Zebra Huddleâ„¢

Older Rulesets => 5/26/2010 Rules => Hypothetical Rules Discussion 5/26/2010 => Topic started by: Wheels Bohr on October 09, 2011, 09:15:06 pm

Title: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: Wheels Bohr on October 09, 2011, 09:15:06 pm
I think this should be an easy one, but thought it best to confirm. If a skater leaves the penalty box to talk to her teammates during lineup and returns to the box before the jam starts, what penalties (if any) would you assess?

Although it's not technically a timeout, using the rules as a guide I think this would be a minor IP:
[rule]6.13.13  A penalized skater who leaves the penalty box during either a team or official timeout.[/rule]

however, I could see a ref arguing that since it's not specified in the minors section, it would fall under the more general major IP of:
[rule]6.13.25  A skater exiting the penalty box before her penalty time finishes. (Note: If the penalty box official instructs the skater to leave early, this penalty does not apply.)[/rule]

Anyone opposed to applying 6.13.13 in this case?
Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: mick hawkins on October 09, 2011, 11:36:33 pm
Good question. I don't have a definitive answer but...

During a bout this past weekend, a Captain came into the centre from the penalty box, between jams, and began questioning something from the previous jam.
I responded to her question with "You're supposed to be in the penalty box"
To which she gave a really surprised "Oh, shit!" and took off back to the box.

I issued her with a minor IP.

I didn't see her action as having a major impact on the game; it's not like she joined a jam in progress.

I think this was the correct call based on the situation, but will happily be corrected.
Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: The Doc on October 10, 2011, 12:03:34 am
I would go major, with an insubordination, the ref put her in the box and she did not stay. Please let me know what yall think. i do agree with the minor impact. i dont know. i have been lucky enough not to have to make this happen to me yet
Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: Noah Tall on October 10, 2011, 03:05:16 am
I would give a minor, based on the next rule [rule]6.13.14
A penalized skater's teammates, manager, and/or coach who enters the designated penalty box area to communicate with a penalized skater. If the person entering is not a skater in the bout the penalty will go to the Captain.[/rule]

While there was no one entering the box, the skater did leave the box to communicate, and then return.  The effect was the same as in the above rule.
Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: The Doc on October 10, 2011, 03:19:33 am
I would give a minor, based on the next rule [rule]6.13.14
A penalized skater's teammates, manager, and/or coach who enters the designated penalty box area to communicate with a penalized skater. If the person entering is not a skater in the bout the penalty will go to the Captain.[/rule]

While there was no one entering the box, the skater did leave the box to communicate, and then return.  The effect was the same as in the above rule.



i under stand that, but if she is sitting in the box and a skater goes into the box and starts talking, the skater in the box has done nothing wrong. but in this case. the skater left the box on her own free will. talk to her team, and went back to the box b/c she know she needed to be in there. i dont think it has a "major" impact, but it is a slap in the face to the ref that put her in the box.
Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: bjmacke on October 10, 2011, 03:39:45 am
A "slap in the face" makes it sound personal, and I have a hard time seeing a justifiable link. She's flouting a rule, regardless of the individual ref that made the call that put her in the box. If she left the box to tell said ref that he should suck a 20-foot dick, well, then you might have some traction on that misconduct call.
Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: J. Ref K. on October 10, 2011, 04:40:26 am
I think this should be an easy one, but thought it best to confirm. If a skater leaves the penalty box to talk to her teammates during lineup and returns to the box before the jam starts, what penalties (if any) would you assess?

Although it's not technically a timeout, using the rules as a guide I think this would be a minor IP:
[rule]6.13.13  A penalized skater who leaves the penalty box during either a team or official timeout.[/rule]

however, I could see a ref arguing that since it's not specified in the minors section, it would fall under the more general major IP of:
[rule]6.13.25  A skater exiting the penalty box before her penalty time finishes. (Note: If the penalty box official instructs the skater to leave early, this penalty does not apply.)[/rule]

Anyone opposed to applying 6.13.13 in this case?

