Zebra Huddle™

Older Rulesets => 5/26/2010 Rules => Rules Discussion 5/26/2010 => Topic started by: JoeXCore on November 03, 2009, 07:33:58 pm

Title: Initiating a block using the forearm.
Post by: JoeXCore on November 03, 2009, 07:33:58 pm
It's illegal... I thought this was clear.

But apparently refs that I've trained and/or trained with have been corrected by their head refs for calling penalties for a girl initiating a block using the forearm. The instance at question is when the forearm is resting firmly against the body.
Title: Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
Post by: Stegoscorus on November 03, 2009, 07:43:38 pm
If a forearm is pulled into the chest, it's considered an extension of the chest.  They can make initial contact with their forearms in this manner. 

If the forearm is out in front/at the side of the skater, and she initiates a block with it, call it based on impact.

If she initiates with the forearm tucked in to the body, but pushes off with the forearm during the block, call it based on impact. 
Title: Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
Post by: howie~swerve on November 03, 2009, 08:31:45 pm
Yah that was me.  Joe's so diplomatic.

If a forearm is pulled into the chest, it's considered an extension of the chest.

I swear the HRs I've worked with split 50/50 on this, but the more experienced tend towards Steg's position.

It flows naturally from [rule] No Impact 6.3.5   Contact made with the forearms when forearms are pulled in to the body to absorb a hit.[/rule] but I know people quibble about the "to absorb a hit" part of that.  There are two positions:

Opinion 1: 6.3.5. is only there to clarify that skaters don't get forearm penalties when opponents hit them in the forearms.  This may seem redundant with the concept of initiating contact, but this kind of redundancy happens sometimes in the "No Impact" parts of Section 6 (e.g., 6.12.2, 6.14.1).

Opinion 2: 6.3.5 allows a skater to make a hit, and absorb the impact of her own hit, with her forearms as long as they are drawn in.  This is consistent with an "exclusive" reading of 6.3.1 that says Forearm penalties are ONLY to be given in the event of a "grab, hold or push".


Example from last night:  Red Jammer comes up on Green Blocker and lands a hard block on Green's upper arm, using her forearms as a blocking surface, while they are tightly drawn into her chest.  Green is pushed to one side and Red Jammer skates on.

I'm simply not sure whether this can be called "contact made... to absorb a hit".  Suppose it can, but isn't it more accurately described as "contact made to execute a hit"?   I'd like to hear other folks' interpretations.

howie~
Title: Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
Post by: Johnny Zebra on November 03, 2009, 09:29:31 pm
I swear the HRs I've worked with split 50/50 on this, but the more experienced tend towards Steg's position.

Yep. The leaning is towards letting them play. Forearms as part of block without extension will generally be let go.

~j.z.
Title: Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
Post by: Darkjester on November 03, 2009, 09:36:04 pm
The biggest portion of JZ's quote above is the "without extension".

If you have the arm bent and tucked tight against the body, part of the forearm, bicep will hit. If you kick out the elbow ala 'chicken wing', the forearm will be the front part and an illegal blocking zone.

Title: Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
Post by: noidd on November 03, 2009, 11:19:47 pm
I swear the HRs I've worked with split 50/50 on this, but the more experienced tend towards Steg's position.

Yep. The leaning is towards letting them play. Forearms as part of block without extension will generally be let go.

~j.z.

I tend to be very literal (as captain literal).

[rule]
6.3.7.1   A slight but observable push with the hands or forearms.
6.3.7.2   A block initiated with the shoulder, in which there is either a simultaneous or subsequent push with the forearm. A push is indicated by the initiating skater extending her arms while making contact with the forearms, resulting in the receiving skater being propelled forward or sideways.
[/rule]

[rule]
6.3.9.1   Contact with hands or forearms, as indicated by the initiating skater extending her arms, resulting in the receiving skater being propelled forwards or sideways.
6.3.9.2   Use of hands or forearms to grab or hold an opposing skater, either impeding that skater’s mobility, causing that skater to lose advantage, or forcing that skater to the ground.
[/rule]

