Zebra Huddle™

WFTDA => Hypothetical Rules Discussion => Topic started by: Hans Oferbach on March 18, 2016, 07:01:44 am

Title: Mouthguard and dentures
Post by: Hans Oferbach on March 18, 2016, 07:01:44 am
Search gave me nothing, so apologies if reposting. Please direct me to the relevant post if it exists.
I've recently seem a discussion about a Skater who has dentures, doesn't want to skate with them in, but can't mould  a Mouthguard to their gums.
They're still required to wear a Mouthguard, right? Trying to get a valid answer for them...
Title: Re: Mouthguard and dentures
Post by: Belcifer on March 18, 2016, 08:38:30 am
[rule]9.1.2 Protective gear must include, at a minimum: wrist guards, elbow pads, knee pads,
mouth guards, and helmets.[/rule]

the mouth guard does not only protect the teeth but also help with concussion alleviation in some scenarios.
Title: Re: Mouthguard and dentures
Post by: Hans Oferbach on March 18, 2016, 12:19:37 pm
Yes, well that is something not only strongly debated by many, but also companies like SISU. While I agree it can aid risk reduction, and would be in the "no Mouthguard, no skate" category, I know the debate is a different discussion.  Question is, do you stop this toothless Skater from skating?
Title: Re: Mouthguard and dentures
Post by: Stray Taco on March 18, 2016, 12:56:25 pm
Yes, well that is something not only strongly debated by many, but also companies like SISU. While I agree it can aid risk reduction, and would be in the "no Mouthguard, no skate" category, I know the debate is a different discussion.  Question is, do you stop this toothless Skater from skating?
Yes, absolutely. First, rule 9.1.2 doesn't allow for any variation on the minimum requirements. And because this is a safety rule, I wouldn't want to assume liability for failing to enforce it if something happened.

Second, if the bout is covered by WFTDA insurance, a Skater not wearing a mouth guard could be considered a violation of the Safety Protocol and result in a denial of coverage by WFTDI if something was to happen.

[rule]WFTDA Safety Protocol
4.1. Skaters and officials must wear all protective gear (also referred to as “gear”) as
described in the most current version of the WFTDA Rules. Officials may forgo the use
of mouth guards.
[/rule]

Technically, I don't know if a HR could tell a Skater she couldn't be on the track, but they could highly recommend it if asked and explain what would happen if the Skater was on the track without a mouth guard. They'd be going to the penalty box for an Equipment Violation every time they lined up and a jam started until they either fouled out or put in a mouth guard.
Title: Re: Mouthguard and dentures
Post by: bmd (2113) on March 18, 2016, 02:25:50 pm
Quote
Technically, I don't know if a HR could tell a Skater she couldn't be on the track

*Tweet* Color - Number: Equipment violation. Mouth guard.
Title: Re: Mouthguard and dentures
Post by: Major Wood on March 18, 2016, 03:53:11 pm
[rule]9.1.2 Protective gear must include, at a minimum: wrist guards, elbow pads, knee pads,
mouth guards, and helmets.[/rule]

the mouth guard does not only protect the teeth but also help with concussion alleviation in some scenarios.

Just pulling this out, as it's something I've said a number of times.

There have been no studies that have proven that mouth guards have any effect on concussions. I believe there have been some that have shown that mouth guards have no effect on them whatsoever.
Title: Re: Mouthguard and dentures
Post by: Stray Taco on March 18, 2016, 03:57:24 pm
Quote
Technically, I don't know if a HR could tell a Skater she couldn't be on the track

*Tweet* Color - Number: Equipment violation. Mouth guard.
Exactly, which is what I said in the next sentence:
Quote
They'd be going to the penalty box for an Equipment Violation every time they lined up and a jam started until they either fouled out or put in a mouth guard.
What I meant is that they couldn't necessarily be prevented from lining up, but would be heading for the penalty box as soon as the jam started.
Title: Re: Mouthguard and dentures
Post by: llama of death on March 19, 2016, 11:26:22 pm
[rule]9.1.2 Protective gear must include, at a minimum: wrist guards, elbow pads, knee pads,
mouth guards, and helmets.[/rule]

the mouth guard does not only protect the teeth but also help with concussion alleviation in some scenarios.

Sorry, not true at all. Major mouth guard myth propetuated and "research" funded by the companies which hold stake in selling mouth guards which claimed to protect from concusion.  Independent study a has not been able to correlate a reduction in cuncussions in mouthguards and as such the governing bodies began cracking down on this claim as false advertising.
Title: Re: Mouthguard and dentures
Post by: llama of death on March 19, 2016, 11:31:15 pm
On topic, I would recomend they see an othedontist and get a mouthguards which complies with the rules but is not there.