IP - Major

6.13.25 A skater exiting the penalty box before her penalty time finishes.

Not really any way around that imho, especially considering it's not a team time out or OTO (6.13.13).  The only other rule that I feel would apply is this:

9.3.5 If the referee is not sure whether an action warrants a major or a minor, it must be called as a minor.

But of course I'll be humbled to see what the certified refs on here say ;)
Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: The Doc on October 10, 2011, 04:51:17 am
A "slap in the face" makes it sound personal, and I have a hard time seeing a justifiable link. She's flouting a rule, regardless of the individual ref that made the call that put her in the box. If she left the box to tell said ref that he should suck a 20-foot dick, well, then you might have some traction on that misconduct call.


true story, and thats funny as H EH double hockey sticks. if a girl came up to me and told me to suck my/her 20 - ft dick, i would have to call a misconduct. but thats still funny..... my point is,.... a ref, any ref, calls, lets say...... major cut! 22! Black! and then 22 black looks at that ref and yells, "i didn't cut" and keeps skating. the skater is not obeying what you want her to so insubordination, most likely 2 mins. its the same as the skater not staying in the box. thankfully the girls i ref have respect for all refs the game and the rules, and are awesome to deal with,some Other travel teams are not so nice, (rear, but sometimes). in the league that i ref, during scrimmages i, and the other refs, will go to the box and tell the skater what they did wrong and why they got called,(we are not trainers or coaches, but we want the girls do know what happened) and if any girl has any question over anything, after a scrimmage all of our ref stick around to answer the question. (mostly no pack, and they get a major for OOP) nevertheless, true story, its not a attack on the person that i am, most dont know my real name.


thanks, you made me think
Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: mick hawkins on October 10, 2011, 06:25:22 am
I would go major, with an insubordination, the ref put her in the box and she did not stay. Please let me know what yall think. i do agree with the minor impact. i dont know. i have been lucky enough not to have to make this happen to me yet
Quote
true story, and thats funny as H EH double hockey sticks. if a girl came up to me and told me to suck my/her 20 - ft dick, i would have to call a misconduct. but thats still funny..... my point is,.... a ref, any ref, calls, lets say...... major cut! 22! Black! and then 22 black looks at that ref and yells, "i didn't cut" and keeps skating. the skater is not obeying what you want her to so insubordination, most likely 2 mins. its the same as the skater not staying in the box. thankfully the girls i ref have respect for all refs the game and the rules, and are awesome to deal with,some Other travel teams are not so nice, (rear, but sometimes). in the league that i ref, during scrimmages i, and the other refs, will go to the box and tell the skater what they did wrong and why they got called,(we are not trainers or coaches, but we want the girls do know what happened) and if any girl has any question over anything, after a scrimmage all of our ref stick around to answer the question. (mostly no pack, and they get a major for OOP) nevertheless, true story, its not a attack on the person that i am, most dont know my real name.

Insubordination does not apply here.

If a skater defies instruction to go to the penalty box THEN insubordination may apply.

However a skater in the box who leaves early has not defied/ignored any Referee's instruction. She has left before her time and IP penalties apply - as stated in the rules.
Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: Bishop on October 10, 2011, 03:37:37 pm
I concurr with Noah and Mick on the IP minor.
 
Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: J. Ref K. on October 10, 2011, 03:55:58 pm
I concurr with Noah and Mick on the IP minor.

Just to clarify, Bishop, there were two scenarios, so which one do you concur on the IP - minor (or both):

This--
If a skater leaves the penalty box to talk to her teammates during lineup and returns to the box before the jam starts, what penalties (if any) would you assess?

And/or this--
During a bout this past weekend, a Captain came into the centre from the penalty box, between jams, and began questioning something from the previous jam.
I responded to her question with "You're supposed to be in the penalty box"
To which she gave a really surprised "Oh, shit!" and took off back to the box.

I issued her with a minor IP.

I didn't see her action as having a major impact on the game; it's not like she joined a jam in progress.

I think this was the correct call based on the situation, but will happily be corrected.

I understand ref discretion on the second scenario to make it a minor, but the first one appears to be a relatively simple IP-Major (6.13.25)

Just want to be sure I'm calling things correctly, too. :)
Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: Bishop on October 10, 2011, 04:08:00 pm

The intent of 6.13.25 is to penalize skaters who have left the penalty box during play before they have been officially released.  It's not meant to be a "dead ball" foul.

If anything, this situation speaks to need for the penalty box NSOs and the pack referees (especially the OPRs) to be vigilant between jams.  Ideally, the skater wouldn't have made it over to her bench (or in Mick's situation, to the infield) before a referee intercepted her and directed her back to the penalty box. 

