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Non-Skating Officials => Working with Referees => Topic started by: Bratty Cardia on December 19, 2011, 08:49:58 pm

Title: Skaters removing helmet covers in the box
Post by: Bratty Cardia on December 19, 2011, 08:49:58 pm
Via the Penalty Box section of the WFTDA Officiating Standard Practices document:

[rule]Pivot/Jammer Cover Management

What should a skater do if she has a helmet cover on her helmet when she reports to the penalty box?

Skaters in the penalty box that have helmet covers on their helmets must keep the helmet covers visible to the referees at all times while in the box.[/rule]

If Pink Jammer, for example, removes her helmet cover before she sits down in the penalty box, perhaps to mislead the opposing team, or it's too hot, or it doesn't match her eyeshadow or whatever, what should the procedure be? It doesn't seem to be covered under the Illegal Procedures section of the rules at all.

My best guess is that the Penalty Timer should inform the skater that her penalty is not being timed, and that the timing will not start until the cover is visible to the referees. (Does that necessarily mean on her helmet, though?) My justification, from the Officiating Standard Practices document:

[rule]Refusal to Stand

What actions should the Penalty Box Official take if a skater refuses to stand as directed?

The Penalty Box Official shall inform the skater who is refusing to stand that the remaining time of her penalty will not be timed until she stands.[/rule]
[rule]Further Penalty Box Practices

[/rule]

Thus I imagine that telling the skater why her penalty is not being timed would not constitute coaching, based on the first citation there. Based on the second citation, I am led to believe that a Penalty Timer must inform the skater that her penalty is not being timed.

Certain violations of penalty box procedure, e.g. not standing when told to, not sitting when supposed to, entering from the wrong direction, etc., do not merit penalties, but do result in the pausing of a skater's penalty time until the proper procedure is followed. Note the following references in the WFTDA rules:

[rule]7.3.2—Penalty Box Procedures, Rights, And Restrictions
When a skater is sent to the penalty box, she must immediately exit the track and skate to the penalty box in the counter-clockwise direction.
7.3.2.1—Penalty timing will not begin until the penalized skater legally enters the penalty box from the appropriate counter-clockwise direction.[/rule]
[rule]7.3.3.1—When there are ten (10) seconds remaining on the penalty clock of a penalized
skater, she will be instructed by the penalty timer to stand. She must stand.[/rule]

If a skater breaks rule 7.3.3.1, i.e. "She must stand", via standard practices, her penalty time is paused, and she is informed of this, but no additional penalty is assessed. Can this practice also be extended to when a skater breaks the instruction: "Skaters…must keep the helmet covers visible to the referees at all times while in the box"?

The other issue is how one defines "visible to the referees". Is this a matter of communication between the penalty box staff and the skating officials on the track, or is there a commonly accepted definition, such as "on her helmet"? Is this something the Head Referee should clarify with the entire officiating crew before a bout begins?

(In other news, I just realized that I could have entitled this post: "Skaters removing their panties in the box", which sounds way more inappropriate than it ought to. I'm glad that "helmet cover" is considered standard terminology.)
Title: Re: Skaters removing helmet covers in the box
Post by: Bishop on December 19, 2011, 11:37:47 pm
Well, it looks like you thought through all the relevant points here.  Yeah, you could have the timer stop timing the skater, but I haven't ever heard of anyone doing that.  I wouldn't do it.  There's not a lot of precedent to empower a penalty timer to take punitive actions for violations other than what's specified in the WFTDA Officiating Standard Practices document. 

*IF* the penalty timer is not timing the skater, they definitely should inform the skater.  It's called transparency, not coaching. 

As far as what's to be considered visible: I have to be able to clearly see the cover from the infield in order for me to consider it to be visible.  It does not have to be on the skater's helmet. 