The rules not only tell you what the criteria is:
observable push

but also how to tell if it's happening:

as indicated by the initiating skater extending her arms

Title: Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
Post by: mick hawkins on November 04, 2009, 12:21:56 am
firstly, i really appreciate hearing how the experienced wftda refs are doing things and being up-to-date


secondly, noidd, mate, love the way you're looking at this

ive always considered

[rule]Minor Penalty
6.3.7 Illegal forearm or hand contact to an opponent falling within the legal target zones that forces the receiving opposing skater off balance, forward, and/or sideways but does not cause her to lose her relative position. This includes:
6.3.7.1 A slight but observable push with the hands or forearms.[/rule]

to say that a push with the forearms are held against the chest - is still a push with the forearms
that is, the forearm doesnt need to be extended for a push to occur

since

[rule]6.3.3.1 The initiating skater extends her arm during contact [/rule]
was just one criteria to determine a push had occured

and could be seen as distinct to
[rule]6.3.3.2 The receiving skater is propelled forwards or sideways[/rule]
meaning you dont need both criteria to assess a push with the forearms has taken place

that is, a push with the forearms held to the chest - even without the arm being extended - is still, literally, a push with the forearms


again, really appreciate  hearing how this is being called


Title: Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
Post by: noidd on November 04, 2009, 12:26:15 am
firstly, i really appreciate hearing how the experienced wftda refs are doing things and being up-to-date

Full disclosure - I am neither a WFTDA ref nor very experienced but I'm glad you appreciated it.
Title: Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
Post by: mick hawkins on November 04, 2009, 12:29:29 am
yeah mate no worries

i meant that as a comment on the discussion as a whole
Title: Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
Post by: ttjustice on November 04, 2009, 06:37:15 pm
I swear the HRs I've worked with split 50/50 on this, but the more experienced tend towards Steg's position.

Yep. The leaning is towards letting them play. Forearms as part of block without extension will generally be let go.

~j.z.

This how I was told to interpret it as well.  Still our players are quite bad about "pushing off" at the end of the block and drawing the penalty.
Title: Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
Post by: howie~swerve on November 04, 2009, 08:20:49 pm
ive always considered

[rule]Minor Penalty
6.3.7 Illegal forearm or hand contact to an opponent falling within the legal target zones that forces the receiving opposing skater off balance, forward, and/or sideways but does not cause her to lose her relative position. This includes:
6.3.7.1 A slight but observable push with the hands or forearms.[/rule]

to say that a push with the forearms are held against the chest - is still a push with the forearms
that is, the forearm doesnt need to be extended for a push to occur

since

[rule]6.3.3.1 The initiating skater extends her arm during contact [/rule]
was just one criteria to determine a push had occured

and could be seen as distinct to
[rule]6.3.3.2 The receiving skater is propelled forwards or sideways[/rule]
meaning you dont need both criteria to assess a push with the forearms has taken place

that is, a push with the forearms held to the chest - even without the arm being extended - is still, literally, a push with the forearms

Given mick's rules-text argument, which I think is sound -- how do we justify JZ's position, which is the most common practice in upper levels?  Just looking for something clear in the text which doesn't (although I like noidd's work too) string together several parts of the rules which aren't necessarily referring to the same context.

What I really think it comes down it is two lines:
[rule]No Impact/No Penalty 6.3.5   Contact made with the forearms when forearms are pulled in to the body to absorb a hit.[/rule]
Read alone, this supports JZ's position as long as you accept that "executing a block" falls under the definition of "absorbing a hit."

but if you read this together with the very next line:
[rule]6.3.6     A block initiated with the shoulder in which there is forearm contact to the opponent but no observable push with the forearm.[/rule]
... it suggests that 6.3.5 doesn't apply when there is contact AND a push.  Then this supports mick's position as long as you accept that "pushing with the forearm" doesn't have to include "extending the forearm". (per 6.3.3, it clearly can include extending the forearm, but that list isn't necessarily exclusive.)

I actually don't see a way to resolve this in the rules.  I'm happy to abide by the dicta of senior refs, but I'd love a citation to chapter and verse.
Title: Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
Post by: Stegoscorus on November 04, 2009, 08:47:22 pm
that is, a push with the forearms held to the chest - even without the arm being extended - is still, literally, a push with the forearms


again, really appreciate  hearing how this is being called


But if we consider tucked-in forearms an extension of the chest, this is really a push with the chest.  I see what you're saying Mick (and Howie), but my interpretation has been that pushing off with the forearms means the forearms are extended from the body. 

I think that the rules as they're written support us calling it this way. 
Title: Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
Post by: noidd on November 04, 2009, 09:27:37 pm
Given mick's rules-text argument, which I think is sound -- how do we justify JZ's position,

Like this:

[rule]
6.3.2 Incidental forearm contact between skaters is acceptable.
[/rule]

If the forearm is pulled into the chest then the contribution due to the forearm is incidental.

Thusly, no penalty.
Title: Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
Post by: mick hawkins on November 04, 2009, 10:17:42 pm
isnt incidental contact just referring to "rubbing" forearms while skating?
... not contact that has impact


stego, i like your thought...

