Zebra Huddle™

Non-Skating Officials => General NSO Discussion => Topic started by: Mac Ramaniac on January 12, 2013, 05:36:13 pm

Title: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
Post by: Mac Ramaniac on January 12, 2013, 05:36:13 pm
So your crew is awesome, that is a given.

If you were going to assign an infield NSO to communicate (to SO) that a skater in the queue has accumulated an additional penalty, which position would you designate that job to?

Do you give an infield NSO the authority to communicate the total penalty service time directly to penalty box staff? Or does it go through an SO?
Title: Re: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
Post by: Darkjester on January 12, 2013, 06:04:15 pm
Penalty Tracker/White Board Operator. In the past it would be the Wrangler, but since that position has become obsolete I'd move it to the Tracker/Operator as a back up to the Skating official.
Title: Re: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
Post by: FNZebra on January 12, 2013, 08:13:20 pm
Let me just say that NO positions have become officially obsolete yet.

I was speaking recently with a HNSO of a highly ranked WFTDA league that was reconsidering OWBs for some of their bouts.

Currently all leagues are encouraged to experiment, and work out what works best for the combination of their officiating crews (SO & NSO) and their venue.
Title: Re: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
Post by: Eject You Later on January 12, 2013, 08:22:02 pm
Quote from: FNZebra on January 12, 2013, 08:13:20 pm
I was speaking recently with a HNSO of a highly ranked WFTDA league that was reconsidering OWBs for some of their bouts.

Having done a couple of scrimmages (no games yet), OPR penalty calling is definitely a concern I have.  I've been instructing my OPRs to ensure their calls are loud and their hand signals visible.  I've also been telling them that once their skater has left the track to look to the inside, make eye contact with the trangler (haven't quite decided on a single wrangler + single penalty tracker, or dual trackers and no wrangler) and repeat the hand signal until they receive a confirmation.  If they are unable to get a confirmation then check in between jams to ensure their penalty has been recorded accurately.

I believe we can deprecate the OWBs.  However, it will take some training of OPRs to make this smooth.  Yes, they should already be making their calls loud and their hand signals visible.  But the OWBs can hide some inexperience and/or poor habits.
Title: Re: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
Post by: Darkjester on January 12, 2013, 09:05:50 pm
Quote from: FNZebra on January 12, 2013, 08:13:20 pm
Let me just say that NO positions have become officially obsolete yet.

Good catch FN!
I swear I had read somewhere that Wrangler was obsolete and that it would be Penaltry Tracker/Inside Whiteboard Combination, but upon reviewing the Standardized Practices Document from wftda.com I was in error.

Title: Re: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
Post by: MC NINJA on January 13, 2013, 04:58:03 am
If you were going to assign an infield NSO to communicate (to SO) that a skater in the queue has accumulated an additional penalty, which position would you designate that job to?

What is a skater in the queue? And what are we communicating?
Title: Re: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
Post by: MC NINJA on January 13, 2013, 04:59:53 am
It sound like a forbidden verbal que??????????
Title: Re: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
Post by: MC NINJA on January 13, 2013, 05:03:49 am
How is a skater "in the queue?"
Title: Re: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
Post by: Eject You Later on January 13, 2013, 02:43:56 pm
Quote from: M. C. Ninja on January 13, 2013, 05:03:49 am
How is a skater "in the queue?"

A blocker is sent to the penalty box for a penalty.  The penalty box already has 2 blockers seated.  There may not be 3 blockers seated in the penalty box.  So the blocker is waived back to the track and is in queue.  When one of the seated blockers stands the in queue blocker is sent back to the penalty box to serve her penalty.

While she is on the track she may accumulate additional penalties.
Title: Re: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
Post by: Sintax on January 13, 2013, 09:49:22 pm
Like Eject, so far I've only scrimmaged but this is how I'm leaning; We keep the wrangler, authorise the penalty box manager to pass on possible penalties to either OPR or wrangler, and increase the habitual eyes on checks on the penalty box. I'm also a tad concerned about the OPRs.
Title: Re: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
Post by: molotovmuffin on February 09, 2013, 07:18:38 pm
Quote from: Eject You Later on January 13, 2013, 02:43:56 pm
Quote from: M. C. Ninja on January 13, 2013, 05:03:49 am
How is a skater "in the queue?"

