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Older Rulesets => 3.x Rules => Rules Discussion 3.x => Topic started by: mick hawkins on January 23, 2009, 10:24:08 pm

Title: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: mick hawkins on January 23, 2009, 10:24:08 pm

If she jumps from in bounds and lands out of bounds, I don't see grounds to issue a penalty.  Unless she specifically jumped to avoid a block, or gained momentum while she was out there, we can't give her a Skating Out penalty just for being out of bounds. 


sooo... if a skater skates OOB for no good reason, just of her own accord, you dont issue a skating OOB penalty?
Title: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: Darkjester on January 24, 2009, 04:58:17 pm
Depends on the effect.

Minor Penalty
6.2.9.3 Skating out-of-bounds in an attempt to avoid a block.
6.2.9.4 Skating out-of-bounds to maintain or increase speed.
Major Penalty
6.2.9.5 Skating across the track infield in a manner which substantially cuts short the lap
distance. It is not necessary to pass an in-bounds skater to commit a ‘skating out-ofbounds’
major penalty.


If they just skate out of bounds, not to avoid a block, and they don't maintain or increase speed, i.e. Stepping around the corner they just step out of bounds and back in, but not in front of anyone, its just a oops.

However..

If the Jammer skates out of bounds, prior to reaching the Engagement Zone (20' of the pack) during the initial pass, she nullifies herself from being Lead Jammer.
Title: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: mick hawkins on January 25, 2009, 12:17:44 am
sure
however you missed the bit where it's stated...

6.2.9 SKATING OUT-OF-BOUNDS
Skaters must remain in-bounds. No part of the skater's skate(s) may touch the ground
outside the track boundary.


i'm not sure how you've come to the conclusion that any reason not listed means no impact... let alone calling it an "oops"?

Title: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: Stegoscorus on January 25, 2009, 12:32:02 am
Precisely!  No impact, no penalty.

And even in the case of the jammer getting knocked out before reaching the Engagement Zone: there's no penalty on her, she just can't be Lead.
Title: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: mick hawkins on January 25, 2009, 12:44:46 am
yes of course --  no impact = no penalty

i dont think you got my point though
Title: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: Darkjester on January 25, 2009, 01:54:11 pm
Ok, so what would you penalize her with?

Stepping out of bounds in a situation which does not constitute the above (first page) Minor-Major clarifications, means that you are 'creating' a punishment.

If she steps out of bounds to avoid a block. Minor
If she steps out of bounds to maintain or increase speed. Minor

If she cuts across the in-field( thought I would like a better description than " substantially cuts short the lap"  Major.

There is nothing about "Skater steps out of bounds and right back in without maintaining/increasing speed'='s a Punishment.

Title: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: Ballistic Whistle on January 26, 2009, 04:31:08 pm
Ok, so what would you penalize her with?

Stepping out of bounds in a situation which does not constitute the above (first page) Minor-Major clarifications, means that you are 'creating' a punishment.

If she steps out of bounds to avoid a block. Minor
If she steps out of bounds to maintain or increase speed. Minor

If she cuts across the in-field( thought I would like a better description than " substantially cuts short the lap"  Major.

There is nothing about "Skater steps out of bounds and right back in without maintaining/increasing speed'='s a Punishment.
My understanding on this one is the same as Chug's. Those examples of minors and major impact are just that - examples. They are by no means an exhaustive list of every type of penalty in the rules.

If skater's were allowed to skate out of bounds of their own free will without missing or avoiding a block the wording of this section should probably be less definite:

"Skaters must remain in-bounds. No part of the skater's skate(s) may touch the ground outside the track boundary."
Title: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: Riff Reff on January 26, 2009, 04:50:59 pm
Quote
Stepping out of bounds in a situation which does not constitute the above (first page) Minor-Major clarifications, means that you are 'creating' a punishment.

Am I creating a punishment if a skater skates OOB passing the penalty box where another player is standing and about to take off?
I would say that's major impact - major penalty... Or do I have to wait until there's an interference and then it's OOB blocking?
Title: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: Major Wood on January 26, 2009, 04:57:42 pm
If I'm understanding your question properly, you would need to wait for an actual block. She would need to impede the skater coming out of the box. If she does, it is not necessarily a major. You have to judge impact based on the OOB impact guidelines.
Title: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: Riff Reff on January 26, 2009, 05:10:21 pm
given the skater did not attempt to avoid a block, she is not maintaining/increasing speed, she's not cutting through the infield...

my question is: when does the skating OOB start to have an impact?

it refers a little bit to this: http://zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=7.msg1128#msg1128

Title: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: Darkjester on January 27, 2009, 01:42:23 am
Ok, so what would you penalize her with?

