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Non-Skating Officials => General NSO Discussion => Topic started by: ShoNuff on April 30, 2012, 05:23:54 am

Title: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
Post by: ShoNuff on April 30, 2012, 05:23:54 am
A skater arrives at box and is seated.

A referee is clearly visible to the box staff waving her back onto the track and telling her she has reported in error.  The skater is not paying attention to the referee and clearly has not realized she is being directed to return to the track.

Is it appropriate for the penalty box staff to cease timing her since they know she has not earned a penalty and then inform her that they are not timing her penalty since she does not have one?


We were positive she did not owe time in the box, but weren't sure if informing her that she could leave would be seen as a reasonable repetition of the referee's directions or if her failure to pay attention to the bout would mean that our prompting her would be moving into the realm of coaching the skater.  As it was, we didn't say anything and it wasn't until several other members of her team were yelling to get her attention that she finally looked up and realized what was going on.

With the directions to the skater being very clear both in the hand signals and in the vocals from the referee, was the skater receiving all the direction she reasonably had a right to and any further direction would be coaching?

If it would have been coaching in this situation, is there a case where the communication from the referee is less clear that it would become reasonable for the bench staff to inform the skater that they do not owe penalty time and have reported in error?
Title: Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
Post by: Insane Troll Logic on April 30, 2012, 07:04:45 am
Is it appropriate for the penalty box staff to cease timing her since they know she has not earned a penalty and then inform her that they are not timing her penalty since she does not have one?

Yes, just like I would tell a skater that I had stopped timing her penalty if she didn't stand, a skater in the penalty box always has the right to know when she is not being timed and why. But what I'd actually do is get her attention and point her to the ref.
Title: Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
Post by: Darkjester on April 30, 2012, 01:04:15 pm
I wouldn't say "Go back on the track"  as that could be considered coaching.
But I'm totally with  ITL on direction her attention to the Referee directing her back onto the track.
I 'might' say , if it were clear to me "I'm not timing you, you are not serving a penalty."  As that is not telling the skater 'what' to do, only what you are doing or in this case, not doing.
Title: Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
Post by: Eject You Later on April 30, 2012, 01:18:30 pm
In the few times in which I was unable to get a skater's attention to return to the track, I have gone to the penalty box directly and told her she is released.

I would greatly prefer, for both the expediency and for my not having to skate from the infield to the penalty box, that the box staff releases her.

As to what to say... The referee verbal cue is, "Color/number, return to the track."  I see no reason why the penalty box staff are unable to repeat this.

The only caveat to this should be obvious... make sure you verify which skater is supposed to return.  :)  Maybe point to the skater first, receive the nod, then release her.
Title: Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
Post by: SeerSin on April 30, 2012, 03:58:03 pm
Instructing a skater to stay/return to the track is in the Verbal Cues document, it's not coaching.
Title: Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
Post by: ShoNuff on April 30, 2012, 04:22:19 pm
The problem that's nagging me on this is that if a skater does not pay attention to a command to report the penalty box, eventually I didn't hear you ceases to be an excuse and an insubordination is going to be issued.  Yes, referees give the skater a lot of chances to hear and respond to the command, but there reaches a point where it goes from worth another repetition of the command to the skater has had every chance that can be reasonably granted and allowing them to continue to disobey the command represents an illegal advantage to her team.

My concern is that in the situation here, the skater has ignored communications that are obvious enough that she is the only person anywhere near her that has not clearly heard the command.  If ignoring the command was penalizable by an insubordination, the referee would have been more than justified in issuing the penalty to prevent her from seizing an illegal advantage for her team.  But her failing to respond to the command gave her opponents an advantage rather than her team.  Am I improperly taking that advantage away from her opponents by trying to find more ways to let her know she is being oblivious to an important command that is beneficial to her and her team rather than one that is detrimental.

Or am I vastly over thinking this situation and I should be just focussing on referee is trying to communicate with skater, skater is oblivious, echo the communication from closer in so skater hears it.
Title: Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
Post by: Stegoscorus on April 30, 2012, 05:01:15 pm
Eh, I wouldn't go that far.  Insubordination is for failure to comply with an official's instructions.  Yes, I guess "return to the track" is an instruction, but it's more about communicating information with the skater (you don't have a penalty/that was a minor) than a need for her to do something.  If she doesn't return to the track, the impact is that her team is skating needlessly short.  That's not something we penalize, or really give a hoot about, so Insubordination isn't appropriate here.

