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WFTDA => Hypothetical Rules Discussion => Topic started by: llama of death on February 08, 2016, 10:37:08 pm

Title: What The...Starpass?
Post by: llama of death on February 08, 2016, 10:37:08 pm
White jammer lines up infront of the Pivot line (foot hovering over the line), Jam starts and she passes the star backwards to the Pivot who was lined up right behind her touching the pivot line. New Jammer (was pivot) takes off.

My call:
Legal starpass, ne jammer is "behind" the pack on initial pass
Reason: starcover carries lap position and relevant passes with it.

Right or Wrong?

*No, I did not make this up, this is a play a local group was discussing as a viable way to "get lead"*
Title: Re: What The...Starpass?
Post by: Axis of Stevil on February 08, 2016, 10:52:04 pm
White jammer lines up infront of the Pivot line (foot hovering over the line), Jam starts and she passes the star backwards to the Pivot who was lined up right behind her touching the pivot line. New Jammer (was pivot) takes off.

My call:
Legal starpass, ne jammer is "behind" the pack on initial pass
Reason: starcover carries lap position and relevant passes with it.

Right or Wrong?

*No, I did not make this up, this is a play a local group was discussing as a viable way to "get lead"*


Legal star pass.  No penalty.  The jammer is all-but returned to the previous lap, and in doing so a star pass is not illegal.

However, the jammer was behind the engagement zone by almost an entire lap (if she wasn't already pulled back into it by virtue of starting the jam so far back from the engagement zone on her initial pass).  When the star pass takes place, the original and new jammers swap laps.  The new jammer is therefore down an entire lap behind the pack, and must skate an entire lap around and re-enter the engagement zone from the rear to begin her initial pass.

Once the new jammer skates counter-clockwise around the track and passes through the pack she will then enter her first scoring pass.
Title: Re: What The...Starpass?
Post by: Stray Taco on February 08, 2016, 11:43:04 pm
It should also be pointed out that even if she makes it around and through the pack before the other Jammer, she still wouldn't earn Lead Jammer. Per rule 2.5: "A Pivot-turned-Jammer can score points, but cannot gain Lead Jammer status."
Title: Re: What The...Starpass?
Post by: Hans Oferbach on March 18, 2016, 07:06:11 am
Wait, both skaters are legally positioned, so the pivot-now-jammer could skate forward, exit the EZ, and complete their initial (not lead due to star pass), and the jammer-now blocker would be given OOP warning and be required to accelerate til sprinting, and continue sprinting until they re-enter the EZ to avoid FTReturn.
What am I missing here?
Title: Re: What The...Starpass?
Post by: RawShark on March 18, 2016, 07:22:29 am
Wait, both skaters are legally positioned, so the pivot-now-jammer could skate forward, exit the EZ, and complete their initial (not lead due to star pass), and the jammer-now blocker would be given OOP warning and be required to accelerate til sprinting, and continue sprinting until they re-enter the EZ to avoid FTReturn.
What am I missing here?

The Jammer and the Pivot effectively trade places. The Pivot was at the front of the pack when the pass occurred; after the pass the ex-Jammer is at the front of the pack also. They don't get teleported a lap behind the pack.
Title: Re: What The...Starpass?
Post by: Hans Oferbach on March 18, 2016, 12:22:20 pm
So the jammer-now-blocker is not required to skate around to join the pack, merely stay where they are and carry on?
Title: Re: What The...Starpass?
Post by: Divide by Zero on March 18, 2016, 12:38:23 pm
So the jammer-now-blocker is not required to skate around to join the pack, merely stay where they are and carry on?

Yes
Title: Re: What The...Starpass?
Post by: The Sharmanator on March 18, 2016, 10:43:16 pm
So if the original jammer is actually lined up one lap back and you have to be in the pack while initiating a star pass, how is this a legal star pass when the jammer is actually one lap behind the pack?
Title: Re: What The...Starpass?
Post by: RawShark on March 18, 2016, 11:27:47 pm
So if the original jammer is actually lined up one lap back and you have to be in the pack while initiating a star pass, how is this a legal star pass when the jammer is actually one lap behind the pack?
The only requirements for a legal Star Pass is that the Jammer and Pivot are upright / in bounds / in the engagement zone. It's not relevant that the Jammer skated clockwise to get there.
Title: Re: What The...Starpass?
Post by: The Sharmanator on March 19, 2016, 03:47:00 pm
So if the original jammer is actually lined up one lap back and you have to be in the pack while initiating a star pass, how is this a legal star pass when the jammer is actually one lap behind the pack?
The only requirements for a legal Star Pass is that the Jammer and Pivot are upright / in bounds / in the engagement zone. It's not relevant that the Jammer skated clockwise to get there.

That's my question, is the jammer in the engagement zone if they are one lap behind the pack?  That seems impossible to me.  Not arguing the point just trying to clarify the point if the jammer is one lap behind the pack or not and if so how can the Jammer be in the engagement zone?
Title: Re: What The...Starpass?
Post by: FNZebra on March 19, 2016, 04:48:33 pm
You just answered your own q, Sharm.

