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Older Rulesets => 5/26/2010 Rules => General Ref Discussion 5/26/2010 => Topic started by: jillintent on May 06, 2009, 03:44:05 am

Title: False Start
Post by: jillintent on May 06, 2009, 03:44:05 am
If both jammers false start and do not yield, how are penalties issued?  at practice this evening one jammer false started and the second jammer followed in her lead. 
Title: Re: False Start
Post by: mick hawkins on May 06, 2009, 03:59:56 am
If both jammers false start and do not yield, how are penalties issued?  at practice this evening one jammer false started and the second jammer followed in her lead. 

6.12.10 A false start by a Jammer or Blocker who does not yield advantage.  = MAJOR

first jammer gets a major
then the other one does

then 7.4 is followed
Title: Re: False Start
Post by: jillintent on May 06, 2009, 04:02:48 am
This is what I thought.  But, I was told that the "yielding advantage" didn't apply since they BOTH false started and that both of them should have had a minor.
Title: Re: False Start
Post by: mick hawkins on May 06, 2009, 04:09:12 am
yeah - ive heard that too
doesnt say that in the rules though

Title: Re: False Start
Post by: jillintent on May 06, 2009, 04:18:02 am
So, you think both should get majors definately?
Title: Re: False Start
Post by: mick hawkins on May 06, 2009, 04:20:18 am
So, you think both should get majors definately?

that's what 6.12.10 says

no yielding = major

the rules clarification on this says...
Once the Jammer receives her false start minor penalty and is told to yield, she must stop all forward motion until the opposing Jammer takes the lead by passing her. The Jammer who false-starts may not position her body in a way so as to impede the opposing Jammers forward or lateral motion. Once the Jammer passes the false start Jammer, both Jammers resume normal play.
Title: Re: False Start
Post by: jillintent on May 06, 2009, 04:32:39 am
Well, I will bring this back to my group and see if we can get on the same page. or at least my page. . .because I am also understanding that they should both have gotten majors.
Thanks for your help.
-jillintent
Title: Re: False Start
Post by: mick hawkins on May 06, 2009, 04:35:44 am
be sure to ask them what they think should happen if there's only one jammer on the track and she false starts

 ;)
Title: Re: False Start
Post by: Rev. Riot on May 06, 2009, 06:17:44 am
Further, the Jammers are gaining an advantage on the pack as well when they false start, because the pack is not ready for them to be coming through so early. So yes, they need to yield that advantage.
Title: Re: False Start
Post by: reflmao on May 06, 2009, 01:46:32 pm
Does your answer change if both jammers realized that they had false started and stopped dead on the track but past the jammer line.

I was at this practice I didn't see it as I was with the pack.  My understanding is that they both stopped, and then they started moving again at the jammer whistle and restarted together.

For me the question really comes down to what is yielding when both false start. Some of our refs interpreted this as yielding and some didn't.  Yielding isn't defined to this level in rules. 

If my understanding is correct then I'm on the two minors side of this argument. There was no cartoonish "after you", "no after you", "no after YOU". but they yielded as best they could.  By stopping and starting together they yielded any advantage they had on each other and most (maybe all, I didn't see it) of the advantage they gained on the pack.
Title: Re: False Start
Post by: Johnny Zebra on May 06, 2009, 01:49:41 pm
Does your answer change if both jammers realized that they had false started and stopped dead on the track but past the jammer line.

I was at this practice I didn't see it as I was with the pack.  My understanding is that they both stopped, and then they started moving again at the jammer whistle and restarted together.

For me the question really comes down to what is yielding when both false start. Some of our refs interpreted this as yielding and some didn't.  Yielding isn't defined to this level in rules. 

If my understanding is correct then I'm on the two minors side of this argument. There was no cartoonish "after you", "no after you", "no after YOU". but they yielded as best they could.  By stopping and starting together they yielded any advantage they had on each other and most (maybe all, I didn't see it) of the advantage they gained on the pack.

Minors. In this specific situation, I'd probably signal the jammers are good to start moving again.