Also, generally the best way to get people to read and respond to posts is to keep them short and to the point.  But if you learned something through the action of typing that all out, well that's good too. :)

Title: Re: Skaters removing helmet covers in the box
Post by: Two Bit Score on December 20, 2011, 01:29:29 pm
I think the cleanest (from a strictly sticking with the rules situation) way through it is not really the optimal way (from a use of resources/timeliness view).
Skater removes the cover, flag a reff. Have the ref say "Skater Blue 14, you must wear your helmet cover while in the penalty box. Replace the cover now." If they do, great. If they don't, tweet insubordination, add a minute. Repeat as needed. (Rarely takes more than 6 of those.)

Unfortunately, it isn't a real timely solution. It can take forever to get a ref in the middle of a jam, and minute could be up before the situation is addressed.

(This would obviously be for such bouts where the Standard Practices document was deemed to be applicable and in force.)
Curious to hear what others think/have to say.
Title: Re: Skaters removing helmet covers in the box
Post by: Bratty Cardia on December 21, 2011, 08:57:16 pm
I was considering the insubordination thing as an option, but as you mentioned, it can take forever. Also:

[rule]6.14 INSUBORDINATION
Insubordination is willfully failing to comply with a referee’s orders. Examples of insubordination include but are not limited to failure to leave the track for a penalty or failure to leave the floor after fouling out.[/rule]

It's not "failing to comply with an official's orders", it seems. So the Penalty Box Official has no authority to request an insubordination penalty unless the referee directly instructs the skater to replace her helmet cover.

P.S. "Rarely takes more than 6 of those"? Brilliant! Also, deliberate and excessive insubordination is grounds for expulsion. I can't imagine it going that far, though.
Title: Re: Skaters removing helmet covers in the box
Post by: Darkjester on December 24, 2011, 12:35:02 pm
To throw a wrench...

What if the jammer goes to the box SANS helmet cover (I.E. It fell off/mid-pass etc., whatever and then Jammer commits a Major Penalty).

The Jammer could be sent to the penalty box as an inactive jammer. She doesn't have the cover, the rules tell us NOT to pick up the cover on the track.

I think in this instance you need to let it go and make sure the Jam Ref follows the jammer to the box (not necessarily standing beside the box unless its on the infield).

Title: Re: Skaters removing helmet covers in the box
Post by: Rocktimus Prime on December 24, 2011, 10:46:01 pm
Two things going on here:

1. You are assuming too much accountability for yourself in your role as an official as currently determined by rules and standard practices. If you miss something because a player made a silly choice in removing her helmet cover when she should not, that is really her fault-more so than yours.

2. Number 1 is true because there are currently no rules that define the consequences removing a helmet cover while in the box. Since there are none, I would strongly advise against creating your own. As Bishop mentions, punishing this can be seen as punitive, which means punishing for the sake of doing so and usually implies a penalty is more sever than it ought to be.

If a situation is not already written into the "No Impact/No Penalty," "Minor," or "Major" category, for the sake of the game, please do not put it there.
Title: Re: Skaters removing helmet covers in the box
Post by: Jono on December 25, 2011, 11:53:41 am
Sorry I disagree.  There's nothing in the rules that state they have to have the panty on their helmet in the sin bin.  There's also nothing that specifically prohibits the removal of panties as they are neither listed as uniform or safety gear.

[rule]Pivot/Jammer Cover Management

What should a skater do if she has a helmet cover on her helmet when she reports to the penalty box?

Skaters in the penalty box that have helmet covers on their helmets must keep the helmet covers visible to the referees at all times while in the box.[/rule]

Mine in Bold.  And that's only the standard practices doc not the rules.

The only related rule I can find is this

[rule]7.3.6 - Penalized skaters may only remove their mouth guard once they are seated in the penalty box. No other equipment may be removed while a skater is in the designated penalty box area (see Section 6.13.15).[/rule]

Me in Bold again.

[rule]6.13.15 - A penalized skater who removes her safety equipment in the penalty box. A penalized skater may remove her mouth guard only after she is seated in the penalty box. Merely adjusting safety equipment while in the penalty box is not to be penalized.[/rule]
Minor penalty.

