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Older Rulesets => 3.x Rules => Rules Discussion 3.x => Topic started by: Crotch Rock-It on January 12, 2009, 11:00:12 pm

Title: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Crotch Rock-It on January 12, 2009, 11:00:12 pm
I had a question about multiplayer blocking in another unrelated thread, so I'll start a new thread about it here.  My question was in response to a post by Darkjester that mentioned multiplayer blocking.  I'll quote the original thread here for reference.

Quote from: Darkjester on January 11, 2009, 08:20:18 PM
Quote
The third one is the one what did it for me, during a 'wall drill' where two players build a wall and a third player has to break it, The wall duo ( one of them my wife) skated next to each other, extended their arms over and crossed them against the other persons chest forming an X in between the two of them. When I informed them that constituted an illegal multiplayer block ( players grabbing, holding, linking or joining..)

The captain who was at the back of the pack and not even in position to see what occurred wanted to argue that its NOT a multiplayer block, because they didn't 'link' arms. When I informed her it didn't have to be a link, just a joining, holding, or grabbing would suffice. She argued. When I grabbed the rulebook copy and read it to her, she asked if I had the definition for "joining".


Quote from: Crotch Rock-It on January 12, 2009, 01:05:48 PM
Quote
Since you've brought this subject up, I'd like to get some clarification on it, because the word "joining" is rather vague in the rules.

6.2.7 MULTIPLE-PLAYER BLOCKS

6.2.7.1 Skaters may not grab and hold each other’s uniform or equipment in a multiplayer block.
6.2.7.2 Skaters may not use their hands, arms, or legs in any grabbing, holding, linking or joining fashion in a multi-player block.
6.2.7.3 Touching and assisting teammates that does not create a wall to impede anopponent is not a multi-player block.

No impact/No penalty
6.2.7.4 Temporarily grabbing a teammate’s clothing, equipment or body part to push or pull, thereby adjusting the player’s speed or the teammate’s speed.
6.2.7.5 Touching, but not grabbing and/or holding, a teammate while blocking.

According to 6.2.7.5, touching a teammate while blocking is allowed, but according to 6.2.7.2, joining with a teammate while blocking is not allowed.  Obviously, joining is different from grabbing, holding, and linking, since it is mentioned separately.  It seems like the only contact left would be "touching," which is allowed.  So it seems to me like the captain had a valid point in questioning the definition of  joining, although she was quite rude about it, so I understand why you became upset.

If two blockers have their arms crossed over one another in an X (but not grabbing or holding each other) to prevent an opposing skater from going between them, is that considered legal "touching" or illegal "joining?"  If it is illegal joining, then what is the difference from touching?  The only thing I can think of would be: arms crossed = joining, while arms adjacent = touching.  But, as I said, the wording is vague, so it seems like a clarification from WFTDA is needed, unless there is a precedent that I am unaware of.


Quote from: Jessticular Fortitude on January 12, 2009, 01:12:39 PM
Quote
It really depends on what is going on around them at the time.

If they are touching/grabbing/doing something to completely take away the space between 2 bodies, but nobody is trying to go between them: no penalty.

If they are touching/grabbing/doing something to completely take away the space between 2 bodies, and someone is trying to go between them, and they release before 3 seconds: minor penalty

If they are touching/grabbing/doing something to completely take away the space between 2 bodies, someone is trying to go between them, but they continue to stay together for 3+ seconds: major penalty

In other words, the wording doesn't really matter. If they are joined in some fashion and an opposing skater is trying to go through, THAT's what matters, not really HOW they are joined. Touching, handholding, crossed arms, loving embraces all mean the same thing when it comes to multiplayer blocks.


Does that answer your question?


So...I'd like to get responses from other refs to see if Jessticular Fortitude is on the right track.  If she is, then it seems like two blockers skating shoulder-to-shoulder would also be considered a multiplayer block, right?  But wait, that goes against 6.2.7.5!   ???

Any experts on this rule that want to chime in would be appreciated! 
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Jessticular Fortitude on January 12, 2009, 11:27:12 pm
Yeah.. the more I think about it.. the more my answer doesn't sound right... so please, correct me!

I want to preface (after the fact...) my answer by saying that somebody I respect, but I can't remember who, told me that simply crossing arms to form an X (not necessarily linked- do you all get the distinction?) was considered a MP block if another skater was trying to get through. That may not be right now that I think about it, but that's what I based that response on.

Them rules ain't clear to me.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Darkjester on January 13, 2009, 01:41:18 am
My opinion on it matches the above. The difference between two skaters 'touching' shoulder to shoulder, is they aren't holding each other.

The 'arms crossed over at the elbows, touching each others chest' is a hold. Its would be similar to me holding a friend back from a fight by placing the flat of my hand on his chest and using my weight and momentum to keep him for moving forward. If I just 'leaned' against him shoulder to shoulder, I'm not holding him back or vice versa.

But, as stated in the first two words, its just my opinion.

I'm totally open for more experienced minds.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Johnny Zebra on January 13, 2009, 02:32:14 am
Ah . . . the multiplayer block. Okay, here goes:

6.2.7 MULTIPLE-PLAYER BLOCKS
6.2.7.1 Skaters may not grab and hold each other’s uniform or equipment in a multiplayer
block.
6.2.7.2 Skaters may not use their hands, arms, or legs in any grabbing, holding, linking or
joining fashion
in a multi-player block.
6.2.7.3 Touching and assisting teammates that does not create a wall to impede an
opponent is not a multi-player block.


