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Non-Skating Officials => General NSO Discussion => Topic started by: Grief Eriksson on January 20, 2012, 04:35:45 pm

Title: "Seated" in the Penalty Box
Post by: Grief Eriksson on January 20, 2012, 04:35:45 pm
I know the topic of Standing in the Box has been discussed several time. Here is a new twist of sorts.

A ref recently explained to me that if a skater comes into the box and misses a seat entirely, you should still begin timing immediately, as they are technically seated (just on the floor, not in one of the supplied chairs). He implied that the chairs are not really necessary to the equation, although I am assuming box staff should be 'encouraging' that the skater does indeed get up into a seat. (This also means, technically, that if a skater sits in the opposing team's seat timing should begin - they are sitting in the box area, which is what the ref stressed.)

I am curious of other people's opinion on this - our SOP has always been begin timing when the skaters butt hits a seat on her team's side.

Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: "Seated" in the Penalty Box
Post by: FNZebra on January 20, 2012, 05:03:27 pm
If the meat's in the seat,
the timing may complete.
Title: Re: "Seated" in the Penalty Box
Post by: Eject You Later on January 20, 2012, 05:09:31 pm
If the meat's in the seat,
the timing may complete.

(except for the final 10 seconds...)

;)
Title: Re: "Seated" in the Penalty Box
Post by: The Doc on January 20, 2012, 05:13:42 pm
Im typing from my phone, please bear with me

My opinion is the skater must sit in a chair that is marked for the possistion she is playing, (blocker or jammer) if a blocker sits in the jammer chair, the   time does not start. I seem to remember that you must have chairs in the box for skaters, and if    skater passes the box they must go all the way around the track.
Title: Re: "Seated" in the Penalty Box
Post by: Shaun Ketterman on January 20, 2012, 05:27:03 pm
My opinion is the skater must sit in a chair that is marked for the possistion she is playing, (blocker or jammer) if a blocker sits in the jammer chair, the   time does not start.

If the player sits in a chair in the penalty box, her penalty time should begin.  The penalty timer should then direct her to a more appropriate chair if she isn't in the right one.  If a player isn't in a chair at all, her penalty time should not begin until she is in one.  

[rule]7.3.3 The penalty clock starts when the skater is seated in the penalty box (with exceptions noted in Section 7.3.2.3). The penalty clock only runs when the jam clock is running. If a penalty spans multiple jams, the penalty clock will stop between jams.[/rule]

7.3.3 says that time begins when the player is seated, nothing more.  Of course for the sake of order in the box, players must sometimes be moved to the most appropriate seat at direction of the NSO, but once she is seated in the box, the penalty time should begin running.
Title: Re: "Seated" in the Penalty Box
Post by: Stegoscorus on January 20, 2012, 09:01:25 pm


If the player sits in a chair in the penalty box, her penalty time should begin.  The penalty timer should then direct her to a more appropriate chair if she isn't in the right one.  If a player isn't in a chair at all, her penalty time should not begin until she is in one.  

This.

The chairs being designated for positions is not in the rules.  It's just something that makes it convenient for officials to know whether a Jammer's in the box.  Do it just like Shaun says.
Title: Re: "Seated" in the Penalty Box
Post by: Grief Eriksson on January 20, 2012, 10:22:43 pm


The chairs being designated for positions is not in the rules.  It's just something that makes it convenient for officials to know whether a Jammer's in the box.  Do it just like Shaun says.


That seemed to be his point of argument - since the chairs aren't in the rules, he seemed to think sitting anywhere in the box area sufficed.

(For the record, I'm in line with the general thinking that the seat is the important bit - I just want something to base that opinion on when it comes up again.)
Title: Re: "Seated" in the Penalty Box
Post by: Shaun Ketterman on January 20, 2012, 11:36:02 pm
That seemed to be his point of argument - since the chairs aren't in the rules, he seemed to think sitting anywhere in the box area sufficed. (For the record, I'm in line with the general thinking that the seat is the important bit - I just want something to base that opinion on when it comes up again.)

The definition of the penalty box:

[rule]2.7 PENALTY BOX
2.7.1 Benches or seats must be provided to make up the "Penalty Box." This is the designated area where penalty time will be served. The benches or seats must be capable of accommodating a total of six players (three from each team).
2.7.2 The penalty benches must be situated in an easily accessible, neutral area close to the track. Teams may use separate penalty boxes.[/rule]

What's the main feature of the penalty box as described?  The rest can be easily and clearly inferred.  This is one of those situations where the concept is so basic, defining it further becomes a little silly, honestly.  "Seated" in 7.3.3 means seated in a provided chair.  No further explanation is needed. 

Title: Re: "Seated" in the Penalty Box
Post by: Grief Eriksson on January 21, 2012, 05:27:45 pm
Thank you! I was wondering if I could use 2.7 as my response.
Title: Re: "Seated" in the Penalty Box
Post by: ShoNuff on January 24, 2012, 02:08:36 am
The specific nature of the penalty box seems to be a venue specific decision.

At North Central this year, oversight told us to only begin timing when a skater sat in a seat designated for their team and position.  So a jamme rin a blocker seat did not begin her time and was to be informed that we could not begin timing her penalty until she was properly seated.  As Judge Knots pointed out in another thread that discussed tournament rulings, that statement was specific only to that tournament and was not a statement from the Rules Committee.  But it does indicate that there is a sense in at least some of the committee members who oversee WFTDA gameplay that in fact that is the proper structure for the penalty box.