~j.z.
Title: Re: False Start
Post by: Darkjester on May 06, 2009, 03:57:04 pm
I think that would constitute "Yielding" as they both came to a complete stop, and then both started again at the whistle.   Minors..
Title: Re: False Start
Post by: mick hawkins on May 06, 2009, 11:38:25 pm
Does your answer change if both jammers realized that they had false started and stopped dead on the track but past the jammer line.

sure... that'd be yielding the advantage = minors
Title: Re: False Start
Post by: jillintent on May 07, 2009, 01:23:35 am
When there is an official time out.  My thoughts are this is treated somewhat like a fire drill where everyone has a game plan to meet in one spot quickly and discuss what has happened from one source - the referee that is most involved.
This false start situation may just be a lesson for us; because I was told we were trying to figure out what happens when neither jammer yields.  I was the jammer ref and we had stopped the jam to figure out this rule and Reflmao was told they had both stopped to yield.
Either way, we are clear on the rule now - progress.
The lesson is: We need to organize our official time outs so that they are successful. We have an awesome group of ref's so this will be easy. : )
Title: Re: False Start
Post by: JoeXCore on May 08, 2009, 04:48:52 am
Speaking of false starting I just noticed a change in wording.

6.12.4.1   A Jammer false starts for being out of position at the Jammer starting whistle when she is touching beyond the Jammer line.

This means no longer does a jammer get a penalty for false starting if she starts on the pack whistle and then returns behind the jammer line before the jammer whistle.
Title: Re: False Start
Post by: JoeXCore on May 08, 2009, 04:57:24 am
Spending some time with the rules under the microscope.

2.4.4.2   ...They are subject to false start penalties if they are not behind the Pivot line and in front of the Jammer line (see Section 6.12.4 for specific penalty details)...

6.12.4.2.2   is touching behind the Jammer line

With all of the specificity of ON or BEHIND the jammer line in the rules, here's a contradiction.
Title: Re: False Start
Post by: Major Wood on May 08, 2009, 05:07:18 am
I'm not sure I see the contradiction. What is being stated is that the front edge of the pivot line and the back edge of the jammer line are the actual boundaries of where pivots and non-pivot blockers may position themselves when a jam starts.
Title: Re: False Start
Post by: Treble Damage on May 08, 2009, 06:09:56 am
Speaking of false starting I just noticed a change in wording.

6.12.4.1   A Jammer false starts for being out of position at the Jammer starting whistle when she is touching beyond the Jammer line.

This means no longer does a jammer get a penalty for false starting if she starts on the pack whistle and then returns behind the jammer line before the jammer whistle.

Oof.  I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, but although I see your point with the text, I do not think this change was intended.

-Treble Damage
Charm City
Title: Re: False Start
Post by: noidd on May 08, 2009, 01:53:55 pm
Oof.  I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, but although I see your point with the text, I do not think this change was intended.

What do you think the intent of the change in language was?

Title: Re: False Start
Post by: JoeXCore on May 08, 2009, 02:46:04 pm
I'm not sure I see the contradiction. What is being stated is that the front edge of the pivot line and the back edge of the jammer line are the actual boundaries of where pivots and non-pivot blockers may position themselves when a jam starts.

You say the back edge of the jammer line... as in the blocker may line up ON the jamme line... as long as she is not behind it?

That doesn't match up with 2.4.4.2 which says she is subject to penalties if she is not "in front of the jammer line"

But then 6.12.4.2.2 agrees with you saying she "false starts for being out of position at the pack starting whistle when she... is touching behind the Jammer line"

The rules now very specifically acknowledge 3 relationships with the starting lines.

In front of
Behind
On

You know... I gotta go through these things with a fine toothed comb to be prepared for when I deal with a coach that has done the same. (I deal with some of those)
Title: Re: False Start
Post by: JoeXCore on May 08, 2009, 02:51:26 pm
Speaking of false starting I just noticed a change in wording.

6.12.4.1   A Jammer false starts for being out of position at the Jammer starting whistle when she is touching beyond the Jammer line.

This means no longer does a jammer get a penalty for false starting if she starts on the pack whistle and then returns behind the jammer line before the jammer whistle.

Oof.  I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, but although I see your point with the text, I do not think this change was intended.

-Treble Damage
Charm City

Intended or not if someone calls a penalty on someone that is completely behind the jammer line at the jammer start whistle... wouldn't they be wrong? It's pretty clear "when she is touching beyond the Jammer line."
Title: Re: False Start
Post by: Cliquework on May 08, 2009, 03:29:14 pm
It seems an awfully specific language choice to be unintended. Also makes sense. How can a Jammer false start if the Jammers haven't started.

Being ON (or off) the track at the first whistle being a different story altogether.


Edit: Upon looking back at the previous rule wording, it seems as if it (the previous rule) was (or could have been)  intended to be this "new" way, but left the door open for false starting anytime before the Jammer start whistle. Door now closed and clarified.

