Zebra Huddleâ„¢

WFTDA => General Ref Discussion => Topic started by: AdamSmasher on September 17, 2015, 03:03:54 pm

Title: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
Post by: AdamSmasher on September 17, 2015, 03:03:54 pm
Hey folks - I've got a new graphic I'd like some feedback on. This one's a little trickier than the prior two, because jammer lap points are a more complicated topic, and because there's definitely more than one effective way to explain them.  This is just one approach. 

That said, I'd be interested in feedback on how to make this graphic a) more accurate and b) cleaner and easier to follow.

Please don't share or distribute it outside of ZH yet - this is a work in progress, so lets keep it here until we've thrashed out the final version. Please feel free to share with whomever you like, as long as the attribution is left intact.

Jammer Lap Points Diagram (https://goo.gl/Dv2ZPD)

Usual disclaimers - this is not official, I am not speaking for WFTDA, accuracy not guaranteed, do not taunt honey badgers, current as of latest rule set, etc etc.
Title: Re: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
Post by: Stray Taco on September 17, 2015, 03:14:20 pm
I've never seen the light bulb analogy before, but that works great!
Title: Re: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
Post by: llama of death on September 17, 2015, 06:40:51 pm
I thought at the start of the jam, they are both in lapping position, thus lights both on. Not just whoever is in front. ??? am I wrong on that, or am I misunderstanding your graphic?
Title: Re: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
Post by: Stray Taco on September 17, 2015, 06:47:44 pm
I thought at the start of the jam, they are both in lapping position, thus lights both on. Not just whoever is in front. ??? am I wrong on that, or am I misunderstanding your graphic?

In the literal sense, yes they are both in position to lap, but I think what he's doing here works well, because if the jammer in front has her light on, she'll get a LP on her next pass. If the other jammer passes her, the lights switch and things come out right. It keeps it simple without having to remember exceptions. So, as an ability to explain the rule, not necessarily, but as a tool while on the track it's great.
Title: Re: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
Post by: AdamSmasher on September 17, 2015, 07:49:11 pm
What Taco said.  The simplest possible definition is "you have to pass the other jammer twice," but the start of the jam breaks this because the jammer starting in front *doesn't* have to do this. If you consider whoever's in front to already have lapping position, then it works, because if the jammer in back passes her, the position transfers.

The problem with saying "both have lapping position" is that it implies that the rear jammer can get a lap point *immediately* which is clearly not the case.
Title: Re: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
Post by: Kabong on September 18, 2015, 01:16:36 pm
I think it's a great analogy. The front jammer earns lapping position at the start. No issue. Minor comment (hehe, minors): I think in the first examples you should probably add the track lines as they are in the subsequent examples. Consistency and whatnot.
Title: Re: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
Post by: AdamSmasher on September 18, 2015, 02:06:28 pm
I think it's a great analogy. The front jammer earns lapping position at the start. No issue. Minor comment (hehe, minors): I think in the first examples you should probably add the track lines as they are in the subsequent examples. Consistency and whatnot.

Added.  Although... I considered whether I wanted to get into the can of worms about whether a NP/NP jammer pass nonetheless allows them to get lapping position.  (Clearly it's not a *point*, but does it "turn the light on?")

Then I remembered that the point of the graphic was to be a simple as possible, and decided to let that sleeping dog lie.
Title: Re: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
Post by: Kabong on September 18, 2015, 02:20:14 pm
I think it's a great analogy. The front jammer earns lapping position at the start. No issue. Minor comment (hehe, minors): I think in the first examples you should probably add the track lines as they are in the subsequent examples. Consistency and whatnot.

Added.  Although... I considered whether I wanted to get into the can of worms about whether a NP/NP jammer pass nonetheless allows them to get lapping position.  (Clearly it's not a *point*, but does it "turn the light on?")

Then I remembered that the point of the graphic was to be a simple as possible, and decided to let that sleeping dog lie.

I just brought that up to a group of friends after seeing your graphic. As the definition of JLP is
[rule]Jammer Lap Point
If one Jammer completely laps the opposing Jammer while both Jammers are on the track, that lapping Jammer will score an additional point each time the Jammer fully laps that opposing Jammer. Exceptions occur when the opposing Jammer is not on the track (see Section 7.2.7).
[/rule]
(Emphasis mine)
I would have to say (this is a weird new thought for me) that a non-box-related, regular ol' jammer-jammer NP/NP would not put that jammer in lapping position/turn on the light. Thoughts?
Title: Re: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
Post by: AdamSmasher on September 18, 2015, 02:25:46 pm

I just brought that up to a group of friends after seeing your graphic. As the definition of JLP is
[rule]Jammer Lap Point
If one Jammer completely laps the opposing Jammer while both Jammers are on the track, that lapping Jammer will score an additional point each time the Jammer fully laps that opposing Jammer. Exceptions occur when the opposing Jammer is not on the track (see Section 7.2.7).
[/rule]
(Emphasis mine)
I would have to say (this is a weird new thought for me) that a non-box-related, regular ol' jammer-jammer NP/NP would not put that jammer in lapping position/turn on the light. Thoughts?

My thought is that if both the first and second pass have to happen while both jammers are in bounds, then it's possible that both jammers could simultaneously be in a position to lap the other one.  This makes me very sad.  I think a NP/NP pass *should* count for lapping position, but only a legal pass should count for scoring. I think this is closer to the spirit of the rules on lap points. That said, I fully understand the opposing opinion.