I'm with the others, if you're positive of what the ref is signalling, go ahead and release her from the box with the standard verbal cue (Return to the Track).

Title: Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
Post by: Darkjester on April 30, 2012, 06:25:09 pm
I'm with Stego and others.. No need to issue a Insubordination.. Her team is already skating down, and she's already a NOTT point; so in that aspect her team is already being punished for her not returning to the track. You (generalized you not specific) have already instructed her at this point "You are not being times as there is no penalty." So if another skater comes that maxes the penalty cap, you can instruct her again.

I'm with Eject, I too have had to physically skate from infield to PB to tell the skater she wasn't supposed to be there because she didn't catch the "Return to the Track" direction.

Title: Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
Post by: ShoNuff on April 30, 2012, 06:51:35 pm
I wasn't advocating an insubordination penalty I was trying to create an analogy that at this point I'm thinking I can confdiently say was not a good analogy.

And I think the answer I'm looking for is that I'm thinking way to hard on this and creating a problem that doesn't exist.  So I'll quit trying to create a problem in order to justify a solution.

Thank you all for kicking me out of the little mental loop I'd talked myself into.   :)
Title: Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
Post by: bjmacke on May 01, 2012, 01:03:04 am
My instinct would be to be agnostic on the skating officials insistence that she return to the track. The "return to the track" signal is directed at the skater, not the PBO.

The problem that arises with focusing on this errant skater in the box is that it's a distraction to treat her differently than any other person reporting to the box. If she sits a minute for a penalty that didn't exist, that's really not our concern. If she screams bloody murder because she wasted a minute in the box; the onus was on her for ignoring a verbal and visual cue from a skating official.

Harsh, sure, but the alternative leads me to worry about wasting cycles on a skater that's really not breaking any rules nor creating an unfair advantage for her team.
Title: Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
Post by: Stegoscorus on May 01, 2012, 02:12:46 am
Thank you all for kicking me out of the little mental loop I'd talked myself into.   :)

We all do that.   :P  Good job utilizing your team to bring you back to earth!

And a good trick for making sure you are both talking about the same skater, for any communication from the refs to the box, is to hold your hand over her head with a "?" look on your face.  I would think any ref would understand and respond with a nod or head shake.
Title: Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
Post by: Eject You Later on May 05, 2012, 06:58:47 pm
The problem that arises with focusing on this errant skater in the box is that it's a distraction to treat her differently than any other person reporting to the box.

Why has she reported to the box in error?  Was it because an official issued a major and then either had their call over turned, or over turned their own call?  Was it because 2 calls were made very close together, so the skater heard a whistle from another official, but then heard her number called and left the track?  Was it because the official was very loud in the minor call and, not wanting to pick up an insubordination, the skater simply left the track?

The reason she is treated differently than any other skater reporting to the box is that she is doing so in error.  She should not be there.

Quote
Harsh, sure, but the alternative leads me to worry about wasting cycles on a skater that's really not breaking any rules nor creating an unfair advantage for her team.

The problem is that she should not be in the penalty box.  By sitting in the box she is taking the seat that a penalized skater is unable to fill.  If she believes that she has been penalized (as opposed to quitting in the middle of the jam) then her team is being penalized, even inadvertently, for no reason.

Things happen.  Many skaters believe that if they do not go immediately to the box when a penalty is given to them that they will pick up a second minute for insubordination.  While that is not accurate, I also do not feel it is correct to let a skater "self report" to the penalty box if she does not have a penalty.  Mistakes happen and this is easy to correct.  If I am in the middle of calling penalties, defining the pack, etc, then it may take me 10-15 seconds to be able to pull her from the penalty box, but I'm going to pull her out.
Title: Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
Post by: bjmacke on May 05, 2012, 11:50:26 pm
Understandable, though realize I'm speaking from a PBO perspective and not a ref. The OP asked the question of whether or not it'd be inappropriate to not time a skater in the box; and I would advise against such things because it would be treating that skater differently because you (as a PBO) think she should get treated differently.

When this has come up with me in the the past, I am inclined to time the skater and if the infield ref continues to signal to the skater in the box to verbally mention it to the skater ("Black 26, I think that ref is trying to get your attention...") but do not tell her to leave. If she and the ref figure out she doesn't belong there, then I'm more than happy to wipe the slate and not insist she left early.