Quote
interpretation has been that pushing off with the forearms means the forearms are extended from the body. 
that could cover it really.

being extended there's greater reach - even if the forearm is fixed and not moving during the contact

before hearing about this i would have previously said that there's not much difference between contact with a fixed extended forearm and one thats held to the chest
... but i see that there is (or can be)

interesting - ive not considered this before



EDIT: just wanted to add in that im looking at interpretations of the rules and how they support the practice... As Howie says "I'm happy to abide by the dicta of senior refs".
Title: Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
Post by: howie~swerve on November 05, 2009, 12:37:41 am
If the forearm is pulled into the chest then the contribution due to the forearm is incidental.

Thusly, no penalty.


Key concept, contribution.  I can definitely live with that. 

h~
Title: Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
Post by: mick hawkins on November 05, 2009, 12:40:01 am
right... contribution, i missed that first time around

sounds good
Title: Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
Post by: Brother Grim on November 09, 2009, 03:01:03 am
isnt incidental contact just referring to "rubbing" forearms while skating?
... not contact that has impact

But if you look at 6.4 (Blocking with the head) all but one of the points refer to "incidental" contact, which when coupled with this discussion implies (to me, anyway) incidental contact is to be evaluated at any point in the game, regardless of how it occurs. And if it's specifically referred to in the rules, then there must be a reason.

When I read the rules for the very first time, the Forearms section seemed like a logical inclusion to stop pushing, which pretty much makes for a free-for-all. Try to think back to before you were able to pull apart the rules*. If you reduce this section to quite simply say, "You can't push with your forearms," then would you have really considered bumping into someone with your arms pulled in as a push?

On a side note this point has always sat funny with me:

[rule]6.3.3.2 The receiving skater is propelled forwards or sideways[/rule]

Don't the laws of physics essentially say that if one moving force hits a second, then the energy from the first will transfer to the second thus causing it to move in the same direction? (Roughly... physics wasn't my thing...). So really, it isn't an indication that a push has occurred, just that contact with a moving force has occurred.



*I find this often helps if I start to get too bogged down. Thinking about what the main reason for something being a penalty is sometimes makes it clearer. Forest, trees, and all that.
Title: Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
Post by: Major Wood on November 09, 2009, 03:56:57 am
On a side note this point has always sat funny with me:

[rule]6.3.3.2 The receiving skater is propelled forwards or sideways[/rule]

Don't the laws of physics essentially say that if one moving force hits a second, then the energy from the first will transfer to the second thus causing it to move in the same direction? (Roughly... physics wasn't my thing...). So really, it isn't an indication that a push has occurred, just that contact with a moving force has occurred.

It is important to think of the rules here as hierarchical. 6.3.3.1 is a subset of 6.3.3
[rule]   6.3.3   During forearm contact between skaters, the following are indications that a push has occurred:[/rule]

Before 6.3.3, there is 6.3.2

[rule]6.3.2   Incidental forearm contact between skaters is acceptable.[/rule]

So, the thought process is this:

Title: Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
Post by: Darkjester on November 09, 2009, 04:51:15 am
Man, I love that flow-chart.. I wish it were as simple as that to teach ALL the penalty procedures to my refs in training.

Title: Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
Post by: Brother Grim on November 09, 2009, 11:06:56 pm
So, the thought process is this:

*insert flow chart*


Now THAT makes so much more sense. I can definitely apply that logic in the future.
Title: Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
Post by: noidd on November 10, 2009, 01:35:01 pm

<ul>
<li>See forearm contact</li>
<li>Decide if contact is incidental
<ul>
<li>If incidental:
<ul>
<li>No Impact/No Penalty</li>
</ul></li>
<li>If not Incidental:
<ul>
<li>Did the blocked skater get propelled as a result of an extended forearm?
<ul><li>If no:
<ul><li>No Impact/No Penalty</li></ul></li>
<li>If yes:
<ul><li>Determine impact</li></ul></li></ul></li>
</ul</ul>


I tend to view "Did the blocked skater get propelled as a result of an extended forearm?" to be my definition of "If Incidental".

Title: Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
Post by: Ref Concrete. on November 19, 2012, 11:20:28 am
So what IS the verdict?!?!
Title: Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
Post by: Darkjester on November 19, 2012, 08:39:43 pm
If the forearm is tucked into the body, its considered part of the body. Also the thread in question was from 2009.
Title: Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
Post by: Nick Bergus on November 19, 2012, 08:44:14 pm
Also note that the rules update (are we calling them Jan. 1, 2013?) has removed the language "to absorb a hit."
Title: Re: Initiating a block using the forearm.
Post by: Darkjester on November 19, 2012, 08:49:53 pm
Jan. 1, 2013."
They are called by the date as of the Dec 2009 set.