A blocker is sent to the penalty box for a penalty.  The penalty box already has 2 blockers seated.  There may not be 3 blockers seated in the penalty box.  So the blocker is waived back to the track and is in queue.  When one of the seated blockers stands the in queue blocker is sent back to the penalty box to serve her penalty.

While she is on the track she may accumulate additional penalties.
We had a bout that had several skaters in que and although it was confusing and a bit difficult to straighten out (who was sent first, second), it was manageable since the box manager had a wht board to keep track of who was in que.

The new rules are going to make things interesting when bout season starts in earnest and I look forward to playing around with staffing.
Title: Re: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
Post by: ShoNuff on February 11, 2013, 08:54:43 pm
One thing to note is that you don't have to care who was sent first or second.

The queue is not literal.  When a seat opens, any skater owing penalty time can report.  There is no requirement for the first skater penalized to report first.

So while you do need to keep track of who owes time, you don't have to keep track of the order the penalties were issued.
Title: Re: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
Post by: Samuel Bergus on February 11, 2013, 09:16:41 pm
Quote from: ShoNuff on February 11, 2013, 08:54:43 pm
The queue is not literal.  When a seat opens, any skater owing penalty time can report.  There is no requirement for the first skater penalized to report first.

To add to what Sho said, "any skater owing penalty time" can include a newly penalized skater. You shouldn't direct a skater to return to the track if there is an open chair for them to sit in.
Title: Re: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
Post by: ShoNuff on February 13, 2013, 08:25:35 pm
Quote from: Mac Ramaniac on January 12, 2013, 05:36:13 pm
So your crew is awesome, that is a given.

If you were going to assign an infield NSO to communicate (to SO) that a skater in the queue has accumulated an additional penalty, which position would you designate that job to?

Do you give an infield NSO the authority to communicate the total penalty service time directly to penalty box staff? Or does it go through an SO?

The answer to the original question is likely to vary some from crew to crew.

Who confirms that skaters sit in your crew?  It's usually the IWB, the wrangler or a little of both.  I prefer that to be part of the IWB's job, so to me the best person to relay multiple minutes to the box is the IWB.  If you have your wrangler take care of that, then they are the best person.

The key is, make it someone the box staff is regularly looking for so that they actually see the signal coming their way.

This should not have to be passed through an SO since no new penalty is being issued, the status of already issued penalties is being communicated.
Title: Re: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
Post by: DocSkinner on February 13, 2013, 11:52:43 pm
Quote from: Dante Zmebro on February 11, 2013, 09:16:41 pm
Quote from: ShoNuff on February 11, 2013, 08:54:43 pm
The queue is not literal.  When a seat opens, any skater owing penalty time can report.  There is no requirement for the first skater penalized to report first.
To add to what Sho said, "any skater owing penalty time" can include a newly penalized skater. You shouldn't direct a skater to return to the track if there is an open chair for them to sit in.

While I cannot argue against this (I like it), I do wonder if this is based on a rule or clarification, or if it comes from the fact that there is no rule describing the creation of a queue.

[rule]7.2.2.2 No team may have more than two Blockers and one Jammer seated in the penalty box at a time. If a team has more than two penalized Blockers, the penalties will be served consecutively, i.e. the third Blocker will sit out once the first Blocker has served their penalty. [/rule]

It specifically says that the "third Blocker will sit out once" the seat is free. That suggests that the "third Blocker" is the one who should report, and not the fourth or subsequent.

The Standardized Practices document does refer to a queue, but only says that skaters in the queue should be reported to the referees between jams.