The worst case scenario would be that if the PBO got confused and released a skater that belonged there. That's the more dangerous outcome because a skater won't serve her full penalty time because we screwed up. The alternative, a skater who doesn't belong there who isn't on the track due to her own error; that doesn't seem as bad in comparison.
Title: Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
Post by: FNZebra on May 06, 2012, 12:36:20 am
The worst case scenario would be that if the PBO got confused and released a skater that belonged there. That's the more dangerous outcome because a skater won't serve her full penalty time because we screwed up. The alternative, a skater who doesn't belong there who isn't on the track due to her own error; that doesn't seem as bad in comparison.

If a PBO instructs a skater to leave, there is no additional penalty tacked on, per 6.13.25. But the PBM can still have that skater report for the rest of the original penalty to be served. Ungood, but recoverable; it should only happen when a ref is frantically signalling for that skater to be returned, though, and the PB crew has confirmed it should be that skater who is to be released. Then the PB crew is absolved of guilt.  :)
Title: Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
Post by: Eject You Later on May 06, 2012, 12:42:02 am
The OP asked the question of whether or not it'd be inappropriate to not time a skater in the box; and I would advise against such things because it would be treating that skater differently because you (as a PBO) think she should get treated differently.

Question:  How do you know how long to time her penalty, if you aren't looking at the referee that sent her to the box?

If she has a 2 minute penalty to serve, the referee is going to be doing the proper hand signal at the penalty box staff.  Are you suggesting that the penalty box staff treat her as a regular 1 minute penalty and release her after a minute?  Or are you going to treat her differently because of what the referee is communicating to you?

I assume you will time her for 2 minutes.  I fail to see any difference between that and releasing her if she has gone to the box in error, and the referee is communicating that to you.
Title: Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
Post by: bjmacke on May 06, 2012, 04:25:58 pm
I'm going to assume you aren't questioning my understanding of hand signals, and in kind I won't question yours. There's a difference between signaling a multi-minute penalty to a PBO and signaling to a skater that she should return to the track, and I'll leave it at that.

As for the original point of whether or not a PBO should stop timing an errant skater sitting in the box, my steadfast position is that it's a bad idea to do so. That's completely independent of any efforts and machinations we exert to convince her that she shouldn't be in the box. My reason for believing you shouldn't stop timing her is that, after 50 seconds, she's hopefully going to stand and that will free up the seat at that time. If you stop timing her then you can't know when that failsafe will happen.

So I hope that's a decent excuse for why you shouldn't stop timing an errant skater. I'd really love to understand why it's a good idea to stop timing her, because I'm not seeing one.
Title: Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
Post by: The Gorram Reaver on May 06, 2012, 05:46:36 pm
I'd really love to understand why it's a good idea to stop timing her, because I'm not seeing one.

Because if she has reported to the box in error & you are not timing her penalty, that seat is available and one of her teammates may sit in it.  You don't need to, and should not, wait for the skater who reported in error to stand because she's not supposed to be there, so you're not timing her and she can leave whenever she chooses.
Title: Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
Post by: Stegoscorus on May 06, 2012, 06:45:53 pm
I gotta say, I'm on the side of timing anyone and everyone who sits in the box.  If you didn't need to after all, no harm done, eh? 

It's not a PBO's job to figure out whether she should be there and why.  If the box is receiving communication to release her, obviously pay attention to it and be as sure as you can before taking any action.  But Lordisa, start timing her first.

This opinion comes directly from experiencing a PBO who thought a skater chose to sit in the box because she was injured (the medics ran over to check on her due to whatever hit had happened right before that).  But she was, in fact, serving a penalty, and when the jam ended, no one had any idea how long she'd served.  If she was addressing an injury in the box, that would be wackadoo indeed.  But why not time her just in case?
Title: Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
Post by: Darkjester on May 06, 2012, 09:18:18 pm
I actually agree with Stego on this one.

Best case scenario, the refs get the PBO/Skaters attention and get the skater out of the box.

Worst case scenario the skater spends up to a 1 minute in the box anyways if nobody notices.
Title: Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
Post by: The Gorram Reaver on May 07, 2012, 01:03:43 am
I gotta say, I'm on the side of timing anyone and everyone who sits in the box.  If you didn't need to after all, no harm done, eh?  