Stepping out of bounds in a situation which does not constitute the above (first page) Minor-Major clarifications, means that you are 'creating' a punishment.

If she steps out of bounds to avoid a block. Minor
If she steps out of bounds to maintain or increase speed. Minor

If she cuts across the in-field( thought I would like a better description than " substantially cuts short the lap"  Major.

There is nothing about "Skater steps out of bounds and right back in without maintaining/increasing speed'='s a Punishment.
My understanding on this one is the same as Chug's. Those examples of minors and major impact are just that - examples. They are by no means an exhaustive list of every type of penalty in the rules.

If skater's were allowed to skate out of bounds of their own free will without missing or avoiding a block the wording of this section should probably be less definite:

"Skaters must remain in-bounds. No part of the skater's skate(s) may touch the ground outside the track boundary."


Same question then ( not meant in a sarcastic tone just a general one)

What do you penalize her with?

There is nothing stating whether its considered no impact/minor impact/Major impact, such as the other penalty definitions.
Title: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: Riff Reff on January 27, 2009, 08:04:40 am
it should remind myself a little more of "no impact!"... for the sake of the game.. seems like after two days of intense rules study I have become a little "enforcement maniac"... thx!  ;)
Title: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: Ballistic Whistle on January 27, 2009, 09:09:25 am
Same question then ( not meant in a sarcastic tone just a general one)

What do you penalize her with?

There is nothing stating whether its considered no impact/minor impact/Major impact, such as the other penalty definitions.
How do you penalise someone who blocks without stepping or skating?

That illegality is listed under General Blocking, but not strictly covered under any Penalty Category.

And in answer to your question I'd issue her a Skating out of bounds minor penalty (as that's the section I'm drawing the rules from), with a potential upgrade to a major if she re-enters the track in such a manner that significantly cuts short the lap distance.
Title: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: Major Wood on January 27, 2009, 12:58:58 pm
How do you penalise someone who blocks without stepping or skating?

That illegality is listed under General Blocking, but not strictly covered under any Penalty Category.

And in answer to your question I'd issue her a Skating out of bounds minor penalty (as that's the section I'm drawing the rules from), with a potential upgrade to a major if she re-enters the track in such a manner that significantly cuts short the lap distance.

It should be called consistent with the impact guidelines for most other penalties. Determine how much the blocked skater was affected.
Was she knocked to the ground? Major
Did she only stumble, but not lose her relative position? Minor
Was she not noticeably affected? No impact

As far as what she would be called for, that's a harder question. Best I can think of after being up for 5 minutes is gross misconduct, but that doesn't feel right.
Title: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: Nails on January 27, 2009, 01:19:44 pm
Depends on the effect.

Minor Penalty
6.2.9.3 Skating out-of-bounds in an attempt to avoid a block.
6.2.9.4 Skating out-of-bounds to maintain or increase speed.
Major Penalty
6.2.9.5 Skating across the track infield in a manner which substantially cuts short the lap
distance. It is not necessary to pass an in-bounds skater to commit a ‘skating out-ofbounds’
major penalty.


If they just skate out of bounds, not to avoid a block, and they don't maintain or increase speed, i.e. Stepping around the corner they just step out of bounds and back in, but not in front of anyone, its just a oops.

However..

If the Jammer skates out of bounds, prior to reaching the Engagement Zone (20' of the pack) during the initial pass, she nullifies herself from being Lead Jammer.


Actually, as far as I know, you can ONLY skate out of bounds to avoid a downed skater or get blocked out of bounds or go to the penalty box (hopefully didn't miss anything) so everything else is going to earn you a sob penalty.