The whole key to this is that bit in 6.2.7.3 about touching and creating a wall, and the bit in 6.2.7.2 about how the wall is created:

1. Are two players in sustained contact with each other in some way?
2. Is the specific effect of this contact that an opposing player is impeded?

If, and only if, the answer to both questions is an unqualified "yes" do you have a multiplayer block.

So, what's touching vs. grabbing, holding, linking or joining (especially joining)?

The key idea here is that the block is a sustained form of contact -- in the case of Darkjester's original question, the crossing of two players' arms in an "X" wall would be illegal, as it is sustained (and certainly the joining of the two players to create a wall) contact.

Regular shoulder to shoulder contact, on the other hand, is not sustained in the normal course of "skating close" -- but if two players were making a wall by explicitly pushing up against each other's shoulders while skating, that's a little more grey; I'd have to call it as it's happening, but my guiding principle would be whether their actions are a form of sustained contact that has the effect of creating a wall to impede an opponent.

Bottom line, though, if I were a skater, I wouldn't be trying to make anything that remotely resembles a wall other than by trying to skate nice and close, and elevator dooring anyone who tries to thread the needle.

~j.z.




Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Jessticular Fortitude on January 13, 2009, 03:17:31 am
The X I was talking about isn't one where the hands are on the other player, they were just pointed down and crossed with the player next to her. That's how it was described anyway. Would that be considered a MP block? It'd be easy to bust through if you were moving, because they're not holding hands, but it's still sort of impeding. Or did I just not understand what they were saying when they described the block?
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Johnny Zebra on January 13, 2009, 03:50:35 am
The X I was talking about isn't one where the hands are on the other player, they were just pointed down and crossed with the player next to her. That's how it was described anyway. Would that be considered a MP block? It'd be easy to bust through if you were moving, because they're not holding hands, but it's still sort of impeding. Or did I just not understand what they were saying when they described the block?

Ah, I was responding to this "X":

Quote from:  Darkjester

The third one is the one what did it for me, during a 'wall drill' where two players build a wall and a third player has to break it, The wall duo ( one of them my wife) skated next to each other, extended their arms over and crossed them against the other persons chest forming an X in between the two of them.

What you describe (crossed hands) sounds pretty benign, like the skaters who "touch tips" when skating with their fingers. I'd need to see it in action though . . .  I could see how crossing the arms  higher up could easily become akin to linking/joining.

~j.z.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Rev. Riot on January 13, 2009, 04:19:29 am
I'm pretty confident that it's been clarified that there needs to be a clenching or grabbing, not just contact, if it's with an open hand it's legal. The original X block described should be legal if it's what I'm picturing.

It could stand to be further clarified.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Major Wood on January 13, 2009, 04:24:06 am
I'm pretty confident that it's been clarified that there needs to be a clenching or grabbing, not just contact, if it's with an open hand it's legal. The original X block described should be legal if it's what I'm picturing.

It could stand to be further clarified.

What is your opinion of the shoulder to shoulder positional block?
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Johnny Zebra on January 13, 2009, 04:30:16 am
I'm pretty confident that it's been clarified that there needs to be a clenching or grabbing, not just contact, if it's with an open hand it's legal. The original X block described should be legal if it's what I'm picturing.

It could stand to be further clarified.

Huh. I'd agree that crossing arms over each others' bodies (as described below) could stand to be clarified, if it doesn't qualify as "joining."

Quote

The third one is the one what did it for me, during a 'wall drill' where two players build a wall and a third player has to break it, The wall duo skated next to each other, extended their arms over and crossed them against the other persons chest forming an X in between the two of them.

~j.z.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Crotch Rock-It on January 13, 2009, 04:31:26 am
I'm pretty confident that it's been clarified that there needs to be a clenching or grabbing, not just contact, if it's with an open hand it's legal. The original X block described should be legal if it's what I'm picturing.

It could stand to be further clarified.

I was referring to an X where the blockers forearms are crossed, but the hands aren't touching anything.  To me, that seems legal.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: JoeXCore on January 13, 2009, 12:19:25 pm
I'm pretty confident that it's been clarified that there needs to be a clenching or grabbing, not just contact, if it's with an open hand it's legal. The original X block described should be legal if it's what I'm picturing.

It could stand to be further clarified.

What is your opinion of the shoulder to shoulder positional block?


I know you weren't asking me and I'm not WFTDA certified or anything, but that's very legal.

For muti player block there has to be some sort of hold
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: L8R SK8R on January 13, 2009, 12:58:39 pm
It seems to me that the intent of the rules is for one player to block out one player, allowing for another to assist for a short period of time, without a serious advantage of a tag team action. It seems very similar to a basketball player playing defense against and another playing coming in and creating a pick. They aren't touching each other, but use strategy to defend. Two players who are holding onto each other are creating an unfair advantage for them. Even in the original X example from Darkjester it is still an unfair advantage which should warrant a penalty. Even if two skaters are touching only at the hips, and they are impeding another player, then that should be a multiplayer block. The argument has been made that this isn't joining, but the word "joining" isn't calrified, and thus I think of term "joined at the hip." I can only infer from the rules that WFDTA intends for derby to be a sort of one on one game, much like basketball. It seems like they want to avoid the tag team blocks from the old school derby that, while maybe fun to watch, were ridiculously unfair and unsafe.

Just my thoughts.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: JoeXCore on January 13, 2009, 02:44:46 pm
Although I understand where you're coming from with your interpretation I completely disagree that the intent is to make it a one on one game.

I believe the intent of this rule is to prevent a completely impassible wall, and to prevent clotheline type maneuvers (to legal target zones).
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Ballistic Whistle on January 13, 2009, 03:29:33 pm
I always took MPB to be anything you couldn't seperate by simply pulling one player off the other one. So if you have two skaters skating shoulder to shoulder, if I were to pull one of the players to the side they would simply lose contact.