FWIW - Mick and Noah might not be sporting fancy patches (yet) but they both have been in the sport longer than I have.  At least, I know I pay close attention to what they have to say

Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: J. Ref K. on October 10, 2011, 04:20:55 pm

FWIW - Mick and Noah might not be sporting fancy patches (yet) but they both have been in the sport longer than I have.  At least, I know I pay close attention to what they have to say



Yup, I have a lotta respect for them, have seen many of their posts and hope I wasn't coming across as trying discredit any of their valuable input here!  :)
Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: J. Ref K. on October 10, 2011, 04:27:27 pm
But of course I'll be humbled to see what the certified refs on here say ;)


Ok, rereading my post, I see how this could come across as condescending (completely not my intent).  Apologies abound!!!
Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: Chemical A NaCl on October 10, 2011, 09:01:50 pm
Wheels and I have been having this friendy zebra wife spat over this for the past two days so thanks to all for helping settle it.    ;)

I argue along the same lines of J-Ref-K.  Rule 6.13.13 does not apply because it is not a team or official timeout.  The only other rule that would apply in this situation is 6.13.25 since she left the box before her penalty time was over.  

While it does not have a major impact on the game we must apply the rules as they are written.  Perhaps between jams should be something that WFTDA should look into adding to section 6.13.13.

I would call it IP major assuming she made it out of the box.  Ideally, as Bishop was saying, the Penalty box team or OPR's would notice and send her back to her seat before she made it that far!
Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: The Doc on October 11, 2011, 04:28:00 am

I would call it IP major assuming she made it out of the box.  Ideally, as Bishop was saying, the Penalty box team or OPR's would notice and send her back to her seat before she made it that far!

so, if a skater has 0:28 left in the box, jam ends, she (the skater in the box) leaves the box, refs give her a Major IP, does she know have 1:28 left in the box. that sound right to me but im not sure
Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: Interrobang Yerdehd on October 11, 2011, 04:41:00 am
Yes, her 28 remaining seconds plus a minute for the major.
Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: mick hawkins on October 11, 2011, 05:21:03 am

I would call it IP major assuming she made it out of the box.  Ideally, as Bishop was saying, the Penalty box team or OPR's would notice and send her back to her seat before she made it that far!

so, if a skater has 0:28 left in the box, jam ends, she (the skater in the box) leaves the box, refs give her a Major IP, does she know have 1:28 left in the box. that sound right to me but im not sure

I think theres enough consenus here to say that the Refs should not award a major for this - only a minor.
Unless the minor ends up being her 4th, she still has 0:28 to serve.
Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: Interrobang Yerdehd on October 11, 2011, 05:33:40 am
Sorry, tiredness is making me excessively terse; what Mick said is absolutely true. If, however, the referees do award the skater in The Doc's scenario a major, she should serve 1:28.
Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: Celtic Raider on October 11, 2011, 06:01:09 am
Question on this then.  Skater (also Captain) is in the box.  OTO is called and Captains and Alternates are brought into the middle.  Skater knows she was sent to the box on a bogus call and will be released from the box so she comes into the box.  Would you allow it or tell her to go back to the box until the official correction is made?

When it happened to me, I made her go back to the box because she hadn't been officially released, even though she knew it was coming.

EDIT: I also didn't give her any penalties for leaving the box?
Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: bjmacke on October 11, 2011, 06:51:59 am
That was very kind of you, but she still committed an IP for leaving the box before the ruling was overturned.

The rule is pretty clear that captains aren't allowed to leave the box or call timeouts from the box. That's why alternates exist.
Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: Interrobang Yerdehd on October 11, 2011, 02:34:02 pm
In my experience, skaters "know" that a lot of calls are bogus. ::)
Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: Celtic Raider on October 11, 2011, 03:55:18 pm
In my experience, skaters "know" that a lot of calls are bogus. ::)

No she knew that it was bogus, I even told her so before I could "officially" release her.  I can't remember specifically why it was not a good call but everyone pretty much knew it.

But I have had other players make a fuss about EVERY call made against them and their team at times.
Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: Darkjester on October 11, 2011, 04:06:43 pm
IMO the language is very clear that if the skater leaves during a Team Time Out or Official Time Out, its a minor.   

The language elsewhere is also very clear that if she leaves the penalty box early, its a Major. 

If a skater left during the 30 seconds in between jams to run to her line up and talk with them briefly, I'd issue the Major.