I will also emphatically *not* be trying to work this painful level of subtlety into the graphic. :)
Title: Re: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
Post by: Kabong on September 18, 2015, 03:26:13 pm
I disagree spirit-of-the-rules(SOTR) -wise. I'd think jammer passes SHOULD mirror other passes, ie, if one jammer is off the track (but not a NOTT), that the lap should count as a pass/point as it would in any other consideration. It's a new thought to me, but I'd have to agree with (my interpretation of) the rules' position on NP/NP. That pass wouldn't count for lead or a point if the opposing jammer was instead a blocker, so maybe it shouldn't (ethically) count for a jammer pass? And I agree that you don't need to muddy up your lovely graphic with anything from this side convo. At least not yet.

Edit: and in regards to both being in lapping position simultaneously, I don't think they would. If a jammer gets that NP/NP and returns to the point where the opposing jammer is stuck, having taken a track-lap, it'd be as if no such pass happened, point-and pass- wise. They'd still be where they were when the NP/NP took place, with regards to light/lapping position.
Title: Re: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
Post by: BadgerBadger on September 20, 2015, 09:03:15 pm
I suggest the NP question be continued elsewhere. :)

Love this graphic, just like your previous ones. Very helpful!

My only point of feedback is that I had slight issues following the "what happens when a jammer comes back from the box?" section and initially read from top left to bottom left for some reason. It's entirely possible I'm just tired and dumb so I wouldn't read too much into it though.

I didn't get any blue jammer's references and found them slightly confusing.
Title: Re: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
Post by: AdamSmasher on September 21, 2015, 01:14:51 pm
I didn't get any blue jammer's references and found them slightly confusing.

Sigh.  I know I should take them out, but they entertain me.

Devo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_Choice_%28album%29)
Title: Re: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
Post by: Axis of Stevil on September 21, 2015, 08:24:44 pm
I didn't get any blue jammer's references and found them slightly confusing.

Sigh.  I know I should take them out, but they entertain me.

Devo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_Choice_%28album%29)

Perhaps put an asterisk next to the Devo jokes with an explanation at the bottom of the page that only Devo fans will get the joke?
Title: Re: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
Post by: AdamSmasher on September 22, 2015, 02:51:12 pm
I suggest the NP question be continued elsewhere. :)

Love this graphic, just like your previous ones. Very helpful!

My only point of feedback is that I had slight issues following the "what happens when a jammer comes back from the box?" section and initially read from top left to bottom left for some reason. It's entirely possible I'm just tired and dumb so I wouldn't read too much into it though.

I didn't get any blue jammer's references and found them slightly confusing.

Rookie graphic design mistake on my part - I centered more things than I should have.  Adjusted.

Also, I took Stevil's suggestion and added a footnote with a link to the Wikipedia page for Devo. Which is not a comment one normally would have expected for a graphic on lap points, I suppose.
Title: Re: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
Post by: AdamSmasher on September 28, 2015, 02:36:36 pm
OK, with no further feedback, I'm going to declare this my final version. Please feel free to share with anyone you like.
Title: Re: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
Post by: Stray Taco on March 13, 2017, 04:09:54 pm
Bumping this to ask the question:

Given the thread on unexpected rules changes (http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=5161) does this analogy still work? As far as I can tell, the answer is still yes, just with the rare caveat that kicks in during an "eat the baby with a Star Pass" scenario. This has been the simplest way to keep my brain straight on JLP and NOTT points for Jammers, so I want to make sure I don't inadvertently drop something.
Title: Re: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
Post by: Vanilla VICE on March 13, 2017, 04:32:25 pm
Yeah it not only works for Jammers still (at least I believe it still does), it works for blockers now also with the change from "you score on blockers when you pass them on your scoring pass" to "you score on blockers when you lap them" with the only caveat for blockers being if you hand a star cover over an opponent's wall that was never passed in an earned or unearned way, that still counts for lapping purposes.
Title: Re: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
Post by: Stray Taco on March 13, 2017, 04:34:30 pm
Yeah it not only works for Jammers still (at least I believe it still does), it works for blockers now also with the change from "you score on blockers when you pass them on your scoring pass" to "you score on blockers when you lap them" with the only caveat for blockers being if you hand a star cover over an opponent's wall that was never passed in an earned or unearned way, that still counts for lapping purposes.
Other caveat for blockers would be that the light doesn't turn off when a Blocker leaves the penalty box.

That's a LOT of lights, though!
Title: Re: Jammer Lap Points Graphic
Post by: AdamSmasher on March 13, 2017, 09:47:39 pm
Yeah it not only works for Jammers still (at least I believe it still does), it works for blockers now also with the change from "you score on blockers when you pass them on your scoring pass" to "you score on blockers when you lap them" with the only caveat for blockers being if you hand a star cover over an opponent's wall that was never passed in an earned or unearned way, that still counts for lapping purposes.

The point of the "light" analogy for lapping position is to make the point that it is mutually exclusive - only one jammer (at most) can have lapping position on the other jammer at a time.  If Jammer A passes Jammer B, you turn A's light on, and turn B's light off.  This metaphor isn't terribly useful for blockers.