As I said, I would prefer to not worry about a queue order and accept any blocker who wants to sit. I just am not sure where that is spelled out. If it is a case of "since it is not defined, it doesn't exist" that's fine. But I can see an argument that the term "queue" implies an order.
Title: Re: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
Post by: The Gorram Reaver on February 14, 2013, 12:16:42 am
Quote from: DocSkinner on February 13, 2013, 11:52:43 pm
While I cannot argue against this (I like it), I do wonder if this is based on a rule or clarification, or if it comes from the fact that there is no rule describing the creation of a queue.

It's no more based on a specific rule or clarification than the justification you provide for requiring strict order of penalty service is based in a specific rule.  In other words, both approaches (strict order of penalty service, and first-come first-served order of penalty service) are synthesized from rules that govern other aspects of penalty service.

A skater who earns a major penalty must be directed off the track and report to the penalty box, regardless of whether or not there is a seat available at the time the penalty is assessed, and regardless of whether or not she has recently reported to the box for another penalty and been waved off. 
[rule]7.1.1 - When a skater has earned a major penalty, that skater will be sent to the penalty box. The skater’s team must play short, without the skater and the position the skater was playing, until the penalty has expired (see Section 7.2.2).[/rule]
[rule]7.2.2 - Penalty Box Procedures, Rights, and Restrictions

When a skater is sent to the penalty box, the skater must immediately exit the track and skate to the penalty box in the counter-clockwise direction.[/rule]


The only exception to this is if the skater is the only blocker currently On The Track (as in, not considered Not On The Track) for her team.
[rule]7.2.2.2.3 - In order to form a pack, a team must have at least one Blocker on the track at all times. If there is only one Blocker from a given team, that skater will not be sent to the penalty box, even if the penalty box cap has not been reached, until another Blocker returns to the track and has joined the pack.[/rule]

When a Blocker reports to the penalty box, she is waved off if there is no available seat for her, unless there are less than 10 seconds remaining for any Blockers who are in the box.
[rule]7.2.2.3 - If there are already two Blockers in the box from the penalized Blocker’s team, the third Blocker will be waved off by the penalty timer. If there are less than 10 seconds left on penalties currently being served, the penalty timer will hold the third Blocker in the box and start timing the penalty. If the skater is waved off, the skater must return to the track as described in Section 7.2.7. A Jammer can never be waved off from the penalty box.[/rule]

If we can't wave off a Blocker who arrives while another Blocker has less than 10 seconds to serve is still in the penalty box, then we have no reason to insist on skaters reporting to the box in a specific order.

Moreover, if we're going to insist that all Blockers serve their penalties in the order in which they're assessed by the referees....

Black 7 gets a penalty, reports to the box, and is seated.
Black 38 gets a penalty, incurs a second penalty for Insubordination while she reports to the box, and is seated (two minutes to serve).
Black 92 gets a penalty, reports to the box, and is waved off.
Black 432 gets a penalty, reports to the box, and is waved off.
Black 92 gets a penalty, reports to the box, and is waved off.
Black 7 stands.
Black 92 is directed back to the box.

So....  When Black 92 gets to the box, do you have her sit for two minutes, or do you have her serve one minute, then release her and get Black 432 to the box to serve her minute, then bring Black 92 back once Black 38 is done with her two minutes.  After all, that's the order in which the penalties were assessed and skaters reported to the box....

If we're going to insist skaters serve their penalties in the exact order they were issued, we should be insisting that skaters serve their penalties in the exact order they were issued.
Title: Re: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
Post by: ShoNuff on February 14, 2013, 12:26:44 am
I would say it is exactly based on a specific rule.  7.2.2.3 only allow you to wave off a blocker if there are two seated blockers in the box when they arrive.

That prevents a literal queue since you can't wave a skater off because there is another blocker not seated in the box who owes time. 
Title: Re: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
Post by: DocSkinner on February 14, 2013, 02:11:18 am
I agree that it is not clear. I was just curious if there was a rule or a clarification that I was missing, as Sho and Dante seemed so sure.

