed eyes & nodding heads.

And check the one comment you got on that File, from the day you uploaded it. :-)
Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: mick hawkins on July 01, 2011, 08:47:26 am
It's just rectangles.

Wherever the skaters are, imagine a rectangle where the sides are at their hips.
or...
Imagine their position projected along a rectangle to the boundary (not along the sector lines)



oh, right.  Thanks for the comment  :)
Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: HIM-roid on July 04, 2011, 06:05:00 pm
Ok, so effectively, you split the difference between the arcs of each skater. I can do that. Though I'm not sure it'll catch on among my non-math-inclined crew members. I envision glazed eyes & nodding heads.

If your non-math inclined crew members don't catch on, then yes, your crew will be calling it wrong. I would highly advise them to attend one of the ref clinics. This and a lot of other misconceptions are either covered or asked in class. I was lucky enough to have a Level 5 and Level 3 at my clinic. There explanations were spot on and dispelled the misconceptions that I got from reading the rule and application. It was definitely worth every penny I spent. Plus, this takes you out of the lime light when the answer is revealed. Some refs out there take offense to being corrected, but those that can accept change are usually the ones who surpass the other refs in their league.
Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: Megapickle on July 04, 2011, 06:48:34 pm
I would highly advise them to attend one of the ref clinics.

Thanks, but preaching to the choir. I was stoked when the clinics were announced, but league higher-ups declined our request for funding (~$600/person). Maybe we'll get lucky next year with a clinic within driving distance, in a city where we have friends to stay with.
Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: HIM-roid on July 04, 2011, 07:42:58 pm
Yes, some leagues don't have the funding to foot the whole bill. I was going to the local clinic for my own sake regardless if my league paid for it or not. Once I told them I was going, they offered to pay for the admission cost. Everything else was on me and as I stated earlier, it was the best money I have ever spent. With ZH as a revenue, maybe you can find someone close to the venue to offer you derby housing to help offset the cost.
Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: Megapickle on July 04, 2011, 08:15:46 pm
With ZH as a revenue,

Is there some money-making opportunity here I don't know about?  ;)
Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: HIM-roid on July 04, 2011, 08:52:01 pm
no, not money MAKING, but networking and maybe SAVING money. lol
Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: Darkjester on July 05, 2011, 05:58:44 pm
I think HIM meant 'avenue'.. With ZH as an Avenue, you could check to see if anyone local to the clinic could put you up or if other refs wanted to share a hotel room :-)


I second HIM's opinion on the value of the Clinics, and I wasn't even able to attend. (Stupid retail being open on Sundays) if I was off that Sunday it would have been worth the 3.5 Hour drive to New Orleans for not only MY league, but the wisdom that could be shared with the FL panhandle.
Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: Graeme on July 06, 2011, 11:54:59 am
I would highly advise them to attend one of the ref clinics. This and a lot of other misconceptions are either covered or asked in class. I was lucky enough to have a Level 5 and Level 3 at my clinic. There explanations were spot on and dispelled the misconceptions that I got from reading the rule and application. It was definitely worth every penny I spent. Plus, this takes you out of the lime light when the answer is revealed. Some refs out there take offense to being corrected, but those that can accept change are usually the ones who surpass the other refs in their league.

i will be going to the Austrlian clinic, and i'm extremely lucky my league is footing the bill for everything :)
i can't wait, since there is some many things that i think i understand, but am likely to be clarified about.... 

thanks for the link Mick H, i'll be needing to print this and take ot to training tomorrow night to explain this to the other refs at my league...
Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: Wheels Bohr on July 06, 2011, 04:26:03 pm
Apologies in advance if this is pedantic, but I just want to come back to the 10'/20' box one more time. I was also at the wftda clinic HIM-roid attended and it was explained to think of distances as being a 10' or 20' rectangle in front of the skater as has been discussed here before (http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=1442). But I'm not confident that they were explicit about what angle the box should be tilted. I think I understand what Mick showed nicely in his diagram and described: 
It's just rectangles.