However, if the players are grabbing or linked and I pulled one skater, the other would come with them and they would remain connected.

Simply having an arm across someone doesn't increase the stability of the MPB.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Crash Hartless on January 13, 2009, 03:46:52 pm

I believe the intent of this rule is to prevent a completely impassible wall, and to prevent clotheline type maneuvers (to legal target zones).

I second your interp.
In my opinion, it seems that as long as the blockers in question are using their bodies to block in a legal fashion, they can skate close to eachother for as long as they like, and it is simply positional blocking. They have the potential to slow their opponent down or hold her until teammate can block her out of bounds or knock her down. It's essentially the same thing that an experienced skater can do alone (with great timing and effective booty blocks). Admittedly, the skater stuck behind them is at a disadvantage, but if she is not getting blocked with illegal blocking zones (i.e. arms/hands) and there is a chance she can squeeze between them (since they're not actually up against eachother) it's kosher. However, if they are not just positionally blocking, but are in fact up against each other for an extended period of time, they would be in violation for making a wall since 6.2.7.3 implies making a wall is illegal (touching and assisting teammates that does not create a wall to impede an
opponent is not a multi-player block).
Just my two cents.
-Crash Hartless
Omaha Rollergirls/Mid-Iowa Rollers
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Johnny Zebra on January 13, 2009, 04:16:12 pm
This is an excellent discussion!

6.2.7.2 Skaters may not use their hands, arms, or legs in any grabbing, holding, linking or joining fashion in a multi-player block.

6.2.7.3 Touching and assisting teammates that does not create a wall to impede an opponent is not a multi-player block.


Thinking about this after following a lot of the great input here, I think that the key is what defines a wall -- some (like me) have been seeing it as contact of a sustained nature that is not easy to break apart, while others have followed the idea of a wall being grabbing or clutching as a more specific indicator of what is not easy to break apart. 

It'd be nice to have an explicit definition of what is a wall, in the glossary, or a rule, but failing that, 6.2.7.2 gives us the closest thing we have: grabbing, holding, linking or joining. Yeah, joining is a little grey here, witness the discussion, but overall, that's what the language is, so pressed shoulder to shoulder, or even crossed arms over each others' torsos is less obviously that kind of connected contact.

So I'd err on the side not call such things as an MPB, pending some clarification, even if I personally think that the crossed arms over torsos comes damn close to what a wall is.

~j.z.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Ruth of All Evil on January 13, 2009, 04:46:44 pm
I always took MPB to be anything you couldn't seperate by simply pulling one player off the other one. So if you have two skaters skating shoulder to shoulder, if I were to pull one of the players to the side they would simply lose contact.

However, if the players are grabbing or linked and I pulled one skater, the other would come with them and they would remain connected.

Simply having an arm across someone doesn't increase the stability of the MPB.

I agree with this interpretation. I interpret a MPB as a block where the players wouldn't naturally separate if hit by an opposing skater.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: L8R SK8R on January 13, 2009, 04:51:55 pm
I always took MPB to be anything you couldn't seperate by simply pulling one player off the other one. So if you have two skaters skating shoulder to shoulder, if I were to pull one of the players to the side they would simply lose contact.

However, if the players are grabbing or linked and I pulled one skater, the other would come with them and they would remain connected.

Simply having an arm across someone doesn't increase the stability of the MPB.
While I agree with this, in general, I still believe that arms crossed in front of each other would contitute a wall, since, if they are just touching shoulders, a player could sneak between them without touching any other body parts. The crossed arms creates a barrier between the two players, thus creating a wall. So while I rescind my original "one on one" statement, since others have made some good points regarding that, I still believe crossed arms is wrong, while touching shoulders is still legal.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Crotch Rock-It on January 13, 2009, 06:06:00 pm

I believe the intent of this rule is to prevent a completely impassible wall, and to prevent clotheline type maneuvers (to legal target zones).

I second your interp.
In my opinion, it seems that as long as the blockers in question are using their bodies to block in a legal fashion, they can skate close to eachother for as long as they like, and it is simply positional blocking. They have the potential to slow their opponent down or hold her until teammate can block her out of bounds or knock her down. It's essentially the same thing that an experienced skater can do alone (with great timing and effective booty blocks). Admittedly, the skater stuck behind them is at a disadvantage, but if she is not getting blocked with illegal blocking zones (i.e. arms/hands) and there is a chance she can squeeze between them (since they're not actually up against eachother) it's kosher. However, if they are not just positionally blocking, but are in fact up against each other for an extended period of time, they would be in violation for making a wall since 6.2.7.3 implies making a wall is illegal (touching and assisting teammates that does not create a wall to impede an
opponent is not a multi-player block).
Just my two cents.
-Crash Hartless
Omaha Rollergirls/Mid-Iowa Rollers

But, the rules also state that ANY amount of time a wall is created is illegal, not just an extended period of time.  Less than three seconds is a minor, and more than three seconds is a major.

Minor Penalty
6.2.7.6 Maintaining a multi-player block to impede an opponent for less than three seconds but NOT causing her to fall or lose her relative position.

Major Penalty
6.2.7.7 Maintaining a multi-player block to impede an opponent, causing her to fall or lose her relative position.
6.2.7.8 Maintaining a multi-player block to impede an opponent, for more than three seconds but not necessarily causing her to fall or lose her relative position.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: JoeXCore on January 13, 2009, 10:19:26 pm
I always took MPB to be anything you couldn't seperate by simply pulling one player off the other one. So if you have two skaters skating shoulder to shoulder, if I were to pull one of the players to the side they would simply lose contact.