When I've HR, I ensure that I cover keeping panties clearly visible in the penalty box in the pre game capt/alt talk.

I used to penalise this but FNZebra showed me different in this post
http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=7.msg31971#msg31971
Title: Re: Skaters removing helmet covers in the box
Post by: Major Wood on December 26, 2011, 01:19:35 pm
Sorry I disagree.  There's nothing in the rules that state they have to have the panty on their helmet in the sin bin.  There's also nothing that specifically prohibits the removal of panties as they are neither listed as uniform or safety gear.

Please refer to it as a penalty box. You are an official, not a fan or announcer. Calling it a sin bin implies that you think the skater did something wrong. We don't pass judgment.
Title: Re: Skaters removing helmet covers in the box
Post by: FNZebra on December 26, 2011, 04:54:56 pm
If a situation is not already written into the "No Impact/No Penalty," "Minor," or "Major" category, for the sake of the game, please do not put it there.

Uhhh, ...
Quote
The following penalties are addressed in detail in the sections listed below. These sections hold specific examples that are to be followed explicitly. Illegal actions not specified below must be penalized using these specifics as guiding examples.

Slight correcton. The rules are not meant to be all-inclusive. Refs do have some small degree of discretion; that said, err toward the side of a lesser consequence when you venture into the uncharted territory of the gray zones. And don't just make stuff up -- you should have a very well reasoned defense for your decision. "Because I said so" should be right out.

In this particular situation, be certain to make the request that helmet covers in the box always remain visible to officials, during the pre-bout meeting. Follow the first offense during the bout with a reminder warning to both benches. It is unlikely to need a follow up after that.
Title: Re: Skaters removing helmet covers in the box
Post by: Rocktimus Prime on December 26, 2011, 10:09:53 pm


In this particular situation, be certain to make the request that helmet covers in the box always remain visible to officials, during the pre-bout meeting. Follow the first offense during the bout with a reminder warning to both benches. It is unlikely to need a follow up after that.


I find this procedure to be frighteningly sensible.
Title: Re: Skaters removing helmet covers in the box
Post by: Cliquework on January 02, 2012, 04:59:20 pm
Interesting anecdote to this:

I once removed a "fifth" blocker at the start of a jam. At the end of the short jam, the skater who was in the box asked me why I removed the fourth blocker, as she was a jammer. She didn't have her panty on while in the box, confirmed with box manager. Looked like five blockers to me when counting pre-jam.

This is why we keep them on. No penalty, but still penalized. Sometimes it hurts the offender as well.
Title: Re: Skaters removing helmet covers in the box
Post by: stick it on March 21, 2012, 12:43:10 am
If the helmet cover is removed and is out of sight whilst the Jammer is in the penalty box it becomes the issue of referee's, not nso. Pre bout meetings are where this should be covered. If a jammer was to drop their star cover whilst going to the penalty box, again this is a referee issue. Dont look for/create grey matter, Its black and white!
Title: Re: Skaters removing helmet covers in the box
Post by: Eject You Later on March 21, 2012, 12:51:42 am
If a jammer was to drop their star cover whilst going to the penalty box, again this is a referee issue. Dont look for/create grey matter, Its black and white!

What is her jammer referee doing during this time?  They should be watching her in the penalty box, looking for penalties (removing safety equipment, looking for other players or coaches entering the box to speak with her, or her leaving the penalty box early) as well as looking for her to leave.

The point being, her jammer ref knows she is the jammer.  If she removes her cover and her team fields a second jammer, then the jammer ref knows this and can send that extra jammer off.  If the jammer removes her cover and re-enters play without it on (ie., she dropped it), then she re-enters as an inactive jammer.  But she is still the jammer.

If the jammer referee is not watching her then that is the jammer referee's mistake.  They need to be watching the jammer in the box.
Title: Re: Skaters removing helmet covers in the box
Post by: ShoNuff on March 21, 2012, 01:45:07 am
Be careful of getting into a this is a ref issue this an NSO issue mindset.  The officials are a team and if they aren't working together, things don't work.