Wherever the skaters are, imagine a rectangle where the sides are at their hips.
or...
Imagine their position projected along a rectangle to the boundary (not along the sector lines)
But that means the angle of the in play box around a skater would change depending on where the second skater is positioned?
When it was described at the WFTDA clinic, I thought they meant having one side of the rectangle be the line perpendicular to the inside track going through the skater, so if a skater were on a guideline (sectorline), that would be the beginning of her box of proximity and it would extend forward and backward 10'. This would allow a skater to always have one clearly defined box moving with her, as opposed to having a different box orientation for every skater you compare her position with.
Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: Megapickle on July 06, 2011, 04:46:19 pm
Unfortunately, that wouldn't work, because the respective boxes for inside & outside skaters would be dramatically different, and there's no guide for which one takes precedence. Refer back to my example with the two red X players. If you use a box extending forward from the rear outside skater, squared up to her sector line, they're well within proximity, but if you use a box backward from the front inside skater, they're not.

It is true that Mick's rectangle must be positioned at just the right angle, split between the two respective sector lines, which essentially 'averages' the respective arc trajectories of the skaters.
Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: Wheels Bohr on July 06, 2011, 05:26:20 pm
Ah thanks, I didn't notice that inconsistency before. That does clarify the problem with the "absolute" box. "Relative" box it is then.  ;D
Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: FNZebra on July 06, 2011, 06:24:04 pm
/ me pages @Cub to this thread

/ me slowly backs out of the thread which has been overrun by math nerds
Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: HIM-roid on July 06, 2011, 08:02:37 pm
Mega, if you aren't going to be able to attend one of the clinics, maybe you can find someone locally that did attend and they can share their experience and clarifications with you or maybe even find a certified ref that is in the area and pick their mind. IF you can get the right one to explain "IT" to a way that you can understand, it is like a big ol' light goes off and "poof" it starts making sense. I tried the derby lawyer stance and tore apart sentences and words until I got to the point I was confusing myself and making things way more complicated than they needed to be.
Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: mick hawkins on July 07, 2011, 02:23:05 am
But that means the angle of the in play box around a skater would change depending on where the second skater is positioned?
When it was described at the WFTDA clinic, I thought they meant having one side of the rectangle be the line perpendicular to the inside track going through the skater, so if a skater were on a guideline (sectorline), that would be the beginning of her box of proximity and it would extend forward and backward 10'. This would allow a skater to always have one clearly defined box moving with her, as opposed to having a different box orientation for every skater you compare her position with.

something like this?...
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b185/mickdelfuego/distances.jpg)

It's the same method - the rectangle is placed depending on what you're measuring.

The question on the previous page asked "what's the distance between these skaters" - hence the diagram
If you're asking "where's 10' in front of and behind this skater", the method's still the same. the rectangle is just positioned around the skater

And really... when you get right down to it... there's no way Refs can measure these distances accurately during a game.
The skaters are moving around and across the track, the refs are moving too.... and the track corners are two non-concentric circles (!)

This method simply serves to make sure we're all judging distances the same way - and arent looking at distances laterally across the track. (That's the way I look at it anyway).


It is true that Mick's rectangle must be positioned at just the right angle, split between the two respective sector lines, which essentially 'averages' the respective arc trajectories of the skaters.
For what it's worth... I don't think considering the sector lines helps much. Theyre a guide.
Plus you want to be able to judge distances without need to look at the ground for any length of time.

When explaining this to new refs I have them stand in the infield, looking directly across the track.
Imagine your arms stretched out from your sides (even have them put their arms out).
The ref's arms are along the side of the rectangle where the distance is measured - with the Ref being in the centre of the measurement.

(For example, in the above diagram the ref might stand where the 2 arrowheads meet)

Combine this with a few drills on judging 10' and 20' distances and it comes together with practice.

(I like to practice judging distances on a track that doesn't have 10ft marks, or sector lines)
Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: Wheels Bohr on July 07, 2011, 04:40:44 am
Yes, that's the diagram I had in mind. But the problem with that method is that if you apply the same rule to draw the rectangle around the other blocker (the one in front) then the rear blocker falls outside of her 10' box, which is a contradiction.

I totally agree that the difference between the two methods would not matter on a practical level though since we're asked to just eyeball it. Our league will be getting out our ropes to make sure we're calibrated decently (we also don't practice with the 10' guides).