However, if the players are grabbing or linked and I pulled one skater, the other would come with them and they would remain connected.

Simply having an arm across someone doesn't increase the stability of the MPB.

I agree with this interpretation. I interpret a MPB as a block where the players wouldn't naturally separate if hit by an opposing skater.


agreed
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Major Wood on January 13, 2009, 10:49:35 pm
I interpret a MPB as a block where the players wouldn't naturally separate if hit by an opposing skater.

I agree with this. But it brings the question of two blockers shoulder to shoulder and hip to hip. If blockers are creating a wall in this manner, the jammer would be unable to legally block them in a manner that would seperate the two blockers.
Now, whether this is prohibited by the rules is not especially clear. It's certainly not grabbing, holding or linking. But is it joining, or creating an illegal wall? I'm not so sure.
I hate nitpicking over wording.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: L8R SK8R on January 14, 2009, 02:52:28 pm
I agree with this interpretation. I interpret a MPB as a block where the players wouldn't naturally separate if hit by an opposing skater.
What do you define as separate? In the original arms crossed over chest example they would be able to separate sideways, but not front and back. They would be held back by either their arm or the other's. There is a reason why "Derby Position" is skating with your arms shoulder width apart, elbows bent, hands in front. Derby Position helps prevent illegal actions, like MPB.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Darkjester on January 14, 2009, 04:55:30 pm
Sounds like this is one for the WFTDA Rules Clarifications.

Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: DayGlo Divine on January 14, 2009, 05:42:12 pm
I interpret a MPB as a block where the players wouldn't naturally separate if hit by an opposing skater.

I agree with this. But it brings the question of two blockers shoulder to shoulder and hip to hip. If blockers are creating a wall in this manner, the jammer would be unable to legally block them in a manner that would seperate the two blockers.
Now, whether this is prohibited by the rules is not especially clear. It's certainly not grabbing, holding or linking. But is it joining, or creating an illegal wall? I'm not so sure.
I hate nitpicking over wording.

Under the "No impact/No penalty" section for MPB:

6.2.7.5 Touching, but not grabbing and/or holding, a teammate while blocking.

So presumably, the situation you described would be legal.

But yeah, the word "join" is a tricky nit to pick for those who struggle with Law 18.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Matt the Knife on January 17, 2009, 03:57:42 am
During the summer there was a UK bootcamp, Glasvegas, featuring a couple of American league skaters. A few of my league's skaters (inc. the captain) came back from this weekend telling us how they had been taught to form an X cross across each other's hips, palm facing forwards, as this was "not holding or joining, hence not an MPB." I thought it was a bit suspect, however if the guest skaters/coaches for the bootcamp had said it, it must have some weight, along with the ambiguous wording of the rules as shown by this topic!

At the time I thought it was just me over-interpreting the rules in favour of dishing out MPB penalties, in an over-zealous way, now I realise other people are questioning the wording I start to worry that I have been letting them practice blocking illegally!
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Brother Grim on January 18, 2009, 05:44:26 am
The question that comes to mind after all of this talk is that even if it is a legal action, why would you do it? For example:

Two blockers create the discussed formation to stop a jammer from passing. Jammer goes to push through. Her hips make contact with the blockers forearms, resulting in a legal block. If, however the blockers hold their arms in position and don't give, doesn't that then become counter blocking and open them up to:

6.2.2.3 The elbow must be bent while blocking with that arm. or;
6.2.3.10 Use of hands or forearms to grab or hold an opposing skater impeding that
skater’s mobility, causing her to lose advantage and/or forcing that skater to the ground.

I guess it depends on your interpretation of "hold". To me, the fact that "grab" and "hold" are listed separately inplys that you can technically hold someone without using your fingers/closed fist.

Am I wrong in my interpretations?
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Darkjester on January 18, 2009, 04:09:48 pm
I've filled out a WFTDA Clarifications request on this question since there are many of us of different interpretations of 'joining'. Hopefully they will deem my question worthy and provide an answer. I know they are VERY busy and VERY few volunteers who answer them.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Crotch Rock-It on January 18, 2009, 10:39:07 pm
I've filled out a WFTDA Clarifications request on this question since there are many of us of different interpretations of 'joining'. Hopefully they will deem my question worthy and provide an answer. I know they are VERY busy and VERY few volunteers who answer them.


Thanks Darkjester!
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: L8R SK8R on January 18, 2009, 10:53:07 pm
Am I wrong in my interpretations?

Makes perfect sense to me.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Poobah on January 23, 2009, 08:10:59 pm
Yeah.. the more I think about it.. the more my answer doesn't sound right... so please, correct me!

I want to preface (after the fact...) my answer by saying that somebody I respect, but I can't remember who, told me that simply crossing arms to form an X (not necessarily linked- do you all get the distinction?) was considered a MP block if another skater was trying to get through. That may not be right now that I think about it, but that's what I based that response on.

Them rules ain't clear to me.

It's my understanding that you go with the body part penalties first, then resort to others if it's necessary.

Couldn't you call both of them for a major forearms if they successfully impede her progress with the crossed arms, and minors if they don't?
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Darkjester on January 23, 2009, 09:55:38 pm
Except the forearms are across the other persons body. The only 'gap' between them is at the elbows to shoulders where they made the X. Which is a 'legal' blocking zone, its the 'pressing of the forearm/hand' to the fellow blockers chest that makes it a wall, and in my opinion, an illegal multi player block as they are now 'joined'.