As far as jumping from in bounds and landing oob goes...seems to me like it should be treated like sob and as long as you didn't do it to avoid a downed skater, get blocked out during, or do it to get a jump on your trip to the box you should get a penalty for it...but until just now I'd never really given it much thought so...? I'm interested to read more about this.
Title: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: Ballistic Whistle on January 27, 2009, 05:59:06 pm
@Wood - I was just providing another instance whereby a valid penalty is not directly listed as one of the impact examples, or in this instance, even listed under a penalty category. FYI - I call it an IP, but that doesn't feel right either - Definitely not a GM in my book as they're always punishable by Major or greater.

Actually, as far as I know, you can ONLY skate out of bounds to avoid a downed skater or get blocked out of bounds or go to the penalty box
What's the rationale for allowing someone to skate out of bounds to avoid a downed skater? I have a feeling you may be referring to the Cutting Track section on who you're allowed to cut. I'd say if someone skated out of bounds (without being blocked or missing a block) to cut around a downed skater I'd still give them an SOOB, but wouldn't give them a CT.
Title: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: JoeXCore on January 27, 2009, 06:06:59 pm
It's legal until it's illegal. SOB penalties should only be issued when....

Minor Penalty
6.2.9.3 Skating out-of-bounds in an attempt to avoid a block.
6.2.9.4 Skating out-of-bounds to maintain or increase speed.
Major Penalty
6.2.9.5 Skating across the track infield in a manner which substantially cuts short the lap
distance. It is not necessary to pass an in-bounds skater to commit a ‘skating out-ofbounds’
major penalty.
Title: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: Nails on January 27, 2009, 06:18:40 pm
Actually, as far as I know, you can ONLY skate out of bounds to avoid a downed skater or get blocked out of bounds or go to the penalty box
What's the rationale for allowing someone to skate out of bounds to avoid a downed skater? I have a feeling you may be referring to the Cutting Track section on who you're allowed to cut. I'd say if someone skated out of bounds (without being blocked or missing a block) to cut around a downed skater I'd still give them an SOOB, but wouldn't give them a CT.

The rational would be, if you only have a choice between skating into a downed skater and possibly hurting them/yourself, or skating out of bounds to avoid the situation, you should choose the latter and not be penalized for it.
Of course I *thought* this was in the rules but haven't been able to locate it so please speak up and correct me if I am wrong so I can handle this situation appropriately come bout day.
Title: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: Ballistic Whistle on January 27, 2009, 06:29:07 pm
It's legal until it's illegal. SOB penalties should only be issued when....

Minor Penalty
6.2.9.3 Skating out-of-bounds in an attempt to avoid a block.
6.2.9.4 Skating out-of-bounds to maintain or increase speed.
Major Penalty
6.2.9.5 Skating across the track infield in a manner which substantially cuts short the lap
distance. It is not necessary to pass an in-bounds skater to commit a ‘skating out-ofbounds’
major penalty.
On the contrary, I'm going to quote the first paragraph of the penalties section again:

"The following penalties are addressed in detail in the sections listed below. These sections hold specific examples that are to be followed explicitly. Illegal actions not specified below must be enforced using these specifics as guiding examples." (Focus added by me).

That implies that there are illegal actions that are not specified in the penalties section.
Title: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: JoeXCore on January 27, 2009, 06:33:15 pm
This is a good point but it is my opinion that there are no situations for skating out of bounds not covered by the examples which are illegal.

You're specific example of cutting around a downed blocker is specifically listed no impact/no penalty
Title: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: Ballistic Whistle on January 27, 2009, 06:38:24 pm
Skating out of bounds and Cutting Track are two seperate penalties.

If a skater skates out of bounds in an attempt to avoid a block (for the sake of argument) she receives a skating out of bounds penalty. If she then proceeds to re-enter the track ahead of people who were ahead of her at the time she left the track, she then receives a cutting track penalty.

If the person she has re-entered ahead of is down, then there is no cutting track penalty, however the skating out of bounds penalty still applies.

That's my understanding at least.
Title: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: Darkjester on January 27, 2009, 06:44:58 pm
I haven't found it in the rules, though I do see the 'cutting' around an downed or oob player. If the skater made a good faith effort to avoid hitting a player who was downed and skated oob I would not call them on it, as the cutting act of stepping back in says they are not bettering their position. ( I know I'm merging the two, but it makes sense to me to do so in that instance.)

As for the downed skater I'm at a loss, there could possibly be a 'tripping' penalty even if the player who skated oob did not trip, but only if it was clearly an intent for the downed skater to attempt to trip the oob skater.