Title: Re: False Start
Post by: Stegoscorus on May 08, 2009, 04:35:37 pm
I can't speak at all to the intention of the wording, but it may help to remember that different members of WFTDA Rules Committee write different sections of the rules.  Occasionally this kind of thing happens, where minutiae don't match up.  Of course it's proofread by the member leagues, but we're not perfect either.  It's just part of the charm of being a grassroots organization.   ;)

Or maybe that's not what happened here at all, what the heck do I know?
Title: Re: False Start
Post by: Treble Damage on May 08, 2009, 04:37:48 pm
It seems an awfully specific language choice to be unintended. Also makes sense. How can a Jammer false start if the Jammers haven't started.

Well....  Isn't that exactly what a false start is?  A Jammer starting before the Jammers are supposed to start?

I think it's unintended because of this:

Quote
2.4.4.1 Jammers are considered in position and ready if they are in bounds when the first whistle of the jam (i.e., the whistle to start the pack rolling) is blown. Jammers are subject to false start penalties if they are not on or behind the Jammer line (see Section 6.12.4 for specific penalty details).  

My honest belief, and I mean no disrespect to anyone, is that the language of 6.12.4.1 was likely copied from the blocker false start language, and the designation of the whistle was changed maybe while someone wasn't reading as carefully as usual at that moment - either that or they said "Jammer starting whistle" when they meant "Jam starting whistle."  

Like I say, I may be wrong, and I welcome anyone more knowledgeable to disagree.  But I believe that the intent of the rules is that a false start minor will be issued to a Jammer who is in front of the jammer line at any time between the pack whistle and the jammer whistle.

But where that leaves us, I don't know.  Until told otherwise, the text of the rules is what it is.  Based on the text of the rules, I cannot say JoeXCore would be wrong to call it the way he suggests (although I think 2.4.4.1 also gives enough ammunition to call it the other way, pending further clarification).

-Treble Damage
Charm City
Title: Re: False Start
Post by: Cliquework on May 08, 2009, 05:03:15 pm
I just meant before the Jammers even "have" started, not before they're supposed to, which yes is a false start. It's just that now the "before they're supposed to" is written as the Jammer whistle itself (in the penalty section of of course), not anytime between the two.

But yes, I get what you're saying and I certainly have no background knowledge of as to why it is this way or what was the original intent, or if it's merely an editing accident. I'm just making my interpretation on the side of the coin that is mentioned in the penalty section as opposed to 2.4.4.1, which does go on to say (see Section 6.12.4 for specific penalty details).
Title: Re: False Start
Post by: Professor Murder on May 08, 2009, 05:10:09 pm
I'm, like Wood, not seeing the problem or contradiction.  There are standards that measure false start differentially for blockers, pivot blockers, and jammers.

Different standards for different positions is different.  Not contradictory.
Title: Re: False Start
Post by: JoeXCore on May 08, 2009, 06:48:31 pm
I'm, like Wood, not seeing the problem or contradiction.  There are standards that measure false start differentially for blockers, pivot blockers, and jammers.

Different standards for different positions is different.  Not contradictory.

both 6.12.4.2.2 and 2.4.4.2 are referring to blockers.

2.4.4.2 says they are subject to penalties if they are not in front of the jammer line and 6.12.4.2.2 says when she is touching behind the jammer line.

2.4.4.2 implies they may not be ON the jammer line, since they must be in front of it
6.12.4.2.2 says they won't get a penalty unless they're behind it
Title: Re: False Start
Post by: Professor Murder on May 08, 2009, 07:09:20 pm
Based on the need to find implication to support the existence of a contradiction, along with the parenthetical clause in 2.4.4.2 clearly stating that the "specific penalty details" are located in 6.12.4, I disagree.
Title: Re: False Start
Post by: Jonathan Lee on May 08, 2009, 07:36:42 pm
Follow 6.12.4.1

In general, always go by what is listed under the "TYPES OF PENALTIES" section
Title: Re: False Start
Post by: Treble Damage on May 08, 2009, 08:54:42 pm
Could a moderator split this thread?  There's two distinct issues being discussed here, and I don't think that's clear.

Issue 1: Will a blocker be awarded a false start penalty if she is touching the jammer line, but is not behind it?

Issue 2: Will a jammer be awarded a false start minor if she is in front of the jammer line at the time the pack whistle blows (or if she crosses the jammer line before the jammer whistle blows), but then realizes her mistake and repositions herself such that she is behind the jammer line at the time the jammer whistle blows?

Thanks
Treble Damage
Charm City