It sucks, but I might be able to get my wife and daughter to pose for a 'photo' of such so we can get better understanding of what I'm trying to describe in words.

Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Slammylou Harris on January 23, 2009, 11:23:15 pm
Except the forearms are across the other persons body. The only 'gap' between them is at the elbows to shoulders where they made the X. Which is a 'legal' blocking zone, its the 'pressing of the forearm/hand' to the fellow blockers chest that makes it a wall, and in my opinion, an illegal multi player block as they are now 'joined'.

It sucks, but I might be able to get my wife and daughter to pose for a 'photo' of such so we can get better understanding of what I'm trying to describe in words.



yes please!

i've been lurking on this particular post but yr wording best describes what i have been envisioning. the pressing together of crossed arms is exactly what is "joining" these players. crossing and not touching or even possibly touching at very short intervals should be legal, right?
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Poobah on January 24, 2009, 12:58:06 am
Except the forearms are across the other persons body. The only 'gap' between them is at the elbows to shoulders where they made the X. Which is a 'legal' blocking zone, its the 'pressing of the forearm/hand' to the fellow blockers chest that makes it a wall, and in my opinion, an illegal multi player block as they are now 'joined'.

The point I'm trying to make is that even if it's not considered a multi-player block, it's begging for a hands and forearm penalty. It's not as if the forearms were just there and the jammer skated into them. They were put up in order to block her. If she skates through them she should at least be able to draw a H&F penalty on the both of them.

There's skaters out there who believe that this may be a borderline legal legal form of multi-player blocking. They seem to forget that they'd be doing it with an illegal body part.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Darkjester on January 24, 2009, 04:54:07 pm
The only way it would be a hands or forearm penalty is if the blockers in question, 'moved' to block her with them.  If they just held their position and 'she' initiated the contact, she is the blocker and they are counterblocking.  Hands are forearms are legal "Target" zones for a blocker, but not legal "blocking" zones for them to hit with, if that makes sense.

I.E. If I shoulder block into you, I can hit your entire arm including forearms and hands as a blocker.
You cannot however hit me with your forearm, elbow or hands if you are blocking me.

Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Endless Justin on January 24, 2009, 07:24:04 pm
I'm pretty confident that it's been clarified that there needs to be a clenching or grabbing, not just contact, if it's with an open hand it's legal. The original X block described should be legal if it's what I'm picturing.

It could stand to be further clarified.

What is your opinion of the shoulder to shoulder positional block?

shoulder to shoulder positional blocking is awesome.  good team play and not illegal.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Endless Justin on January 24, 2009, 07:28:46 pm
responding to two comments at once:


So, what's touching vs. grabbing, holding, linking or joining (especially joining)?


I'm pretty confident that it's been clarified that there needs to be a clenching or grabbing, not just contact, if it's with an open hand it's legal. The original X block described should be legal if it's what I'm picturing.

rev is correct when he refers to clenching. 
open handed touching is not illegal.
closed hand grabbing is illegal.  expect when it's an assist of some sort. 


6.2.7.3 Touching and assisting teammates that does not create a wall to impede an opponent is not a multi-player block.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Darkjester on January 25, 2009, 12:00:26 am
Thanks for jumping in Justin.  So next time there's a rulebook as a member of the Rules committee can you ask on behalf of us, for them to remove the "Joining" and switch 'holding with "Clenched hold"

I know how hard it can be working with rules, I'm a member of a combat Larp thats been going on for over twenty years now and we're STILL redifining and clarifying rules as things come into play.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Ballistic Whistle on January 26, 2009, 04:18:00 pm
The only way it would be a hands or forearm penalty is if the blockers in question, 'moved' to block her with them.  If they just held their position and 'she' initiated the contact, she is the blocker and they are counterblocking.  Hands are forearms are legal "Target" zones for a blocker, but not legal "blocking" zones for them to hit with, if that makes sense.
I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that the following section from the rules implies that incidental forearm contact whereby the arms are not pulled into the body (what I believe you're describing) is punishable by a forearm penalty.

6.2.3.2 Incidental forearm contact between skaters is acceptable when the arms are pulled into the body to absorb the force of a block.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Darkjester on January 27, 2009, 04:00:36 am
I think you've misread that.

The entire arm is a legal target zone. The hands/forearms/elbows is an illegal blocking zone.

If I am blocking a person and I hit them in the arms, with a legal elbow-shoulder block, no foul, even if I hit 'them' in the hands/wrist/forearms/elbow.

Now if they swing, their arms ( a counter-block) and they hit ME with the above, it would be illegal and depending on impact, a penalty. Incidental contact however, as you posted is permissible when pulled in to accept a blow.

Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Ballistic Whistle on January 27, 2009, 08:55:54 am
But doesn't that rule's sentence imply that the skater in question is receiving a hit - to absorb the force of a block?

And therefore if you absorb the force of a block by having your arms outstretched you would be in violation of 6.2.3.2.

I see what your saying though. It seems in this instance, as there is no movement made towards the incoming block, that it's not a counter block and therefore the arm is a target zone rather than a blocking zone.

You've given me food for thought so I might put this one to the rules clarifications to try and get a final word.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Major Wood on January 27, 2009, 01:02:02 pm
Always consider who is initiating the block. Also, take a look over the legal target and blocking zones diagrams.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Jessticular Fortitude on January 27, 2009, 06:42:03 pm
Can we possibly move this discussion of counter blocking to another thread? Seeing as it's not being related to multiplayer blocks anymore....
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: DayGlo Divine on January 27, 2009, 06:48:28 pm
Can we possibly move this discussion of counter blocking to another thread? Seeing as it's not being related to multiplayer blocks anymore....