If they literally have no teeth than this is an extreme situation not covered by the rules. If it was on a floor I was HR ING I would have to ask them to wear the mouth guard or not skate until WFTDA rules or WFTDA insurance chimes in with an exception or alternative.
Title: Re: Mouthguard and dentures
Post by: Major Puddles on March 20, 2016, 11:16:10 pm
I know this has become somewhat of a derail (but I feel like the OP has been answered), here is an interesting article regarding the use of a mouthguard in assessing a concussion.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl-news/4636247-concussion-research-color-changing-mouth-guards-test-helmets-measure-safety

Please, in no way am I saying that mouthguards help prevent concussions, but I do think this is an excellent use of existing equipment to aid in the prevention of further injury.
Title: Re: Mouthguard and dentures
Post by: Belcifer on March 21, 2016, 08:55:39 am
On topic, I would recomend they see an othedontist and get a mouthguards which complies with the rules but is not there.

If they literally have no teeth than this is an extreme situation not covered by the rules. If it was on a floor I was HR ING I would have to ask them to wear the mouth guard or not skate until WFTDA rules or WFTDA insurance chimes in with an exception or alternative.

whether the skater have teeth or not is not taken in account in the rules. it clearly states that you HAVE to have a mouthguard in place else suffer a penalty if you step on to the track on skates, so it is covered by the rules.

No mouthguard = no play
Title: Re: Mouthguard and dentures
Post by: Lucas on March 21, 2016, 10:56:12 am
No mouthguard = no play

Would you extend that to a skater who is missing one hand, and is unable to have a wrist guard on this side? (as the rules ask for Wrist guardS)
Title: Re: Mouthguard and dentures
Post by: Belcifer on March 21, 2016, 11:05:33 am
Would you extend that to a skater who is missing one hand, and is unable to have a wrist guard on this side? (as the rules ask for Wrist guardS)

No i would not since that does not impact other skaters at all while not having a mouthguard can affect the safety of others in play.
Also there is a difference between "unable" and "not wanting to".

and we do not force skaters to wear mouthguardS either...or helmetS.
Title: Re: Mouthguard and dentures
Post by: llama of death on March 21, 2016, 10:16:22 pm
.... while not having a mouthguard can affect the safety of others in play.
and we do not force skaters to wear mouthguardS either...or helmetS.

So in what way do you propose there is a saftey risk to others by a skater not having teeth by which to retain a mouthguard? (BTW denture adhesive would not hold up to a hit to the mouth with or without a mouth guard)

By listing it under required gear we are forcing them to wear it Nebu.
Title: Re: Mouthguard and dentures
Post by: Belcifer on March 22, 2016, 07:28:15 am

By listing it under required gear we are forcing them to wear it Nebu.

This is what i am getting at...
a skater without a hand is unable to wear a wrist guard but the skater in the OP does not want to wear the dentures so that a mouth guard can be used.


Title: Re: Mouthguard and dentures
Post by: Speedy Convalesce on March 22, 2016, 08:38:44 am
This is what i am getting at...
a skater without a hand is unable to wear a wrist guard but the skater in the OP does not want to wear the dentures so that a mouth guard can be used.

Why is deciding not to wear a prosthetic hand different from deciding not to wear prosthetic teeth?
Title: Re: Mouthguard and dentures
Post by: Belcifer on March 22, 2016, 09:28:33 am
This is what i am getting at...
a skater without a hand is unable to wear a wrist guard but the skater in the OP does not want to wear the dentures so that a mouth guard can be used.

Why is deciding not to wear a prosthetic hand different from deciding not to wear prosthetic teeth?

really? i have never seen such a level of nitpicking as in this thread...

never in the previous posts have the use of a prosthetic hand been raised.
Given the information from the OP the skater did not want to use  dentures but have them.

Should we then start to force skaters to wear multiple mouth guards and several helmets?
Title: Re: Mouthguard and dentures
Post by: Hans Oferbach on March 22, 2016, 12:56:27 pm
I believe the "wrist guards" argument to be somewhat misguided as a response to not really noticing the nuances of the plural. The ruleset also states "helmets" but you don't make a Skater wear a minimum of 2. "Wrist guards", like "helmets", refers to all skaters, not the individual, as does "Mouthguards". You wear a wrist guard for each of your wrists, and a Mouthguard for each of your mouths...  In the case of Mouthguards, One is enough. Zero is not.
Title: Re: Mouthguard and dentures
Post by: Speedy Convalesce on March 22, 2016, 01:18:41 pm
really?

Yes, that was a serious question. (And it has nothing to do with the plural used in the rules.)

Several people in this thread have said that 9.1.2 is a rule that we have to apply to the letter, with no official's discretion allowed. (Stray Taco in #3, llama in #8 and #13, you in #10) Now you say, that in case of a missing hand, such official's discretion is suddenly allowed. But I can't see, how the situations differ:

Any injury risk mouthguards are claimed to reduce is not present or similarly reduced, when the player has no teeth:

So the only reason requiring the player to wear a mouthguard is because we have to abide by the letter of the rules.
But then we also have to require her to wear a wrist guard, even if she has no hand, because otherwise we would be deviating from the letter of the rules. So if she needs to wear a prosthetic hand to wear a wristguard, we have to require her to do that, just as we do with the dentures. And if she doesn't have a prosthetic hand (that is suitable for roller derby), we can't allow her to play.
Title: Re: Mouthguard and dentures
Post by: bmd (2113) on March 22, 2016, 01:39:43 pm
Regarding the number of wrist guards worn, the metric that makes the most sense to me was explained as "does the skater have a wrist guard on all of their wrists?" If the answer is yes then they meet the requirement.