It's not a PBO's job to figure out whether she should be there and why.  If the box is receiving communication to release her, obviously pay attention to it and be as sure as you can before taking any action.  But Lordisa, start timing her first.

This opinion comes directly from experiencing a PBO who thought a skater chose to sit in the box because she was injured (the medics ran over to check on her due to whatever hit had happened right before that).  But she was, in fact, serving a penalty, and when the jam ended, no one had any idea how long she'd served.  If she was addressing an injury in the box, that would be wackadoo indeed.  But why not time her just in case?

So, if you're a PBO and you're timing a Jammer's penalty, and the other Jammer approaches the box to serve a penalty despite the fact that her Jammer Ref is signaling her to remain on the track, you would release the first Jammer?  Or when that Jammer leaves the box without being directed because you, as the PBO, saw the opposing Jammer Ref signal the second Jammer to remain on the track, would you act as if the first Jammer's penalty is not ending?

Remember, the original post was not a question about what should be done when we think a skater might have reported to the box in error, it was a question of what can be done when it is completely clear that the skater is reporting in error.  Would any of you honestly hold a skater in the box when a referee is clearly directing that skater to return to the track?  And if so, why?  And if you wouldn't prevent the skater from leaving the box because it is clear an official is directing her back to the track, why would you time a penalty instead of telling her you are not timing her penalty because she is being directed back to the track?
Title: Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
Post by: bjmacke on May 07, 2012, 03:00:27 am
Just to reiterate - starting a timer and trying to correct an errant trip to the box are independent actions. You time the skater as if she belongs there as a precaution in the event she actually does belong there and the infield ref is actually in error. Heresy, I know, but consider this scenario:

Black 26 reports to the box and takes a seat, the PBO starts timing her penalty. On the infield the call goes out of "why is black 26 in the box?" and no one knows why so an IPR or the HR starts motioning for her to come back on the track. The PBO notices this and tells black 26, "I think the IPR is trying to get your attention." She acknowledges this and remains in the box. The IPR/HR persists and either continues to signal to her to return to the track, or even skates to the box to tell her she doesn't have a penalty.

Meanwhile, in corner two, an OPR is relaying a back block minor to the OWB who then relays it to the infield. The wrangler (or PT) calls it as her fourth minor.

Turns out she didn't report to the box in error, she did it pre-emptively because she knew the back block was her fourth minor. So does the PBO start timing her penalty at the moment her butt hit the seat or when we, as a ref crew, figure out she actually belonged there?
Title: Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
Post by: The Gorram Reaver on May 07, 2012, 04:10:10 am
Turns out she didn't report to the box in error, she did it pre-emptively because she knew the back block was her fourth minor. So does the PBO start timing her penalty at the moment her butt hit the seat or when we, as a ref crew, figure out she actually belonged there?

Believe or not, I'm going to go with "No, because she shouldn't be there."  Skaters are not in the box until directed there by a referee.  If a skater removes herself from play for what she believes will be her fourth minor, she is not being "extra helpful", she's creating administrative problems that take our time & attention away from all the other things we're supposed to be doing.  And if it turns out to never actually be her fourth minor (it wasn't her penalty, it wasn't her fourth, etc.) she's there for no reason.  Honestly, I've had to deal with trying to figure out why a skater is in the box because somebody thought, incorrectly, they were getting themselves off for their fourth minor too many times to advocate that a skater should report to the box & sit in a seat any time other than when a referee is directing her to do so.  And I also think that, as a ref, if I signal a skater to return to the track and she fails to do so, it is well within reason for me to ask her if she is removing herself from the jam, because until someone directs her to the penalty box, that is exactly what she is doing - removing herself from play.

I'm not saying running a timer as a precautionary measure while that skater is seated isn't a wise course of action.  But I also very firmly believe the skater should be told that her penalty is not being timed because a referee is directing her to return to the track.  That way, if another skater from her team arrives the new skater can be told there is a seat available because (again) I'm not timing a penalty for the skater who is sitting there.