Done.

http://zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=79.0
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Death by Roxy on February 07, 2009, 03:44:36 am
Quote

shoulder to shoulder positional blocking is awesome.  good team play and not illegal.
Endless Justin, I see you are the WFTDA rules committee chair so obviously you know better than anyone. But I really have to say due to the wording in 6.2.7.3 (Touching and assisting teammates that does not create a wall to impede an opponent is not a multi-player block) The shoulder to shoulder blocking (which in my experience has always been considered legal) seems more like a perfect definition of a multi player block as the current wording stands.
So, what is a wall ???
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Crotch Rock-It on February 16, 2009, 06:38:17 pm
At my team's last bout, which I was unable to attend, one of my team's skaters got a major for a multi-player block that I disagree with.  The alleged offense was that she intentionally pushed one of her teammates into an opposing skater to block her.  The pushed teammate then completed a legal block against the opposing skater by using the momentum from the push.

The pushing skater was then given a major for multiplayer blocking.  However, my understanding is that pushing teammates into opposing skaters is perfectly legal and that no penalty should have been given, multiplayer blocking or otherwise.

Please let me know if my understanding is correct here.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Major Wood on February 16, 2009, 07:02:42 pm
If a skater pushes a teammate into an opposing skater, the pusher does not receive a penalty. The pushed skater is subject to penalties for any illegal blocks.
This is not an appropriate place to use multiplayer block.
Also, you said you weren't there, so it may not have happened as the skater described.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Crotch Rock-It on February 16, 2009, 07:12:24 pm
Also, you said you weren't there, so it may not have happened as the skater described.

I do realize that, but I wanted to make sure I understood the rule correctly regardless.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Johnny Zebra on February 16, 2009, 09:01:04 pm
You're right to disagree, if the circumstances were as described.

At the core of its def, the MPB is about linkage at the moment of contact. So the bowling ball is to blame, not the bowler.

~j.z.


Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Darkjester on February 18, 2009, 05:37:19 pm
I can't say I remember that call Crotch, but I was busy miscalling Cutting the Tracks the first period :-(

It could have been during the 'push' or a whip, that an opposing skater cut through the 'arms' of the two joined skaters.  I know I went over the clarification of 'grab' needing to be set per Justins post on here a while back to my two Refs, but the Panama City refs might have called it differently.

I called 2 MPB's during Sunshine skate that were similar, during a whip, an opposing skater broke up the whip and 'chest first' skated through the two joined skaters, so I gave one of the pair a minor MPB as it slowed or 'wobbled' the blocking skater.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Crotch Rock-It on February 26, 2009, 06:06:26 pm
Jester, that type of situation was discussed in detail in this thread: http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=121.30

I tend to agree with Rev. Riot that an assist is not a MPB.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Johnny Zebra on February 26, 2009, 06:20:34 pm
I called 2 MPB's during Sunshine skate that were similar, during a whip, an opposing skater broke up the whip and 'chest first' skated through the two joined skaters, so I gave one of the pair a minor MPB as it slowed or 'wobbled' the blocking skater.


I wouldn't call this -- especially given the way it's explicitly described here, with all the agency on the opposing skater (who sounds responsible for the contact, right?). Sounds more like a successful way to break up a whip than be multiplayer blocked. Plus, why would only one player receive the penalty if it were a true multi-player block?

~j.z.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: L8R SK8R on February 26, 2009, 06:51:23 pm
I called 2 MPB's during Sunshine skate that were similar, during a whip, an opposing skater broke up the whip and 'chest first' skated through the two joined skaters, so I gave one of the pair a minor MPB as it slowed or 'wobbled' the blocking skater.

I have called a few MPBs that were basically the exact same situation as this. I interpret 6.2.7 this way. I'm not particularly cray about calling it. If the whip is almost finished, I most likely won't call it, as at that point the skater being blocked has had time to see the whip being executed, and should make the effore to avoid it. But if the whip is just being started I will call it. And if the whip receiver is holding on to the giver's shirt, I'll only call it on the receiver. If they are holding hands, I'll call them both.

What came into discussion with this rule was the meaning of the part of the rule that says "to impede an opponent". Its been asserted that the use of the word "to" means that its only a penalty if the intent of the players who created the wall intended to impede the opponent. I, personally, don't particularly agree with this interpretation, although I certainly see the merit in the argument. I'm going to request a clarification on this one, just in the hopes that someday it might be clarified.

Clarification requested:
"Are Multi Player Blocks to be penalties only when it is the intent of the players to impede an opponent, or any time an opponent is impeded, regardless of intent?"
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Endless Justin on February 26, 2009, 11:10:56 pm
my general comments on MPB's

1.
They get called much more often than they actually occur.

2.
This is a penalty that some refs want to call, which I do not understand.  And by want, I mean they kind of fish for it and see it when it isn't there.  It hardly ever actually happens.  I see refs calling it and my usual thought is something like "Really?  What game are you watchin'?"   

3.
Understand the genesis and history of this rule and you will call it more accurately. 
Rules 2.1.1 had this rule in it:
5.3.9 Skaters may not join arms or hands in a multiple-player block.
Which by extension technically made it legal to form a MPB by grabbing uniforms, legs, belts, hair, anything except arms and hands.  That was a loophole that had to be closed.  Nobody used that loophole, probably because they thought/felt/believed it to be illegal.  Two players could have speant all day blocking while tightly grabbing each others' climbing harnesses it they wanted, but that was certainly against the spirit of the rule.   3.1 essentially changed that rule to be what everyone already thought the rules was.  There was great consideration to keep assists of all kinds legal, pages and pages and pages of talk and talk-talk.  Under 2.1.1 hardly anybody called this penalty, and yet suddenly in 3.1 we have people calling it MORE often, and yet the rules now give you reasons NOT to call it.
6.2.7.3 Touching and assisting teammates that does not create a wall to impede an opponent is not a multi-player block.     
No impact/No penalty
6.2.7.4 Temporarily grabbing a teammate’s clothing, equipment or body part to push or pull, thereby adjusting the player’s speed or the teammate’s speed.
6.2.7.5 Touching, but not grabbing and/or holding, a teammate while blocking.   