In my interpretation there is at least as much evidence supporting a literal queue as there is supporting the "first available" option. However without the formal creation of a queue per the ruleset, I will go with the easier option of no set order.
Title: Re: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
Post by: ShoNuff on February 14, 2013, 04:16:33 am
I owuld put it this way then.

Without violating 7.2.2.3, how do you impose a literal queue?

Blocker reports to the box.  There is only one seated blocker.  If you wave that skater off, you ignore 7.2.2.3.

If you seat that blocker, there is no rule that is not enforced.
The waved off blocker will still serve her penalty after the blockers already seated when she is waved off, thus 7.2.2.2 is followed and no skater is waved off unless there are two blockers seated when they arrive at the box, 7.2.2.3 is followed.

Literal queue requires you to set aside rules.  No literal queue does not.

Title: Re: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
Post by: DocSkinner on February 14, 2013, 05:15:18 am
Rule 7.2.2.2 also says that the third Blocker will serve her penalty once the penalty box is available. I'd want to know the definition of "third Blocker" in that rule. As a blocker has previously reported to the box (hence there being a queue in the first place), that skater is the "third Blocker".

But I'm not arguing. I agree with you. I just am not as sure as you are that the interpretation is correct.
Title: Re: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
Post by: ShoNuff on February 14, 2013, 01:59:03 pm
The third blocker is any blocker who arrives at the box when there are two seated blockers.

There can be two third blockers at the same time.  A third blocker is any blocker who arrives at the box and satisifes the conditions of 7.2.2.3 since 7.2.2.2 sends you to 7.2.2.3 to determine if a blocker meets the criteria for being waved off.

To me the key issue is that 7.2.2.2 sends you to 7.2.2.3 to determine if a waveoff should be performed.  7.2.2.3 then defines a very specific criterion and says that you wave someone off if there are two blockers in the box.  7.2.2.3 never sends you back to 7.2.2.2 it fully defines the decision making process.

A blocker on the track is not relevent for the decision to wave off a skater.  If the criterion had been there already being two penalized blockers, then I would see that as supporting a literal queue since the waved off blocker is a penalized blocker.  But you are only allowed to consider a blocker who is seated right now and a blocker out on the track is not seated in the box.
Title: Re: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
Post by: Darkjester on February 14, 2013, 06:14:34 pm
First Come First Served :-)
Title: Re: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
Post by: molotovmuffin on February 16, 2013, 04:04:41 pm
Quote from: ShoNuff on February 11, 2013, 08:54:43 pm
One thing to note is that you don't have to care who was sent first or second.

The queue is not literal.  When a seat opens, any skater owing penalty time can report.  There is no requirement for the first skater penalized to report first.

So while you do need to keep track of who owes time, you don't have to keep track of the order the penalties were issued.
This is true but if you don't keep track of who is sent when, you could literally end up with a skater staying on track for 3 jams or more while trying to get her time the box.  It does need to be paid attention to otherwise someone isn't going to serve their time in a timely manner.
Title: Re: Penalty accumulation while in the queue
Post by: The Gorram Reaver on February 16, 2013, 06:33:11 pm
Quote from: molotovmuffin on February 16, 2013, 04:04:41 pm
This is true but if you don't keep track of who is sent when, you could literally end up with a skater staying on track for 3 jams or more while trying to get her time the box.  It does need to be paid attention to otherwise someone isn't going to serve their time in a timely manner.

How long a skater has to wait to serve her penalty time is not our concern.  Ensuring that she stays on the track until her time is served, and that she eventually reports to the box to serve that penalty, is.  If a skater and/or her team are concerned about how long she has to be on track before that penalty is served they are welcome to utilize tactics that are permissible within the rules (skating past Point of No Return Line, skating very slowly on the way to the box, standing in the penalty box area and not sitting so the seat does not become occupied, etc.) to ensure that the skater who has been on the track waiting to serve the longest is the fist one to sit in a seat.

TLDR: This is not an officiating concern, this is a team/strategy concern.