I guess I'm just so surprised to hear that there are those who don't think the penalty box staff should be working to assist the referees in communicating with a skater that she has not been sent to the box when a referee is very clearly indicating a skater should return to play.  We're all a crew, one big happy officiating team, and if we don't work together and help each other, we're only going to wind up creating more problems than helping each other find solutions.
Title: Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
Post by: HIM-roid on May 07, 2012, 04:31:44 am
I agree Reaver, the PBO should relay to the skater that the referee is motioning you back to the track. Even if she was suppose to report to the box due to a late reported penalty, the skater was RELEASED BY AN OFFICIAL, so no further penalties on that skater. That is a ref screw up and of course a skater isn't liable for an officials mistake. Of course this would be discussed in an OTO as to why the skater went to the box. I know if I sent her, I would ask why she was released? If I was the one who released her, I would own up to it and say I released her, so that was my mistake, apologize to the OPR and then send the skater back to the penalty box to serve her time. As you stated, WE are a TEAM. We are not perfect and we are going to make mistakes, but we also have the luxury of calling an OTO and get the situation straightened out. As for the penalty being reported late, well, there are numerous reasons why it could have happened. I know I have called multiple majors as an OPR and had to track a skater down to get her to remove herself off the track, which can take a lap or two and I didn't have the luxury to stop and drop off the penalty and the OWB didn't hear me as I dropped it off as I was skating by. I am sure their are other reasons why this could happen, I can only speak of the one situation that I have experienced.
Title: Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
Post by: Stegoscorus on May 07, 2012, 04:38:55 am
I guess I'm just so surprised to hear that there are those who don't think the penalty box staff should be working to assist the referees in communicating with a skater that she has not been sent to the box when a referee is very clearly indicating a skater should return to play.  We're all a crew, one big happy officiating team, and if we don't work together and help each other, we're only going to wind up creating more problems than helping each other find solutions.

I don't think anyone's saying that at all.  We're saying 1. Skater sits, 2. Start watch, 3. Look up and see ref is signalling something at you.  If a ref is definitely signalling for her to return to the track, assist with that process.   
Title: Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
Post by: bjmacke on May 08, 2012, 12:23:00 am
Part of the reason for hashing this stuff out in (semi-)public places like Zebra Huddle and the WFTDA board is to try and find common ground on how to handle these kinds of scenarios. For me, I'm trying to better understand everyone's position is that if I am in a position of training a new PBO; they need to know how to handle this. And when they ask me for clarification on why things are done a certain way, it's very helpful to give them a reasonable explanation.

As of right now the only consensus on when you're supposed to stop timing a skater is if they fail to stand at 50 seconds. This is reasonable and makes sense because a PBO/PBM is making it very clear to them that if they don't stand that their time will not expire. Our underlying reason why is that it ensures that both teams are aware that a skater has less than ten seconds left on their penalty. To sit for the full 60 gives one team an unfair advantage because of the element of surprise.

Also remember that we, as officials, do not tell skaters to exit the box. This is very clear in the verbal cues, and it makes sense because we aren't telling skaters to do anything. At all. Refs do have the ability to direct a skater to return to the track, but even that's not telling them to do anything because we don't have an "or else" attached to it. Skaters returning to their benches intimate to the ref crew that they're taking themselves out of play, but the penalty box isn't the bench so reporting to the penalty box is not the act of taking themselves out of play.

So in the back of my head, as I imagine the operation of telling a skater she has no penalty and she's not being timed; then what? We'd suggested that this allows us to free up a spot for another skater, but where do you put her? Of course this then bleeds back into the first comment about skaters who don't stand. Do we do the same thing for those recalcitrant skaters?
Title: Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
Post by: The Gorram Reaver on May 08, 2012, 04:00:02 pm
o in the back of my head, as I imagine the operation of telling a skater she has no penalty and she's not being timed; then what? We'd suggested that this allows us to free up a spot for another skater, but where do you put her? Of course this then bleeds back into the first comment about skaters who don't stand. Do we do the same thing for those recalcitrant skaters?

You've told her she is not being timed.  What she does with that information is her responsibility.  Just as if you tell her that her penalty is done, or if you tell her you're not timing her penalty because she has failed to sit when she should be sitting or stand when she should be standing.  And eventually (hopefully very soon), the ref signaling her to return to the track should come over to the penalty box and tell her "[Color], [Number], return to the track, you have not been directed to the penalty box"; and if after being directly told that by a referee the skater still remains in the penalty box, the referee's very next words should be "[Color], [Number], are you removing yourself from play?"  And if she doesn't immediately return to play the referee should determine that she has removed herself from play and cannot return to the jam, and inform the Head Ref and the opposing Jammer Ref that she has removed herself from play.  Ideally, the ref doing this would also tell the box staff that the skater is not serving a penalty, she has removed herself from the jam and may not return to play.  At that point, she can be anywhere she wants as long as she's not on the track and not interfering with the jam in progress or the officials in any way.
Title: Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
Post by: SeerSin on May 08, 2012, 05:41:39 pm
A skater mistakenly taking herself to the box is not "removing herself from play". The reality is refs don't have time to leave the pack, skate to the box and directly inform a skater she needs to return to play. It's "color, #, return to the track" with the proper hand signal, repeat a couple times but don't let it distract from reffing the game. If she's still there at the end of the jam go get her, otherwise she'll return to play after one minute assuming the penalty timer doesn't see the ref waving her back on the track. The ref that called the penalty does need to ensure the trackers know it was a minor.