4.
If it's an assist, it might not be a MPB, therefore you're probably safer not calling a penalty.  Err on the side of legal intent.

Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Endless Justin on February 26, 2009, 11:14:16 pm
I called 2 MPB's during Sunshine skate that were similar, during a whip, an opposing skater broke up the whip and 'chest first' skated through the two joined skaters, so I gave one of the pair a minor MPB as it slowed or 'wobbled' the blocking skater.


but who initiated the contact?  calling a penalty does not sound correct to me in this instance. 
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Endless Justin on February 26, 2009, 11:20:55 pm
Quote

shoulder to shoulder positional blocking is awesome.  good team play and not illegal.
Endless Justin, I see you are the WFTDA rules committee chair so obviously you know better than anyone. But I really have to say due to the wording in 6.2.7.3 (Touching and assisting teammates that does not create a wall to impede an opponent is not a multi-player block) The shoulder to shoulder blocking (which in my experience has always been considered legal) seems more like a perfect definition of a multi player block as the current wording stands.
So, what is a wall ???

No impact/No penalty

6.2.7.4 Temporarily grabbing a teammate’s clothing, equipment or body part to push or pull, thereby adjusting the player’s speed or the teammate’s speed.
6.2.7.5 Touching, but not grabbing and/or holding, a teammate while blocking. 
[/u]
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Darkjester on February 27, 2009, 03:05:38 am
I called 2 MPB's during Sunshine skate that were similar, during a whip, an opposing skater broke up the whip and 'chest first' skated through the two joined skaters, so I gave one of the pair a minor MPB as it slowed or 'wobbled' the blocking skater.


but who initiated the contact?  calling a penalty does not sound correct to me in this instance. 


The contact was initiated by the person stuck behind the two people holding onto each other :-)

I get what your saying though Justin, I just disagree with how its worded to say that.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Ref Neck on February 27, 2009, 03:10:10 am
I called 2 MPB's during Sunshine skate that were similar, during a whip, an opposing skater broke up the whip and 'chest first' skated through the two joined skaters, so I gave one of the pair a minor MPB as it slowed or 'wobbled' the blocking skater.


but who initiated the contact?  calling a penalty does not sound correct to me in this instance. 


The contact was initiated by the person stuck behind the two people holding onto each other :-)

I get what your saying though Justin, I just disagree with how its worded to say that.


A whip/assist is generally not considered a multiplayer block, especially if the blocker was attempting to break up the whip/assist. That is just good competitive derby and no penalty should be the correct call.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: L8R SK8R on February 27, 2009, 12:15:43 pm
I called 2 MPB's during Sunshine skate that were similar, during a whip, an opposing skater broke up the whip and 'chest first' skated through the two joined skaters, so I gave one of the pair a minor MPB as it slowed or 'wobbled' the blocking skater.


but who initiated the contact?  calling a penalty does not sound correct to me in this instance. 


The contact was initiated by the person stuck behind the two people holding onto each other :-)

I get what your saying though Justin, I just disagree with how its worded to say that.


A whip/assist is generally not considered a multiplayer block, especially if the blocker was attempting to break up the whip/assist. That is just good competitive derby and no penalty should be the correct call.


I have to agree with Darkjester here. While I also agree that a whip, or any assist, should not be a MPB, when it really comes down to it, the only difference between the two is what the skaters intended by the action. If the meant to create a whip, then its an assist, but if they meant to create a wall it was a MPB, even if it was the exact same action. Its my belief that the rules should be worded in such a way as to eliminate the responsibility of a referee to have to make a judgment call on the intent of the action.

But then, I am of the camp that believes referees should have a minimal role in the game which doesn't include judging intent, except in extreme cases, like egregious tripping.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Endless Justin on February 27, 2009, 01:18:20 pm
I called 2 MPB's during Sunshine skate that were similar, during a whip, an opposing skater broke up the whip and 'chest first' skated through the two joined skaters, so I gave one of the pair a minor MPB as it slowed or 'wobbled' the blocking skater.


but who initiated the contact?  calling a penalty does not sound correct to me in this instance. 


The contact was initiated by the person stuck behind the two people holding onto each other :-)

I get what your saying though Justin, I just disagree with how its worded to say that.


5.1.2 The skater who makes contact with a target zone of an opponent is considered the initiator of the block. The initiator of the block is always responsible for the legality of the contact.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: L8R SK8R on February 27, 2009, 01:33:17 pm
5.1.2 The skater who makes contact with a target zone of an opponent is considered the initiator of the block. The initiator of the block is always responsible for the legality of the contact.

Justin, I really don't mean to sound like a jerk, but if that rule always applies, then if a girl is skating around with her leg out, and another girls skates into it and trips and falls down, wouldn't the skater who was tripped get a penalty for a low block (albeit no impact if the tripper never faltered)?
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Major Wood on February 27, 2009, 01:39:38 pm
If a skater maintains a certain skating stance, she is not responsible for others tripping over her legs or the like.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Endless Justin on February 27, 2009, 03:15:00 pm
5.1.2 The skater who makes contact with a target zone of an opponent is considered the initiator of the block. The initiator of the block is always responsible for the legality of the contact.