However, in Celtic's case I would not issue it, especially because he informed her that the call was a bad call before he could "Officially" release her. She could have assumed thats what he was doing was releasing her.

I'd be careful on the usage of the word "Bogus" call, in my opinion it creates a different connotation than 'bad call'.

The difference a bogus call is made up.
A Bad call an action occurs and the Official makes the wrong call.
Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: Interrobang Yerdehd on October 11, 2011, 04:16:44 pm
In the specific situation where you have told the skater that the call will be overturned, I agree with not issuing a penalty due to the potential misunderstanding Dj mentions. However, I don't think it's a good idea to tell skaters that calls aren't good until an official review has actually been asked for.
Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: Celtic Raider on October 11, 2011, 07:39:50 pm
It was the A who told me of the bad call from another ref if I'm remembering correctly.  She overheard me agree with him and came out when I called the other team over to tell them why she was being released.  After the game her and I chatted about it and I told her that if someone else had likely been HR she would have been dinged and in the future she shouldn't come out until she's officially told too.  It was a heat of the moment thing but glad that there is agreement that she shouldn't have been dinged.  I just wanted to make sure the due process was followed.  Thanks for the backup Bang and DJ.
Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: The Gorram Reaver on October 11, 2011, 09:14:55 pm
However, I don't think it's a good idea to tell skaters that calls aren't good until an official review has actually been asked for.

+1

Following proper procedure allows us to uphold the integrity of the entire crew.  By telling a skater "off the record" that you're going to be overturning a call as "bogus" before the proper channels have been followed you are undermining the confidence in and authority of other members of your crew.  This is a very poor trait in a Head Ref, and one that would make me not want to ref on that particular individual's crew.
Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: Darkjester on October 11, 2011, 10:51:36 pm
If I'm HR'ing a bout I *might* overturn a call only if I am 10000000% certain that it was an incorrect call and try to do it before it gets reported or the skater goes to the box. I've only done it a very small amount of time and one of those was because it was a Jammer back blocked a member of her OWN team trying to move her out of the way. The overzealous pack ref called the Major on the jammer and I repeated "SAME TEAM!" and motioned her back onto the track and explained it afterwards.

I've also been an OPR when there was a scoring discrepency called out by the fans who were yelling for me to fix the score.  That is something that the teams have to handle as I was not the Jam ref, for all I know the score could have been correct.
Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: J. Ref K. on October 12, 2011, 01:01:30 am
The language elsewhere is also very clear that if she leaves the penalty box early, its a Major. 

If a skater left during the 30 seconds in between jams to run to her line up and talk with them briefly, I'd issue the Major.

This is what my opinion (and Chemical A NaCl) is, however Bishop wrote:


The intent of 6.13.25 is to penalize skaters who have left the penalty box during play before they have been officially released.  It's not meant to be a "dead ball" foul.

So, since I have no corporate knowledge of the "intent" of the rules, I also have been applying them as they are written.  :)
Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: Bishop on October 12, 2011, 02:57:49 am
The language elsewhere is also very clear that if she leaves the penalty box early, its a Major. 

If a skater left during the 30 seconds in between jams to run to her line up and talk with them briefly, I'd issue the Major.

This is what my opinion (and Chemical A NaCl) is, however Bishop wrote:


The intent of 6.13.25 is to penalize skaters who have left the penalty box during play before they have been officially released.  It's not meant to be a "dead ball" foul.

So, since I have no corporate knowledge of the "intent" of the rules, I also have been applying them as they are written.  :)

Well, I wouldn't consider my thoughts corporate knowledge.  Stego won't even show me the secret handshake yet.  In fact, she has the audacity to insist that there *isn't* one. 

Anyway, what I'm doing is more like of an inductive study of the rule set.  Contrast and compare the specific examples of minor penalties given in the rule set (6.13.13, 6.13.14 and 6.13.15) to examples in the major penalty section (6.13.25 and 6.13.27).  What's similar between those penalties?  What's different?  What matters?  When in doubt downgrade as directed under 9.3 so that you don't overcall the game. 

The problem with applying a strict rule book based ruling here (i.e. 6.13.25 to either situation presented in this thread) is that it doesn't consider the context of the scenario.  Considering both situations in the broader context of the rules and my tacit cultural knowledge of the game all lead me to conclude a minor should be issued.
 
Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: mick hawkins on October 12, 2011, 03:25:11 am
IMO the language is very clear that if the skater leaves during a Team Time Out or Official Time Out, its a minor.   

The language elsewhere is also very clear that if she leaves the penalty box early, its a Major. 

If a skater left during the 30 seconds in between jams to run to her line up and talk with them briefly, I'd issue the Major.

Actually... I dont think the rules say that "clearly" at all.
They do say...
[rule]The following penalties are addressed in detail in the sections listed below. These sections hold specific examples that are to be followed explicitly. Illegal actions not specified below must be penalized using these specifics as guiding examples.[/rule]

Using 6.13.13 as a guiding example for a skater leaving the penalty box while a jam is NOT in progress, I think it's more than reasonable to issue a minor for a skater leaving the box between jams if she doesn't join the next jam.

I don't see how there's major impact for such an action... but am keen to have it explained

Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: Stanarchy on October 12, 2011, 03:40:25 am
Anyway, what I'm doing is more like of an inductive study of the rule set.  Contrast and compare the specific examples of minor penalties given in the rule set (6.13.13, 6.13.14 and 6.13.15) to examples in the major penalty section (6.13.25 and 6.13.27).  What's similar between those penalties?  What's different?  What matters?  When in doubt downgrade as directed under 9.3 so that you don't overcall the game.  

The problem with applying a strict rule book based ruling here (i.e. 6.13.25 to either situation presented in this thread) is that it doesn't consider the context of the scenario.  Considering both situations in the broader context of the rules and my tacit cultural knowledge of the game all lead me to conclude a minor should be issued.

This sounds the most right to me...  Situationally, leaving the box during the 30-second break between jams has the same impact on the gameplay as leaving the box during a TTO or OTO - Minor (at best).  And the preface to Section 6 does state :
[Rule]These sections hold specific examples that are to be followed explicitly. Illegal actions not specified below must be penalized using these specifics as guiding examples.[/rule]

And if we want to go and push this thread in the direction of ridiculous...   Nothing in the rules (that I could find) states that the skater is allowed to leave the box during the break between periods...  Should we then give the skater who is in the box at the end of the first period and leaves it for a break - a Major per 6.13.25 (exiting the box early IP).....?

Edit: Mick beat me to it...
Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: mick hawkins on October 12, 2011, 03:51:01 am
Anyway, what I'm doing is more like of an inductive study of the rule set.  Contrast and compare the specific examples of minor penalties given in the rule set (6.13.13, 6.13.14 and 6.13.15) to examples in the major penalty section (6.13.25 and 6.13.27).  What's similar between those penalties?  What's different?  What matters?  When in doubt downgrade as directed under 9.3 so that you don't overcall the game. 

The problem with applying a strict rule book based ruling here (i.e. 6.13.25 to either situation presented in this thread) is that it doesn't consider the context of the scenario.  Considering both situations in the broader context of the rules and my tacit cultural knowledge of the game all lead me to conclude a minor should be issued.
 

This is what I was trying to say... just no-where near as well.

+1
Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: Darkjester on October 12, 2011, 04:41:55 am
Except that the rules state

[rule]6.13.25A skater exiting the penalty box before her penalty time finishes. (Note: If the penalty box official instructs the skater to leave early, this penalty does not apply.)[/rule]


Title: Re: Leaving the box during lineup, minor or major Illegal Procedure?
Post by: bjmacke on October 12, 2011, 05:09:34 am
Let's note that the better part of valor is discretion and think for a minute. Some thought exercises since this is the hypothetical area of the board:

- What motivated the exit from the box?
- Is she coming back?

Always assuming ignorance before malice, I'd hope that a skater leaving during a lineup is just confused. This could be confirmed by a relatively appropriate, "color, number, you still have penalty time to serve." or even an emotive "WHY YOU LEAVE ME SO SOOON??" if that's your style. Point being is that if a skater mistakenly leaves the box, she has the ability to correct it and only see a minor.

If it's apparent she has no intention of coming back, then maybe a major penalty makes sense. Maybe. I'm willing to be The Nice Guy and give them until the jam start whistle to fix the problem; but it should be apparent relatively quickly if a skater leaves the box and isn't willing to come back and serve the rest of their time.

And you might even be able to offload that decision by calling an OTO and having the head ref make the call. Because nothing says "appropriate use of OTO" like a skater leaving the box between jams and not coming back.