I think the same applies here  - "does the skater have a mouth guard in all of their mouths?"

9.1.2 says nothing about "teeth guards."
Title: Re: Mouthguard and dentures
Post by: Speedy Convalesce on March 22, 2016, 03:29:14 pm
So french speaking players don't need a "protège-dents" (literally: teeth guard), if they don't have teeth? And which body part do we count to determine the number of helmets needed by a player?

I think it is better to go by the body part that is to be protected by the piece of equipment rather than the part it is named after in english. This still fits with your metric for wrist guards, but it makes a difference for mouth guards.
Title: Re: Mouthguard and dentures
Post by: BadgerBadger on March 22, 2016, 03:46:04 pm
While it might make sense in this particular situation to allow a skater without teeth to play without a mouth guard, I very much doubt many head referees would be comfortable making that call, since it would go against the WFTDA rules and Safety Protocol. This could in theory mean making an otherwise Sanctioned game non-regulation, but more worryingly for US officials, my understanding is that it could mean WFTDA insurance may not cover the skater in question and if an injury would occur, it could conceivably open up the bout organizers (and possibly the referee?) to legal action. I'm not from the US and I don't know much about WFTDA insurance or US law, but that's what I've been told. It may be a lesser concern for a non-WFTDA game in a less litigious country with lower health care costs.

So, in the absence of a clear statement from WFTDA that skaters are not required to wear protective gear for body parts that they don't have, I think it's understandable if officials would be very hesitant to make decisions on their own to exempt skaters. Even if it seems to make sense.

And honestly, personally I have no idea what would make sense. Does a mouth guard help protect other things than teeth? It it safer to have dentures and a mouth guard than no mouth guard? Can a skater with just one arm safely play roller derby, and still appropriately protect themselves when falling? I don't consider myself qualified to answer any of these questions. So if I had to make a decision on the track as head referee, I'd be forced to weigh the principle of "safety first" against the principle of inclusion, and in that case I'd have to go with safety, i.e. enforcing the rules strictly.
Title: Re: Mouthguard and dentures
Post by: Major Wood on March 22, 2016, 04:19:02 pm
Lets please watch tone. This discussion is fine, but I've read a couple posts where the tone can be read as hostile. Please be aware of how others might read your words.

Carry on.
Title: Re: Mouthguard and dentures
Post by: llama of death on March 22, 2016, 07:05:21 pm
While it might make sense in this particular situation to allow a skater without teeth to play without a mouth guard, I very much doubt many head referees would be comfortable making that call, since it would go against the WFTDA rules and Safety Protocol. This could in theory mean making an otherwise Sanctioned game non-regulation, but more worryingly for US officials, my understanding is that it could mean WFTDA insurance may not cover the skater in question and if an injury would occur, it could conceivably open up the bout organizers (and possibly the referee?) to legal action. I'm not from the US and I don't know much about WFTDA insurance or US law, but that's what I've been told. It may be a lesser concern for a non-WFTDA game in a less litigious country with lower health care costs.

So, in the absence of a clear statement from WFTDA that skaters are not required to wear protective gear for body parts that they don't have, I think it's understandable if officials would be very hesitant to make decisions on their own to exempt skaters. Even if it seems to make sense.

And honestly, personally I have no idea what would make sense. Does a mouth guard help protect other things than teeth? It it safer to have dentures and a mouth guard than no mouth guard? Can a skater with just one arm safely play roller derby, and still appropriately protect themselves when falling? I don't consider myself qualified to answer any of these questions. So if I had to make a decision on the track as head referee, I'd be forced to weigh the principle of "safety first" against the principle of inclusion, and in that case I'd have to go with safety, i.e. enforcing the rules strictly.

This is a very well articulated version of my thoughts on the matter. I would ask WFTDA-I to weigh in and give us an option. Until then mouth-guards required despite the fact that I seriously doubt a normal mouthguard would have any positive effects on the saftey of a skater wearing dentures.

Now also interesting would be the input of an orthodontic surgeon/ER/researcher with information on the effects of such a situation, risks, and possibly a customized solution.

Maybe dentures that are designed to fulfill the intended role of a mouth-guard (regardless of if it actually improves saftey, IE: cushion only helmets like the sweatsaver)
Title: Re: Mouthguard and dentures
Post by: Noah Fence on March 25, 2016, 10:46:56 pm
I have refereed a game where there was a skater with no teeth, top and bottom. She wore a mouth guard as per the rules, and informed the referees before the game. The mouth guard that she had was one of those bulky ones that don't mold, and she didn't wear it with her dentures, to avoid possible breakage or a wire getting jammed into her palate. Between her situation, the rule 9.1.2, and common sense, the best solution would be to refer said skater in the OP to an orthodontist for correct protective gear. The skater's solution in my example worked quite well for her particular scenario, albeit a temporary one, and only applicable with no teeth. It hindered her ability to communicate with her teammates during a jam, but that is the team's problem, not the referees'.