Mistaken box trips most frequently happen with newer skaters, those leagues who don't have the benefit of referees at their scrimmage practices, or due to miscommunication from referees. If it happens frequently it's reasonable for the head ref to take a quick official time out to address it with captains and the referees. Issuing any further penalty is overcalling, she's already been mistakenly penalized, let's not make it worse.
Title: Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
Post by: The Gorram Reaver on May 08, 2012, 09:31:08 pm
A skater mistakenly taking herself to the box is not "removing herself from play". The reality is refs don't have time to leave the pack, skate to the box and directly inform a skater she needs to return to play. It's "color, #, return to the track" with the proper hand signal, repeat a couple times but don't let it distract from reffing the game. If she's still there at the end of the jam go get her, otherwise she'll return to play after one minute assuming the penalty timer doesn't see the ref waving her back on the track. The ref that called the penalty does need to ensure the trackers know it was a minor.

Mistaken box trips most frequently happen with newer skaters, those leagues who don't have the benefit of referees at their scrimmage practices, or due to miscommunication from referees. If it happens frequently it's reasonable for the head ref to take a quick official time out to address it with captains and the referees. Issuing any further penalty is overcalling, she's already been mistakenly penalized, let's not make it worse.

For blockers, yes, that's not an inappropriate interpretation, although if I'm an OPR I'm inclined to continue my attempt to remove the skater from the box & let the other two OPRs shift their positioning accordingly because this is what we are taught to do on my crew - communicate with a skater until it is clear she has received & understands your communication.  I don't think it's unrealistic to follow this for all communication to a skater, not just those times when you're trying to remove her from play for a major penalty.

Likewise, if I'm a Jammer Ref, and my Jammer is not responding to the direction to remove herself from the box, you can make damned sure I'm not going to stop talking to her until I find out exactly what is going on because there are far too many problems associated with just ignoring the fact that she's ignoring me.
Title: Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
Post by: Darkjester on May 09, 2012, 11:55:06 am
Really the only 'wrong' answer here is to issue a IP or Insubordination penalty.

Timing vs. Not-Timing are still right answers, it just depends which makes more sense and is preferred by the HR of the bout. The intent and result is the same 'get the skater out of the box and back in the game .'

Title: Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
Post by: Arithmetrix on May 09, 2012, 07:09:07 pm
I really appreciate this thread as I honestly had not thought of this issue before and am looking to explore scenarios with our penalty box crew this week.

After reading this discussion I would lean towards having the PB timers start a stopwatch for the skater but tell her she is not being timed - that way her attention is brought to the situation without spelling it out explicitly, while removing the possibility of her serving far more than a normal penalty on top of the mistake. Of course, that is by its very nature dishonest so I'm not sure I am leaning in the right direction.  I will speak to our head ref about it.
Title: Re: Skater fails to notice referee removing them from the box
Post by: The Gorram Reaver on May 09, 2012, 11:18:34 pm
After reading this discussion I would lean towards having the PB timers start a stopwatch for the skater but tell her she is not being timed - that way her attention is brought to the situation without spelling it out explicitly, while removing the possibility of her serving far more than a normal penalty on top of the mistake. Of course, that is by its very nature dishonest so I'm not sure I am leaning in the right direction.  I will speak to our head ref about it.

You can be timing the amount of time a skater is spending in a seat without timing a penalty.  So timing the amount of time she sits, but also saying "I am not timing a penalty for you because you are being directed to return to the track," would be and accurate description of the situation since you're not timing a penalty, you're timing how long she is there without a penalty.  This allows you to both 1) do the 'just in case' timing, and 2) tell her you're not timing a penalty without being disingenuous.