In general, I prefer to view the penalty box as three seats for each team, and two different boxes that happen to be next to each other.  So a skater has to sit in one of the seats for their team, but the jammer or blocker seat designation is an administrative nicety rather than a rule and we just ask them to move after their time is started.

I've also had referees not happy with that idea and insisting that all 6 seats are simply seats and once hte skater sits in any of the 6 seats their time should start and then they should be asked to move to one of the seats that will make it easier for the referees to understand the box population at a glance.

As far as I can tell, 2.7.2 allows the box to be broken up by team or not, so it would be a venue decision which seats a skater has to be in to be considered seated.

Assigning seats to individual positions seems like a stretch to me, but that tournament ruling we received leaves me wondering if the WFTA stance is essentially that a venue decision can break the seats up and assign them as specifically or non-specifically as is desired.  I have no official ruling or statement to back this up.
Title: Re: "Seated" in the Penalty Box
Post by: Riff Reff on January 24, 2012, 12:15:57 pm
Quote
all 6 seats are simply seats and once the skater sits in any of the 6 seats their time should start and then they should be asked to move to one of the seats that will make it easier for the referees to understand the box population at a glance.

This. Marking the seats is just for our convenience. Everything else you're at a loss to explain your practice and then the rules do not back you up. Make sure the procedure is mentioned in the officials' and captains' meetings and you're fine.
Title: Re: "Seated" in the Penalty Box
Post by: CircuitBroad on February 24, 2012, 07:54:14 pm
So, if the venue has 2 separate penalty boxes, would a skater's time start if she went to the wrong team's box?

What about when using 2 lines of no return? 

-Circuit Broad
Title: Re: "Seated" in the Penalty Box
Post by: ShoNuff on February 24, 2012, 08:31:57 pm
The standard practices for penalty box state:

[rule]As a skater is coming into the box, how is she to know the appropriate seat in which to sit?

The Penalty Box Official shall signal the appropriate side and/or seat as the skater skates into the box[/rule]

This makes a pretty clear statement that it is possible to assign a side and/or a seat to a skater but at the same time does not require a seat to be assigned to a skater.

I really think you need to view the penalty box with the same flexibility that 2.1 gives in marking the track.  WFTDA has always made a big point of trying not to impose major physical restrictions on the venue for a bout and as part of the physical infrastructure of the track, the penalty box is kept similarly vague in its definition.

So you can see the box as 6 seats and they are all the same.  You can see the box as three seats for each team.  You can see the box as 2 seats for green blockers, 1 seat for green jammer, 2 seats for black blockers and one seat for black jammers.  And just because you want to, you can assign seats to individual blockers so the first blocker coming in must sit in the seat for the first blocker to enter of their color and the second blocker in must sit in the seat for the second blocker of their color to come in.  You just have to make sure that nature of any seat restrictions are clearly stated before the bout so all players understand what constitutes legal box entry.

Title: Re: "Seated" in the Penalty Box
Post by: Stegoscorus on February 25, 2012, 04:56:39 am
While Standard Practices are followed at WFTDA tournaments, and used widely otherwise, they're not the rules.  They're good guides on procedures, though.

So yes, it helps things run smoothly to direct skaters where to sit.  But you don't need to take that to mean if a blue skater sits in the red side of the box, she shouldn't be timed.  We're there to facilitate the game, not punish skaters.  If she's in the box (any seat), time her and ask her to scoot over. 

I wouldn't recommend using two Point of No Return Lines, just to keep it simple for everyone. 
Title: Re: "Seated" in the Penalty Box
Post by: Technical Difficulties on February 25, 2012, 07:19:08 pm
My league designates 2 (interchangable) blocker seats and 1 jammer seat for each team, and doesn't start timing until the skater is sitting in an/the appropriate seat.  This has the advantage that it's very clear when the penalty box manager has to waive off an arriving skater when there's no room: both blocker seats she could use are occupied.  This is the way it's always been with our league, but it sounds like a good thing to put on the list to explain to the captains (and any new penalty box folks) should we host a mixer/scrimmage/non-intramural bout.

Title: Re: "Seated" in the Penalty Box
Post by: ShoNuff on February 27, 2012, 02:59:48 pm
I'm curious if anyone has asked their skaters how they think the box is arranged?

I'm used to seeing skaters being very careful to sit in not only the side of the box associated with their team but also to follow position labels on the seats when they are present whether or not we are enforcing them.

So I suspect a lot of teams assume that the chairs are very specficially assigned and don't seem to have much trouble with it.  I've had far more skaters grumble about being told that they have to actually stand to be considerd standing than I've ever heard complain that a seat was marked for the other team or for a position other than their own.  They seem to take the assigned seats as a given.
Title: Re: "Seated" in the Penalty Box
Post by: Stegoscorus on February 27, 2012, 04:01:59 pm
I don't think sitting in the wrong seat is a common problem at all.  It's good to be consistent in how we handle it when it does happen, but I hardy ever see it. 
Title: Re: "Seated" in the Penalty Box
Post by: Riff Reff on February 27, 2012, 05:27:14 pm
Quote
I'm curious if anyone has asked their skaters how they think the box is arranged?

At every captains' pre-bout meeting you should talk about team benches, penalty box location and if they switch benches that you might (or might not) switch the seats in the box as well. At least that is on my check list.