Title: Re: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: Johnny Zebra on January 27, 2009, 07:34:24 pm
Okay, let's step back take a look at what we know here:

* You are not supposed to touch OOB
* There are specified  circumstances when you can touch OOB and not be penalized (force out, missed block)
* There are specified circumstances when you must be penalized for going OOB (avoid block, speed, shave distance)

* It is questionable whether impact is a consideration in every category of rules anymore (it arguably was in 2.1, but 3.0 it arguably is not).

For the most part, if a skater steps out, there's a reason to give a penalty. If she tries to jump for position and misses, goes wide on speed, etc. etc. etc.

But there are OOB moments not covered by these (Ex: skating out and around a downed player). These need to be taken case by case, using discretion. Should the rules encourage skaters to stay in bounds at all costs, regardless of the situation? I don't believe so.  What if going OOB was a matter of safety to avoid a sprawled skater on the track? I'd rather see a skater go out of bounds rather than try to thread the needle and risk kicking a downed skater in the face, so wouldn't issue a penalty if that was the obviously safer choice.

~j.z.



Title: Re: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: Major Wood on January 27, 2009, 08:05:50 pm
But there are OOB moments not covered by these (Ex: skating out and around a downed player). These need to be taken case by case, using discretion. Should the rules encourage skaters to stay in bounds at all costs, regardless of the situation? I don't believe so.  What if going OOB a matter of safety to avoid a sprawled skater on the track? I'd rather see a skater go out of bounds rather than try to thread the needle and risk kicking a downed skater in the face, so wouldn't issue a penalty if that was the obvious safe choice.

At our scrimmage last night there was a situation like this. Jammer coming out of a turn at high speed, opposing blocker falls directly in front of her at the edge of the track. The jammer made the decision to strafe right and avoid the downed blocker by going out of bounds.

Did I consider this to be something worth penalizing? Not at all. She didn't cut the track, since the blocker was still down when the jammer stepped back in. She didn't gain speed or shorten her distance around the track. If anything, it hurt her since that was not a legal pass. If she wanted that point, she would have to drop back and re-pass.
Title: Re: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: mick hawkins on January 27, 2009, 10:10:43 pm
Actually, as far as I know, you can ONLY skate out of bounds to avoid a downed skater or get blocked out of bounds or go to the penalty box (hopefully didn't miss anything) so everything else is going to earn you a sob penalty.

As far as jumping from in bounds and landing oob goes...seems to me like it should be treated like sob and as long as you didn't do it to avoid a downed skater, get blocked out during, or do it to get a jump on your trip to the box you should get a penalty for it...but until just now I'd never really given it much thought so...? I'm interested to read more about this.

nicely said
my thoughts exactly
Title: Re: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: mick hawkins on January 28, 2009, 02:05:05 am
This is a good point but it is my opinion that there are no situations for skating out of bounds not covered by the examples which are illegal.
yeah - i hear you
but there might be some other situation... one that hasnt been thought of yet

plus, there's the example that started this whole discussion...

skater jumps from inbounds, passes an opponent while airborne and lands out of bounds
while it's not a clear cutting the track, surely it's at least a minor for SOOB?


what if a skater left the track, Skates OOB to her team's bench, has a quick chat with her captain then re-enter the track?
would that be considered legal? surely it goes against 6.2.9?
Title: Re: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: Major Wood on January 28, 2009, 02:31:38 am
what if a skater left the track, Skates OOB to her team's bench, has a quick chat with her captain then re-enter the track?
would that be considered legal? surely it goes against 6.2.9?

I would possibly consider her to be removing herself from play at that point. The only time a skater may re-enter after having removed herself from play is if the reason for removing herself from play was to fix an equipment malfunction.
I'd have to see it to call it though.
Title: Re: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: Johnny Zebra on January 28, 2009, 02:32:00 am
Precisely, Chug.

The rules tell us no part of the skate can touch outside blah blah blah.

This means OOB skating is illegal, and a penalty, UNLESS you have a good reason for it not to be a penalty: specifically outlined "no impact," or an uncovered circumstance of skating OOB that should be allowed because of the guidance other rules (discretion for safety, fairness, acts of God, whatever).  

