Zebra Huddleâ„¢

Non-Skating Officials => General NSO Discussion => Topic started by: Lucas on August 26, 2013, 06:02:36 pm

Title: 9.1.5.4 - The Scoreboard Operator posts [...] the penalties [...]
Post by: Lucas on August 26, 2013, 06:02:36 pm
[rule]9.1.5.4 - Scoreboard Operator. A game will have one scoreboard operator. The scoreboard operator posts the score from the scorekeeper and the penalties from the penalty tracker.[/rule]
(emphasis mine)

In all the bouts I've attended, the scoreboard operator was not involved in penalties. The penalties are displayed on an inside white board, managed by another NSO. Is this way compatible with the rule quoted above? What is the standard procedure? In particular, the wording (one scoreboard operator) seems to indicate that the scoreboard's duties are not expected to be split (by comparison with 9.1.5.2: "at least one penalty tracker").
Title: Re: 9.1.5.4 - The Scoreboard Operator posts [...] the penalties [...]
Post by: Darth Bling on August 26, 2013, 07:16:00 pm
Most scoreboards do not show penalties, so there's really no need for the Scoreboard Operator to do this. 

My guess is that intent of the rule is that if your scoreboard does support penalties, then you want your scoreboard operator to get the penalty information directly from the penalty tracker.
 
Title: Re: 9.1.5.4 - The Scoreboard Operator posts [...] the penalties [...]
Post by: Riff Reff on August 27, 2013, 01:31:04 pm
It's about getting the information from the NSO, not the referee.

Quote
When your scoreboard operator keeps taking the points directly off the jam refs
(http://media.tumblr.com/828e3aa436e99299705a195f22e4da86/tumblr_inline_mr99xbBItB1qz4rgp.gif)
Title: Re: 9.1.5.4 - The Scoreboard Operator posts [...] the penalties [...]
Post by: Q on January 22, 2014, 04:42:16 pm
I'm not aware of a single scoreboard that posts penalties. Rinxter can make them available, but I've never seen them posted anywhere in the same manner as times and scores.

My scoreboard program did post for a while, and nobody used it. I tried all kinds of ideas to get the penalties to the scoreboard operator: using binoculars, having a dedicated NSO just to run penalty information back and forth, and other stuff. It's just not practical.
Title: Re: 9.1.5.4 - The Scoreboard Operator posts [...] the penalties [...]
Post by: Major Wood on January 22, 2014, 04:46:26 pm
It's about getting the information from the NSO, not the referee.

Quote
When your scoreboard operator keeps taking the points directly off the jam refs
(http://media.tumblr.com/828e3aa436e99299705a195f22e4da86/tumblr_inline_mr99xbBItB1qz4rgp.gif)
Title: Re: 9.1.5.4 - The Scoreboard Operator posts [...] the penalties [...]
Post by: Q on January 22, 2014, 06:21:32 pm
It's about getting the information from the NSO, not the referee.

Okay...? Did I make it sound like I was trying get the information from refs? I wasn't.

Do you have some insight here? I tried a bunch of ways to do this, and couldn't find a workable solution. The least intrusive was binoculars (which were a pain). Otherwise there's an NSO crossing the track twice between every jam.
Title: Re: 9.1.5.4 - The Scoreboard Operator posts [...] the penalties [...]
Post by: Major Wood on January 22, 2014, 06:25:40 pm
Weird. What I typed didn't show up. Was on a really terrible wifi connection, so there's no telling what happened.

Anyway, I was saying that it isn't necessarily a bad thing. My scoreboard operator is trained to take score directly from jammer referees and only have the scorekeepers in communication with them if the score is incorrect.
Title: Re: 9.1.5.4 - The Scoreboard Operator posts [...] the penalties [...]
Post by: Q on January 22, 2014, 06:29:38 pm
Anyway, I was saying that it isn't necessarily a bad thing. My scoreboard operator is trained to take score directly from jammer referees and only have the scorekeepers in communication with them if the score is incorrect.

Heh. Yeah, that's a good method to use if you have an attentive scoreboard operator: everybody appreciates timely information (provided it's usually correct).

