Zebra Huddle™

Non-Skating Officials => General NSO Discussion => Topic started by: Rikard on December 11, 2012, 04:26:56 pm

Title: Have I got §7.3.10 right ?
Post by: Rikard on December 11, 2012, 04:26:56 pm
I'm just starting to get warm NSO'ing the Pen.Box, but I feel I need someone to tell me I understood §7.3.etc right, so this is a scenario I'm thinking about:

Red Jammer comes to the penalty box with a two-minute penalty. 20 seconds later Blue Jammer comes to the penalty box also with a two-minute penalty. What do I do?
If I read the rules by the letter I think I should act the same as if Blue Jammer had come to the box with only one minute, i.e. I release Blue Jammer back immediately and subtract one minute from Red Jammers penalty. §7.3.10 does not mention anything about the length of Blue Jammers penalty. And the same would apply if Red Jammer had 1m 40 sec left of a 2 minutes penalty and Blue Jammer came in with 3, 4 or 5 minutes penalty, however unlikely. It does feel a bit counter-intuitive and unfair though  :-\
Title: Re: Have I got §7.3.10 right ?
Post by: ShoNuff on December 11, 2012, 04:43:19 pm
Multiple multi-minute jammer penalties is messy but workable.

Your first scenario is correct.  Release blue jammer, remove one minute from red jammer's penalty.

For your second scenario, blue jammer also has multiple penalties to serve, it gets more interesting.

The key is that the jammer's must serve equal time for equal penalties.  But a penalty can be zero seconds long.

So red jammer is already in the box having served 20 seconds.  They still owe 40 seconds in the penalty they have begun serving and also a full minute on their other penalty.

Blue jammer comes in with two penalties and no penalty time served.

Both jammers have two penalties, they must serve equal time for those two penalties.

First thing you do is remove one minute from both jammers.  This is the normal 7.3.10 scenario and both jammers have now served a zero second penalty.  However, rather than reducing blue jammer's owed time to 0 seconds, she owes another minute so you can't actually release her.

Now you have the case where the original jammer is in the final minute of their multiple minutes so you are back to the base 7.3 scenario.  Release red jammer and hold blue jammer for 20 seconds so their time served matches that of the red jammer.

The net result, both teams have their jammer in the box for 20 seconds, both teams served two penalties.

Equal time for equal penalties is achieved and a jammerless jam is avoided.

Oh, and prepare for an official review.  :)
Title: Re: Have I got §7.3.10 right ?
Post by: Rikard on December 11, 2012, 05:01:52 pm
So basically, view each penalty minute as a separate penalty, let one unserved minute for one teams jammer equal one unserved minute for the other team, and then the situation as if the had one minute penalties? That's what I thought first (before re-reading rules) and what seems fair and logical. It's just that §7.3.10 doesn't mention the length of second jammers penalties, makes it seem it doesn't matter, then again §7.3 focuses on same amount of time for same penalty, which makes your solution most reasonable. I guess the 'root paragraphs' has higher priority than the 'branch paragraphs' if there sems to be any conflict, i.e §7.3 outweigh §7.3.10?
Has anyone had this situation in a bout or scrimmage? I have never seen it, but have a thought that it might with the new rules and with less experienced jammers.
Title: Re: Have I got §7.3.10 right ?
Post by: FNZebra on December 11, 2012, 06:02:07 pm
Hi Rikard, welcome to the Huddle.

For Jammer penalties, it may help to also think of them in pairs of equal time served (even if that time is zero). Your scenario is an edge case, but you may see it. I saw all the Jammer-less cases this past season.

The root paragraph of 7.3 (and the example) do provide the guiding philosophy for how to handle Jammer penalties. Everything falls from there.

What Sho has said is how to handle it. It's how he handled it at this year's Big5 (including Championships, where he was one of the PBMs in the final two bouts.). He has the experience to back up the correct answers regarding 7.3. He's lived it, and survived the Official Reviews that followed.  :)
Title: Re: Have I got §7.3.10 right ?
Post by: Rikard on December 11, 2012, 06:08:22 pm
Thank you both, this cleared it up for me!
Title: Re: Have I got §7.3.10 right ?
Post by: Megapickle on December 11, 2012, 07:26:53 pm
Seems we're all on the same page for how to actually handle this, but just to clarify:

Your first scenario is correct.  Release blue jammer, remove one minute from red jammer's penalty.

On this point, I suspect you misread the OP, Sho. In none of the Rikard's scenarios would Blue be released before Red. His only mention of a single-minute trip was how he thought (erroneously) he should treat a 2-min-vs-2-min swap.
Title: Re: Have I got §7.3.10 right ?
Post by: ShoNuff on December 11, 2012, 08:38:39 pm
Yeah, I did treat his first solution as a different scenario rather than as a different answer to his overall scenario.