Justin, I really don't mean to sound like a jerk, but if that rule always applies, then if a girl is skating around with her leg out, and another girls skates into it and trips and falls down, wouldn't the skater who was tripped get a penalty for a low block (albeit no impact if the tripper never faltered)?

The use of the word "always" in this rule is 100% intentional and accurate.   

I'm here trying to help by offering insight that really no one else can provide, so please make efforts to respect the experience and time I'm giving. 
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Endless Justin on February 27, 2009, 03:15:25 pm
If a skater maintains a certain skating stance, she is not responsible for others tripping over her legs or the like.

what he said.

eg

if player A is skating with her elbows up and out (locked, stationary etc.), and player B skates face first into said elbow, it is not a foul on player A.  player B initiated the contact with her face.  
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Darkjester on February 27, 2009, 04:27:24 pm
I'm not arguing.. As I said earlier, I get what your saying, I just disagree with how its worded.

However.. For the sake of discussion, the MPB section doesn't say anything about a block being needed, only that 2 or more players join to create a wall to impede an opponent. The length of time they are joined is whether or not its a Minor or Major. So even in the examples I showed, they were joined, the other skater skated legally into them, they were still blocking her.

However, I will go with the 'intent' that an assist is not meant to be called as a MPB in the future, like I said, I get what your saying, I just don't agree with the wording.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Ref Neck on March 01, 2009, 10:32:09 am
You can't really disagree with a rule and change how it is supposed to be called though. Hell, I think its hilarious that the ruleset has a rule that says refs can't make up rules (8.3.1.2).
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Stegoscorus on March 01, 2009, 09:43:52 pm
2.
This is a penalty that some refs want to call, which I do not understand.  And by want, I mean they kind of fish for it and see it when it isn't there.

That's because it's the most fun hand signal!  ;) 

3.
Understand the genesis and history of this rule and you will call it more accurately. 
Rules 2.1.1 had this rule in it:
5.3.9 Skaters may not join arms or hands in a multiple-player block.
Which by extension technically made it legal to form a MPB by grabbing uniforms, legs, belts, hair, anything except arms and hands.  That was a loophole that had to be closed.  Nobody used that loophole, probably because they thought/felt/believed it to be illegal.  Two players could have spent all day blocking while tightly grabbing each others' climbing harnesses it they wanted, but that was certainly against the spirit of the rule.   3.1 essentially changed that rule to be what everyone already thought the rules was.  There was great consideration to keep assists of all kinds legal, pages and pages and pages of talk and talk-talk.  Under 2.1.1 hardly anybody called this penalty, and yet suddenly in 3.1 we have people calling it MORE often, and yet the rules now give you reasons NOT to call it.

For the record, our skaters definitely used this loophole, and we were all glad when it was clarified.  And by we, I don't just mean refs; skaters tend to be relieved too when a gap between the intent and the letter of the rule is closed.  Even if the rule set says a lot more about it, I find it to be much more straight forward to understand and explain.  The Rules Committee's energy on this one was not in vain!

Maybe the real reason it's called more is because of all the attention it received as it was being redefined to include uniforms, and the addition of its own hand signal.  That kind of thing can make refs feel like there's something there that they're missing, or forgetting to scan for as they watch the pack.  I personally have never felt like I see it a whole lot, especially since jersey stretching walls were clarified as a no-no.
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: bronco on March 02, 2009, 08:40:34 am
I can't tell you how many skaters are surprised when I explain that initiators are responsible.  Blocker attempts to hit Jammer, Jammer ducks and gets hit in the head.  "Why is it my fault, she got hit in the head 'coz she ducked?"

5.1.2 The skater who makes contact with a target zone of an opponent is considered the initiator of the block. The initiator of the block is always responsible for the legality of the contact.

Justin, I really don't mean to sound like a jerk, but if that rule always applies, then if a girl is skating around with her leg out, and another girls skates into it and trips and falls down, wouldn't the skater who was tripped get a penalty for a low block (albeit no impact if the tripper never faltered)?

The use of the word "always" in this rule is 100% intentional and accurate.   

I'm here trying to help by offering insight that really no one else can provide, so please make efforts to respect the experience and time I'm giving. 
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Miranda Wrights on March 05, 2009, 08:31:19 pm
Quote
I've filled out a WFTDA Clarifications request on this question since there are many of us of different interpretations of 'joining'. Hopefully they will deem my question worthy and provide an answer. I know they are VERY busy and VERY few volunteers who answer them.

Awesome!  But this parsing out is waaaay too much fun.

Returning to the deep nerdery of how "joining" gets expressed in a MPB, dictionary.com defines joining as "to bring in contact, connect, or bring or put together: to join hands; to join pages with a staple."  This reading indicates that there is "object to object" contact that has the intention to bind together at the point of contact.  I.e. put your hand in mine and we are joined. 

So if arms are extended in the X position but there is clearly no grabbing or holding, are they bound together even if they are resting/lightly touching the other blocker's body?  Clearly if their arms are extended but not touching the other blocker (i.e. floating 6" in front of the other blocker's body) there is no joining.  Even if they were touching the other blocker with their hand, they would not be bound because to be bound would mean that there would have to be some action to be released from the contact. 

Wadda think>
Title: Re: Multiplayer blocking
Post by: Major Wood on March 05, 2009, 10:59:24 pm
open handed touching is not illegal.
closed hand grabbing is illegal.  expect when it's an assist of some sort. 

This is as close to an official definition of joining as we will get on here. Note that it is not in the rules or on the rules.wftda.com site.