A scoreboard operator getting penalties from refs seems crazy difficult to pull off, though. I mean, heck, sometimes the wranglers don't even catch stuff.  ;)
Title: Re: 9.1.5.4 - The Scoreboard Operator posts [...] the penalties [...]
Post by: HIM-roid on January 22, 2014, 07:01:32 pm
Yes, getting the CORRECT information to who it needs to get to is an issue all in itself, let alone posting it other places that aren't required. I have no experience with Rinxter but as you said, it will show penalties in live time and their are other threads on how teams use this to communicate these. I would advise against it or at least let both teams know that this isn't official, the official "X" is kept "Y". Identifying this before a bout/scrimmage seems to eliminate a bunch of confusion and frustration.
Title: Re: 9.1.5.4 - The Scoreboard Operator posts [...] the penalties [...]
Post by: Q on January 22, 2014, 09:02:35 pm
I should have stated at the outset that my interest in this issue is that I'm the developer of scoreboard software geared toward smaller leagues.

I've determined (and I would guess everyone on zebrahuddle would agree) that posting penalties for fans--on the scoreboard--is a totally unrealistic proposition for smaller leagues.

Not only that, most larger leagues don't do it either.

If some new NSO goes looking for how to implement 9.1.5.4 and finds this thread, I want them to see that nobody actually expects the scoreboard operator to post penalties.

Not only that, it's more or less impossible to design a non-confusing scoreboard presentation that has that much information on it. I was tracking number of majors and minors (later just majors) per skater as a bar chart below the scores, and none of the fans I sampled understood what it was, nor did they care once I explained it. Just a raw number of penalties per team might look okay, but it's not a very useful statistic to present (were those 12 penalties one per skater, or 6 each for two skaters?)

Which brings me to the interesting observation that every WFTDA game played in the last 3+ years--even nationals--hasn't conformed to their own ruleset. And yet 9.1.5.4 has persisted across every revision that I've been around for.
Title: Re: 9.1.5.4 - The Scoreboard Operator posts [...] the penalties [...]
Post by: HIM-roid on January 22, 2014, 09:17:59 pm
I would suggest sending this to timeout.wftda.com. It might get some feedback for you.
Title: Re: 9.1.5.4 - The Scoreboard Operator posts [...] the penalties [...]
Post by: brainthee on January 26, 2014, 01:07:03 pm
I've been using Jamtracker for a while and find it great. Like already mentioned earlier in the thread, I get the scores from the refs so scores are up to date straight away but always confirm with the trackers at the end of each jam. This works in both our favors as it's a way for the trackers to confirm what they've got too.

As for penalty tracking on the scoreboard, Rinxter does indeed track that info put it's put in by the penalty trackers not the scoreboard guy. Infact if Rinxter is used fully, there is no need for a scoreboard operator (perhaps a need for a techy tho!!). I haven't actually used Rinxter in a real life game since it's quite a learning curve for a lot of NSOs but I think the idea is that the teams/officials can see who's got what. I know Rinxter can be configured to show a dedicated penalty scoreboard for each team.

But for smaller leagues/games, I'd imagine the inside whiteboard is sufficient?!
Title: Re: 9.1.5.4 - The Scoreboard Operator posts [...] the penalties [...]
Post by: ShoNuff on January 29, 2014, 07:30:56 pm
The reason to have the relay from jam ref to scorekeeper to scoreboard is to have multiple layers of checks.

It looks bad if the scoreboard regularly has to be corrected. If the scoreboard operator and the scorekeepers are watching the jam refs and both see the score, then when the scorekeeper tells the scoreboard operator what they saw, the scoreboard operator knows if that's what they also saw.

When the score is posted, it's been checked by acknowledgement from jam ref to scorekeeper and checked again by the exchange between scorekeeper and scoreboard.  Then it should get checked again at the end of the jam, and checked again when there is a timeout, and checked again at the end of the period.

Scoring problems can fast track to big problems so check, and check, and check, and check, ...  so that you don't have them.