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Older Rulesets => 5/26/2010 Rules => Hypothetical Rules Discussion 5/26/2010 => Topic started by: ShoNuff on October 15, 2011, 04:36:16 pm

Title: 7.4 and Jammer leaves early.
Post by: ShoNuff on October 15, 2011, 04:36:16 pm
Split From: http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=2254.msg31335#msg31335

What I've been told when it came up in a bout was that 7.4.4 is an emphasis to remind the reader that the penalties for leaving early and the unfinished penalty time are to be treated as two distinct penalties for other 7.4 scenarios.

I had a case where jammer A left 2 seconds early and jammer B arrived and began penalty service before jammer B could be sent back to the box.  We did not adjudicate it correctly but asked for direction on the scenario from WFTDA afterwards.  What came back was that we needed to view the penalties as two distinct events rather than an extension of the original penalty.

The correct way to adjudicate the scenario was that jammer B should be released when jammer A returned to the box and jammer A would serve a 2 second penalty followed by a penalty equal in length to the time jammer B had been seated.

So the second penalty could be reduced in length to reduce jammerless jam time even though the first penalty could not be effectively shortened since 58 seconds of it had already been served.
Title: 7.4 and Jammer leaves early.
Post by: Interrobang Yerdehd on October 15, 2011, 08:42:45 pm
So:
Red jammer is in the box, and leaves 2 seconds early.
Blue jammer sits before red jammer can be returned to the box.
Red jammer is given an IP major and sent back to the box.
Blue jammer is released when red jammer sits, having served 17 seconds.
Red jammer now serves 19 (2 + 17) seconds?
Title: 7.4 and Jammer leaves early.
Post by: J. Ref K. on October 16, 2011, 02:43:15 am
So:
Red jammer is in the box, and leaves 2 seconds early.
Blue jammer sits before red jammer can be returned to the box.
Red jammer is given an IP major and sent back to the box.
Blue jammer is released when red jammer sits, having served 17 seconds.
Red jammer now serves 19 (2 + 17) seconds?

Wouldn't it be 1+19 (the add'l minute for the IP Major)?
Title: 7.4 and Jammer leaves early.
Post by: Interrobang Yerdehd on October 16, 2011, 05:59:02 am
If I understand ShoNuff correctly, the minute for the IP is reduced to match the 17 seconds the other jammer served.
Title: 7.4 and Jammer leaves early.
Post by: ShoNuff on October 16, 2011, 02:15:17 pm
That's correct, the IP should have been reduced to match the time jammer B had served.  So if Jammer B had sat for 17 seconds, she would be released when jammer A sat and jammer A woudld serve the remaining 2 seconds of her original penalty and then serve 17 seconds to match the penalty service of jammer B.
Title: 7.4 and Jammer leaves early.
Post by: J. Ref K. on October 16, 2011, 02:45:21 pm
That's correct, the IP should have been reduced to match the time jammer B had served.  So if Jammer B had sat for 17 seconds, she would be released when jammer A sat and jammer A woudld serve the remaining 2 seconds of her original penalty and then serve 17 seconds to match the penalty service of jammer B.

So this only applies if another jammer enters the box and the first jammer exits early, got it. 

If Jammer A simply leaves 2 seconds early (the other Jammer is still on the track, not on her way to the box), though, it would fall under 6.13.25, then... I think I'm wrapping my head around this properly ;)
Title: 7.4 and Jammer leaves early.
Post by: ShoNuff on October 16, 2011, 05:29:19 pm
The point I was trying to make with the example is that 7.4.4 is reminding you to treat the IP:Major for early box departure as a new penalty, not an extension of the one the jammer left the box early in.

The example was meant to show the resulting utility of that thought process.  You can still minimize jammerless jam time by shortening the second penalty even though the they have more of the current one to serve.  In that regard it is similar to the multi-minute jammer penalty situation in 7.4.10 where you can completely cancel the penalty time for a penalty that jammer A has not yet begun to serve in order to immediately release jammer B.

I've run into some debate in a jammer ABAB situation that I think this also gives guidance on.

Jammer A arrives and sits for 50 seconds.
Jammer B arrives.  Jammer A is released and Jammer B is assigned a 50 second penalty.
Jammer A returns 40 seconds later.  Jammer B's penalty can't be shortened further, 7.4.1.
10 seconds later, jammer B is released, Jammer A continues serving her second penalty.
25 seconds later, Jammer B returns to the box.

I've heard two interpretations of 7.4.1 for what to do next.

[rule]7.4.1 - If the first penalized Jammer is sent back to the box after being released from the penalty box while the second penalized Jammer is still serving her required time, the game will continue without a Jammer on the track for the duration of any penalty time that is required to be served.[/rule]

1) Both jammers sit out their full minute penalties and an extended jammerless jam period ensues.

2) Since the original penalty that was reduced to 50 seconds has been served by both jammers, the new penalty for jammer A can be shortened without loss of parity in penalty service.  Jammer A should be immediately released and Jammer B assigned 35 seconds of penalty time to maintain parity with jammer A.

My understanding from the direction we received for the example I gave is that interpretation 2 is correct and 7.4.1 does not prohibit shortening of the second penalty so long as in the end both jammers serve equal time for equal penalties.  Even though the penalties occured in a continuous string, I can still isolate the penalties from each other and balance them individually for 7.4 purposes.

Title: 7.4 and Jammer leaves early.
Post by: Numb3r Crunch3r on October 17, 2011, 12:36:00 am
2) Since the original penalty that was reduced to 50 seconds has been served by both jammers, the new penalty for jammer A can be shortened without loss of parity in penalty service.  Jammer A should be immediately released and Jammer B assigned 35 seconds of penalty time to maintain parity with jammer A.

I've always been taught that this is the correct way to time these penalties. The specific way I was taught referred to jammer penalties in pairs/even numbers - if A is in the box and B is sent, then the jammers switch out, that's a pair of penalties. If A is re-sent while B is still in the box, B is still part of the first pair and A is now the start of a second pair - 7.4.1 applies and they both stay. If B is sent back again before A is released, that's the completion of the second pair, and the jammers can switch out again.

Applying that to the idea of jammer A leaving early while jammer B is still arriving - even though she left early mistakenly, she had still exited the box when jammer B sat for her penalty - hence jammer B is the start of the new pair, and jammer A's illegal procedure (plus unserved time) is the completion of that pair.

Although now that I think of it - how does that unserved time get calculated? Is it based on a full 60 second penalty, or is it based on the additional seconds between when she left and when jammer B sat down? If jammer A left at 33 seconds and jammer B sat down at 35 seconds - does jammer A have 2, or 27 seconds additional time to serve?

My own thoughts are, based on the pairs reasoning, that the extra time will be 27 seconds - because if you're shortening jammer time based on the B-A pair, you can't also extrapolate an A-B pair that never actually happened.

...and wow, I went from attempting to support/answer a question to asking my own question. Whoops.
Title: 7.4 and Jammer leaves early.
Post by: Interrobang Yerdehd on October 17, 2011, 02:09:41 am
It's based on a full 60 seconds for exactly the reason you said.