Thanks, and I love your diagrams Mick!
Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: mick hawkins on July 07, 2011, 05:08:04 am
Yes, that's the diagram I had in mind. But the problem with that method is that if you apply the same rule to draw the rectangle around the other blocker (the one in front) then the rear blocker falls outside of her 10' box, which is a contradiction.

Indeed!... Which is why i think this method is best used to judge distance between skaters (as opposed to in front of or behind)

that is...
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b185/mickdelfuego/10feet.jpg)


Couldn't resist one more  ;)
Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: PackMan on July 07, 2011, 03:27:45 pm
For what it's worth, the league I practice with has recently decided to use hash marks rather than full sector lines.  The reason is two fold.  For one thing the hash mark by neccessity draws your eye into the track when glancing for a reference.  The other thing is that at 3' out from the interior track boundary the sector lines ARE 10' apart, so, by using a hash mark we have a more reliable reference.  That is, since we don't have the parts of the sector that are notably less and more than 10' apart we can effectively use the hash marks as a reminder of what 10' looks like.
Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: ttjustice on July 07, 2011, 04:40:00 pm
We also use true 10' marks on the track- its 10' from the center of each 2' long strip of tape.  I got a setup diagram last year and tried it out and we really like it- so much easier to judge.  I actually have incorporated setup points into my track setup ropes for easy layout.  Its actually more than 3' out from the inside track boundary, I think its a little over 5'.

They are somewhat visible here:

(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3551/5835179654_e4ba05516b_z.jpg)
Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: Two Bit Score on August 18, 2011, 09:35:40 pm
If the difference in opinion were that blatant or happened again, I'd double-check that everyone is using the right measuring-stick. It's not 10' along the track (as the flawed 10' lines might make you believe), it's 10' in any direction. Two skaters can be about even with each other, but if one is on the inside edge and the other is on the outside edge, they're potentially not in proximity & don't together make a pack.

Pretty sure that's wrong.  See 4.1.1.2 below.  Note that the definition of proximity includes the words "in front of or behind"
[rule]4.1.1.2Proximity is defined as not more than ten feet (as measured from the hips) in front of or behind the nearest pack skater[/rule]


George Marchant just asked a question over on facebook that had me re-reading the rules.. (that's a good thing really!).  I've followed this whole debate about squares, and lines, and it made a lot of sense, but doesn't this rule:
[rule]4.1.2.1 - Distances for determining the Pack and the Engagement Zone are measured as the shortest distance between skaters’ hips (see Section 8.3.2 for hips).
[/rule]
Doesn't 4.1.2.1 when included with 4.1.1.2 make Megapickle right?  And if 4.1.2.1 covers pack definitions, and engagement zone definitions, what other times do we have to measure skater distances in the game?

The more I think I know.... the less it turns out to be...

Edit * had a clarification from a ref that know a bit more than me, and that doesn't take a lot at this point!! Seems like even though 4.1.2.1 and 4.1.1.2 say one thing, they just don't work when applied to real games, hence where the interpretations come from.  Please put up with me, still learning!
Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: Megapickle on August 18, 2011, 09:55:58 pm
[rule]4.1.2.1 - Distances for determining the Pack and the Engagement Zone are measured as the shortest distance between skaters’ hips (see Section 8.3.2 for hips).
[/rule]
Seems like even though 4.1.2.1 and 4.1.1.2 say one thing, they just don't work when applied to real games, hence where the interpretations come from.

On the contrary -- I never had any problems applying my "shortest distance" interpretation before having it shot down in this thread. It may not be what the rule authors intended, but I always found it perfectly simple & logical. Frankly, you posting this rule makes me miss those days. :-)
Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: Anton Deck on August 18, 2011, 10:59:36 pm
If the difference in opinion were that blatant or happened again, I'd double-check that everyone is using the right measuring-stick. It's not 10' along the track (as the flawed 10' lines might make you believe), it's 10' in any direction. Two skaters can be about even with each other, but if one is on the inside edge and the other is on the outside edge, they're potentially not in proximity & don't together make a pack.