The status of every skater on the track is being monitored by both referees and NSOs in a variety of ways.  A jammer without her cover on in the box should be caught by her jam ref, the lineup tracker tracking her team and the penalty box staff.  It's all of their jobs to make sure they all know that that skater is the jammer and they all should back each other up so that when something does slip through the cracks, it gets caught right away.


If the helmet cover is removed and is out of sight whilst the Jammer is in the penalty box it becomes the issue of referee's, not nso. Pre bout meetings are where this should be covered. If a jammer was to drop their star cover whilst going to the penalty box, again this is a referee issue. Dont look for/create grey matter, Its black and white!


Title: Re: Skaters removing helmet covers in the box
Post by: The Gorram Reaver on March 21, 2012, 02:07:18 am
Be careful of getting into a this is a ref issue this an NSO issue mindset.  The officials are a team and if they aren't working together, things don't work.

The status of every skater on the track is being monitored by both referees and NSOs in a variety of ways.  A jammer without her cover on in the box should be caught by her jam ref, the lineup tracker tracking her team and the penalty box staff.  It's all of their jobs to make sure they all know that that skater is the jammer and they all should back each other up so that when something does slip through the cracks, it gets caught right away.

If the helmet cover is removed and is out of sight whilst the Jammer is in the penalty box it becomes the issue of referee's, not nso. Pre bout meetings are where this should be covered. If a jammer was to drop their star cover whilst going to the penalty box, again this is a referee issue. Dont look for/create grey matter, Its black and white!


Not to mention that there are some times when a Jammer Ref may not be looking directly at her/his Jammer.  At some point, that Jammer Ref will have to ensure the Penalty Trackers have received the penalty information for that Jammer.  At some point, that Jammer Ref will need to communicate the status of her/his Jammer to the other Jammer Ref.  And any number of other things that may crop up to keep the Jammer Ref from having her/his full attention on the Jammer who is in the penalty box.

Bottom line, if the Jammer Ref couldn't rely on NSOs to relay pertinent information to her/him when necessary (such as a Jammer removing a helmet cover while in the box), then Jammer refs would never have time to look at their Jammers because they'd be spending all of their time doing the jobs of the other nine to 20 people on the crew.

Don't just fill a spot, be a part of a crew.
Title: Re: Skaters removing helmet covers in the box
Post by: molotovmuffin on June 04, 2012, 08:47:44 pm
So, what is being said is that the NSO can not asses the penaly or lack there of...of not having on a helmet cover?

What if a pivot comes into the box post jam and removes the cover and tosses it to her team before the onset of the next jam? 
Title: Re: Skaters removing helmet covers in the box
Post by: Stegoscorus on June 04, 2012, 10:42:42 pm
Ideally, the Lineup Tracker will notice this and get a ref's attention.  The ref can instruct the skater to keep her Pivot cover on her helmet.  Penalty box staff could do the same thing, if they saw it happen.

If no one can get a ref's attention in time, and no refs otherwise notice, it's one of those crappy situations where they'll probably just get away with it.  If there are no star pass attempts, it's little-to-no impact.  Sucks, but not the worst thing that can happen. 
Title: Re: Skaters removing helmet covers in the box
Post by: FNZebra on June 05, 2012, 12:58:16 am
Speaking with my pink shirt on as PBstaff:

If I saw that happen in my box (tee hee), I would be flagging the attention of the HR or an OPR. The penalty is to be served by the player AND the position, and if the Pivot goes to the box, a Pivot should not be on the track while one is serving.

The PB staff and the Lineup Trackers should be working as a team to confirm who should be serving, and in which position.

If this happened between the jams, as the PBMgr, I'd try to approach the HR with the Pivot's color, number(circled) on my whiteboard, and explain what I saw.

Likewise, if a Pivot is in the box, and a Pivot for that team is on the track after the jamstart whistle, we, the PBstaff, are going to be hooting and hollering like a band of chimpanzees to get the attention of one of the OPRs, to try to get the extra skater off the track.