The Jammer is never part of the pack, so what lap they are on regarding that of the pack isn't usually of interest. That doesn't mean the Jammer can't be in the EZ, though, even if they are up or down a lap compared to the pack.

We typically only pay attention to Jammer laps regarding lapping position & JLPs (and some cutting situations).
Title: Re: What The...Starpass?
Post by: Speedy Convalesce on March 19, 2016, 05:37:05 pm
If the jammer were not in the engagement zone when they are not in the same lap as the pack, no blocker would be allowed to engage them on a scoring pass. Obviously, this is neither the case nor desirable.
Title: Re: What The...Starpass?
Post by: The Sharmanator on March 19, 2016, 08:28:09 pm
Yep, both comments make sense.  I guess I should of thought about it a little harder LOL! 
Title: Re: What The...Starpass?
Post by: Hans Oferbach on March 20, 2016, 03:23:04 am
I have no problem with the legality of the pass. My biggest question is, once the pass has taken place and the pivot-now-jammer skates off with the star, is the initial pass complete when they exit the EZ?
Title: Re: What The...Starpass?
Post by: BadgerBadger on March 20, 2016, 12:51:39 pm
No. The initial pass is the jammers first pass THROUGH the pack, and starts with the jammer BEHIND the pack. See the glossary definitions for Initial Pass and Pass (noun).
Title: Re: What The...Starpass?
Post by: Speedy Convalesce on March 20, 2016, 12:52:08 pm
once the pass has taken place and the pivot-now-jammer skates off with the star, is the initial pass complete when they exit the EZ?

No. Before the SP the (old) jammer was on the pre-initial pass*. After the SP the (new) jammer is on the same pass, i.e. the pre-initial pass. So when they exit the EZ (to the front) they are on the initial pass.

*If the jammer lined up at the jammer line and skated clockwise after the whistle, this would be very obvious. But even if the jammer lines up immediately in front of the pivot line and the pack lines up immediately behind the pivot line, the jammer is considered to be behind the pack:
[rule]3.2.1 - At the start of a jam all Skaters must be in position with the Blockers in front of the Jammers.[/rule]
Title: Re: What The...Starpass?
Post by: Hans Oferbach on March 22, 2016, 01:08:33 pm
If this was not the jam start and was, say, a scoring lap, the jammer exits the EZ (completing the pass), and is pushed back into the EZ by the opposition jammer. The jammer then finds their pivot, behind them,  at the front of the pack. For whatever reason (not important) they pass the star legally, and the pivot-now-jammer skates forward and exits the engagement zone. Since the former jammer has already completed that pass, it can't be completed again, and therefore the pivot-now-jammer doesn't complete a pass until they come through the pack and exit the EZ, effectively exiting the EZ twice, but only really once because the former jammer had already completed the pass.
So at the jam start, should the pass happen at the front of the pack, it should be treated the same? Anyone have a wftda type answer here, rather than speculation and opinion?
Title: Re: What The...Starpass?
Post by: Major Puddles on March 22, 2016, 11:04:39 pm
2.1.2 and 3.2 both establish that the blockers are in front of the jammers in the lineup. Clearly that means that the Jammer is behind the blockers, even if they are just in front of the pivot line.

Then 2.5.5 states "The Pivot picks up where the previous Jammer left off". Which is behind the blockers. At least that's how I read the rules.

Roller Derby, where the magic of teleportation happens.
Title: Re: What The...Starpass?
Post by: RawShark on March 23, 2016, 01:38:42 am
If this was not the jam start and was, say, a scoring lap, the jammer exits the EZ (completing the pass), and is pushed back into the EZ by the opposition jammer. The jammer then finds their pivot, behind them,  at the front of the pack. For whatever reason (not important) they pass the star legally, and the pivot-now-jammer skates forward and exits the engagement zone. Since the former jammer has already completed that pass, it can't be completed again, and therefore the pivot-now-jammer doesn't complete a pass until they come through the pack and exit the EZ, effectively exiting the EZ twice, but only really once because the former jammer had already completed the pass.

This isn't quite accurate.

- Jammer on scoring pass 2
- Jammer exits EZ at front, completes scoring pass 2, starts scoring pass 3 (7.1.3.5)
- Jammer forced back into EZ by opposing, returns to scoring pass 2 (7.1.5.1) but cannot score any more points in that pass because they already completed it (7.2.2.1)
- Star pass, new-Jammer is on scoring pass 2 (2.5.5)
- new-Jammer exits EZ at front again, returns to scoring pass 3

Anyone have a wftda type answer here, rather than speculation and opinion?

Rules Committee has posted a reply on the WFTDA forum that agrees with the previous discussion in this thread. Unfortunately, the way it's been posted is "We agree with the consensus" - so although we can state that this is the Rules-endorsed answer, we can't really post any previous discussion without breaking the NDA.