Pretty sure that's wrong.  See 4.1.1.2 below.  Note that the definition of proximity includes the words "in front of or behind"
[rule]4.1.1.2Proximity is defined as not more than ten feet (as measured from the hips) in front of or behind the nearest pack skater[/rule]


George Marchant just asked a question over on facebook that had me re-reading the rules.. (that's a good thing really!).  I've followed this whole debate about squares, and lines, and it made a lot of sense, but doesn't this rule:
[rule]4.1.2.1 - Distances for determining the Pack and the Engagement Zone are measured as the shortest distance between skaters’ hips (see Section 8.3.2 for hips).
[/rule]
Doesn't 4.1.2.1 when included with 4.1.1.2 make Megapickle right?  And if 4.1.2.1 covers pack definitions, and engagement zone definitions, what other times do we have to measure skater distances in the game?

The more I think I know.... the less it turns out to be...

Edit * had a clarification from a ref that know a bit more than me, and that doesn't take a lot at this point!! Seems like even though 4.1.2.1 and 4.1.1.2 say one thing, they just don't work when applied to real games, hence where the interpretations come from.  Please put up with me, still learning!


That was my post on facebook in response to roller derby rule of the day putting up a box diagram. Unlike you I think that 4.1.1.2 shows that the any distance/radius theory cannot be a correct interpretation

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=239902226048641&set=pu.169028706469327&type=1

I just find it really odd that so many people cite 4.1.2.1 but ignore 4.1.1.2 which clearly defines proximity as a distance infront and behind (that being a distance along the track), not accounting for lateral distance. The distance betwen mentioned in 4.1.2.1 is the shortest distance along the track infront or behind ..and that is measured along the inside as per the box.


Its pretty clear from the discussions Ive had with refs/players/coaches and reading through whats on here that theres a lot of confussion on how this is  applied. Im happy to go with any of the 4 intepretations Ive come across, Id just like to know that everyone understood the same one and used it. Id bought this up with quite a fairly senior European ref and what I got back from him sounded far more like the radius explanation than the box one, including and assertion that players who are level on the track with the pack  can be out of the pack bcause of a lateral distance, which i found odd.

Has there been an official clarification on this or is it just something that gets shared at ref clinics?
I had hoped the officiating guide would have something new on the subject but I cant see any clear answer there.

Am I correct in my scan reading of this that the box is the method used by the top level wftda refs? If so it would be nice as a low level wannabe ref to have something official to cite when im telling people far more experienced and knowledgeable than I that they are interpreting the rules differently to how they read to me.
Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: Two Bit Score on August 18, 2011, 11:07:38 pm

That was my post on facebook in response to roller derby rule of the day putting up a box diagram.
Yeah, I didn't mean to name drop you, I just also didn't want to not give credit to the person that had me scratching my head.

Im happy to go with any of the 4 intepretations Ive come across, Id just like to know that everyone understood the same one and used it.
 
In agreement on this!

I think this seems to be what is shared at rules clinics, but I have not attended them.  See Wheels reply in that same facebook thread.

Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: theMadStatter on August 18, 2011, 11:26:38 pm

Im happy to go with any of the 4 intepretations Ive come across, Id just like to know that everyone understood the same one and used it.
 
In agreement on this!

I think this seems to be what is shared at rules clinics, but I have not attended them.  See Wheels reply in that same facebook thread.



The (advanced) ref clinic that I just attended last weekend showed this "box method", but used the tangent on the inside track, not the outside track.  The difference can make up to a 10" difference in places (plus the inside track has smooth curvature, while the outside has slight discontinuity where the straight aways meet the corners, which would cause this 10" difference to suddenly appear/disappear as the skaters transition from corner to straightaway - and worse, for a small area at the exit of turn two and four, there are actually two possible tangents from the mid point to the outside of the track, giving two possible boxes).

Title: Re: How is this usually handled?
Post by: Anton Deck on August 19, 2011, 12:26:30 am

That was my post on facebook in response to roller derby rule of the day putting up a box diagram.
Yeah, I didn't mean to name drop you, I just also didn't want to not give credit to the person that had me scratching my head.

Im happy to go with any of the 4 intepretations Ive come across, Id just like to know that everyone understood the same one and used it.
 


In agreement on this!

I think this seems to be what is shared at rules clinics, but I have not attended them.  See Wheels reply in that same facebook thread.



No worries I was quite excited by my comment being picked up on, its like being a ta new school and someone noticing you for a reason other than wanting to take your lunch money.

The response from Wheels on their is fantastic. Im happy that the box method is the way to go.