With the rules we have,  (sk8 + OOB) = Penalty

Now is a foot going out for a moment because a skater stumbles, or simply slips on her own a penalty? I don't know. It's also not covered, and also does not help her speed, position or pace, and is pretty insignificant. I tend not to call such things. 

~j.z.




                                      

                                                      


Title: Re: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: mick hawkins on January 28, 2009, 02:51:12 am
Now is a foot going out for a moment because a skater stumbles, or simply slips on her own a penalty? I don't know. It's also not covered, and also is pretty insignificant. I tend not to call such things.

ah... good to know
i dont really call such things either, and have suggested our newer refs not bother with them too
i agree, it's pretty insignificant
Title: Re: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: JoeXCore on January 28, 2009, 06:41:07 am
Precisely, Chug.

The rules tell us no part of the skate can touch outside blah blah blah.

This means OOB skating is illegal, and a penalty, UNLESS you have a good reason for it not to be a penalty: specifically outlined "no impact," or an uncovered circumstance of skating OOB that should be allowed because of the guidance other rules (discretion for safety, fairness, acts of God, whatever).  

With the rules we have,  (sk8 + OOB) = Penalty

Now is a foot going out for a moment because a skater stumbles, or simply slips on her own a penalty? I don't know. It's also not covered, and also does not help her speed, position or pace, and is pretty insignificant. I tend not to call such things. 

~j.z.




So Zebra... are you saying that skating around a downed player does require a SOB penalty?
Title: Re: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: Crash Test Ref on January 28, 2009, 07:53:48 am
Quote
How do you penalise someone who blocks without stepping or skating?

If she fell down and then stood up without "skating in the proper direction", she's still considered  "out of play" (see definitions), so that's an easy call.  But what if she didn't fall?

If she's stopped because she didn't start skating, or because she simply decided to stop and make a block with otherwise legal target zones, that's a good question.  It must be penalized, as it is unsafe and clearly forbidden by 5.1.3,

But since the exact type of penalty "is not clearly spelled out in these rules", I think we should use 8.3.1 (Ref Discretion), to put it under a category.

I would therefore signal it as "skating clockwise to block", since that's the closest description.

Other ideas?
Title: Re: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: Crash Test Ref on January 28, 2009, 08:08:44 am
what if a skater left the track, Skates OOB to her team's bench, has a quick chat with her captain then re-enter the track?
would that be considered legal? surely it goes against 6.2.9?
a skater can remove herself from play for certain reasons, and unless we clearly know otherwise, we have to assume a legal intent.  Therefore a skater who removes herself to the bench, has a quick chat with her captain, then reenters is "out of play" while she's away, but unless she tells me "I had no injury or equipment malfunction" we have to assume legal intent (8.3.3).  In any case, there's no impact in most cases, unless she was the only jammer on the track, or the final blocker on the track for her team.
Title: Re: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: Johnny Zebra on January 29, 2009, 03:42:43 pm
Stuff on skating OOB to avoid a downed player split to:

http://zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=85.0

~j.z.
Title: Re: Skating OOB (was: Jumping and cutting track)
Post by: Miranda Wrights on February 24, 2009, 06:39:31 pm
It appears that ref discretion is a useful the catch-all resource when weighing the different factors in OOB calls. 

Focusing in on where a skater goes out of bounds without bettering her position, avoiding a block or maintaining or increase speed, here are some of the factors that I would consider:

1. To what degree did the skater maintain their speed when they went OBB?  For example: they went OOB because they were trying to maintain speed around the turn but had insufficient control and went wide.  Being in control is a natural extension of skating safely.  Safety on the track is a consistent concern that the rules seek to ensure and protect.  Consequently=OBB because didn't drop speed and skated without control=risk to safety=call minor OOB as part of my ref discretion.  Skating outside the range of control for your skills/ability poses a risk to a skaters personal safety and has impact.

However, if a skater dropped speed or was trying to drop speed (toe stops, knee) as they were going OOB or were OBB the there would be no penalty because they were clearly to trying to NOT maintain their speed.  So, a player who went OBB could consistently avoid a minor IF they dragged a toe stop for a second or two. 

This interpretation also reads that there is no penalty if a skater goes out of bounds on a stumble or strafe to avoid downed player.  They would reduce speed directly (or indirectly by not being able to follow their original path because they were avoiding a downed skater) and therefore NOT violate  6.2.9.4.