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Non-Skating Officials => Working with Referees => Topic started by: JoeXCore on February 16, 2010, 03:43:39 pm

Title: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: JoeXCore on February 16, 2010, 03:43:39 pm
What NSO positions can receive evaluations toward certification?

Is there a list of the WFTDA site that I am over looking?
Title: Re: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: Professor Murder on February 16, 2010, 04:11:57 pm
Penalty Tracker
Penalty Box Official/Timer
Whiteboard (both inside and out)
Penalty Wrangler/Runner/Chaser
Jam Timer
Score Keeper
Scoreboard Operator
Title: Re: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: Noah Tall on February 17, 2010, 02:32:28 am
What about head of stats?  How would we classify him for our cert process?
Title: Re: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: FNZebra on February 17, 2010, 02:37:28 am
What about head of stats?  How would we classify him for our cert process?

A head of the curve?
Title: Re: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: Professor Murder on February 17, 2010, 05:58:03 am
What about head of stats?  How would we classify him for our cert process?

That's stats.  Not eligible.  Anyone not listed (other than referees) is not eligible.
Title: Re: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: Noah Tall on February 17, 2010, 11:11:23 pm
What about head of stats?  How would we classify him for our cert process?

That's stats.  Not eligible.  Anyone not listed (other than referees) is not eligible.

So even though he's in charge of all of the NSOs for the bout and making sure they are well trained in how to do their jobs, he is not eligible for certification?  How do you get people to run your NSO crew then?
Title: Re: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: Major Wood on February 17, 2010, 11:54:50 pm
He is eligible for certification if he works positions in a bout that are eligible for evaluations.

You're talking about an administrative position that has nothing to do with the actual game. If you have a head ref who doesn't actually work a bout, but arranges for all the refs who will, that head ref isn't in a position to get any evals. Same thing with a head NSO or head statistician.
Title: Re: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: Darkjester on February 18, 2010, 01:18:24 am
What about head of stats?  How would we classify him for our cert process?

That's stats.  Not eligible.  Anyone not listed (other than referees) is not eligible.

So even though he's in charge of all of the NSOs for the bout and making sure they are well trained in how to do their jobs, he is not eligible for certification?  How do you get people to run your NSO crew then?

AFAIK, in many leagues that's the HR responsibility.

Title: Re: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: DayGlo Divine on February 18, 2010, 01:59:47 pm
What about head of stats?  How would we classify him for our cert process?

That's stats.  Not eligible.  Anyone not listed (other than referees) is not eligible.

So even though he's in charge of all of the NSOs for the bout and making sure they are well trained in how to do their jobs, he is not eligible for certification?  How do you get people to run your NSO crew then?

AFAIK, in many leagues that's the HR responsibility.

I'd go so far as to say "all but a small handful of leagues." Only a few leagues have a large and stable enough roster of NSOs to justify having a separate leader. In those that don't, the responsibility falls to the head ref, not the head statistician. This is because NSOs work directly with refs, supporting and complementing them. Statisticians rarely interact with refs at all, and when they do, it's usually only because an NSO dropped the ball in record-keeping.
Title: Re: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: Noah Tall on February 19, 2010, 02:04:14 am
Ok, so what is the difference between stats and NSO?  In my mind they are the same thing.  Our head of stats compiles the data at the end of the bout, and fills out the stuff for the IBRF.  He also trains the NSOs, helps wrangle penalties, consults with the scorekeepers, scoreboard operator and penalty box to make sure things are running smoothly.  He's also the main point of contact between the NSOs and refs.
Title: Re: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: Major Wood on February 19, 2010, 02:43:15 am
Ok, so what is the difference between stats and NSO?  In my mind they are the same thing.  Our head of stats compiles the data at the end of the bout, and fills out the stuff for the IBRF.  He also trains the NSOs, helps wrangle penalties, consults with the scorekeepers, scoreboard operator and penalty box to make sure things are running smoothly.  He's also the main point of contact between the NSOs and refs.

He is kind of like what we had last season in Master Bates. I referred to him as our head NSO , though. But he would actually perform NSO roles during bouts.
This season, we have a separate head NSO and head statistician.

The big difference between NSOs and stats... Stats people perform roles that don't provide necessary information to referees or other NSOs during the bout. Sometimes I confer with stats people to check records, but that is a rare instance. Stats people track information that is nice information to have, but not necessary (except for sanctioned bouts). This includes lineups, actions and errors, etc.
Title: Re: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: Cliquework on February 19, 2010, 02:08:06 pm
Interesting.

While perhaps not "vital" info, tracking the lineups actually makes the Stats Workbook calculate correctly on the game summary (at least what I remember in the previous version, haven't completed the new one until this weekend). I thought Lineups were "necessary" to track anymore. The Action, Error, and Jam tracking being the "Extra Credit".
Title: Re: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: SeerSin on February 19, 2010, 04:49:07 pm
Line-ups are required for sanctioned bouts, you're correct.
Title: Re: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: Great Barrier Ref on February 19, 2010, 04:57:06 pm
"Stats" positions don't affect the bout (incredibly rare conferrals notwithstanding) and even if they are required by the IBRF for sanctioning, they could in essence be done afterwards by watching sufficiently good video footage.

NSO positions are actively involved in the bout, even if they are just relaying information from point A to point B.
Title: Re: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: Hell En Fuego on February 24, 2010, 07:04:21 pm
Definitely. Stats are the summary of what the NSOs record, and therefore the people who compile them do not actively participate in bouts as an evaluatable position.

A lot of leagues do not have head NSOs (although it helps a great deal if you can get a really good one IMHO). It is not a required position for a sanctioned bout (like all of the certifiable positions are), so there is no need for certification. That's the way I see it.

We have A head NSO (Stat Brat) who actively participates in every bout as the penalty tracker. She makes the NSO roster for the bouts as well, but she does not calculate stats. We have other league members who do that.
Title: Re: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: Poobah on June 04, 2010, 09:02:26 pm
Something to keep in mind: What the rules suggest are all that's needed is not necessarily ALL that is actually needed.

The rules indicate what's needed to keep the bout functioning, not what's needed to actually sanction a game.

For example: Bouts in the three 20s format were still allowed by the rules in the WFTDA 3.0 (May 2008) and 3.1 (August 2008) rule sets. They remained legal per the rules until 4.0 (April 2009). You could not sanction them as of a bylaws change that was made around Spring 2008. What this led to was that all WFTDA leagues (hopefully) stopped setting up bouts that had the three period format, while many non-WFTDA leagues that were using WFTDA's latest rule sets kept on playing the older format.

Funny side story. MANY MANY leagues did not ever notice that anything other than three 20s was even allowed in the rules. When the two 30s format was adopted for 2007 Nationals I remember people posting that the rules didn't allow for that (when it had been legal since WFTDA 2.1), only to get corrected by other people that it was indeed legal. The lesson is that a lot of people (even me) sometimes base their assumptions of what the rules are based upon what they are used to seeing.

Here's another example. The rules (up until the latest May 2010 edition) allowed for a single scorekeeper. In theory, a single person sitting outside the center of the track could probably have watched both referees' hand signals and recorded (on a non-standard sheet*) the points scored by each jammer. That's was good enough to make a bout functional, but probably not good enough in reality.

What was actually happening that made this not really useful as a standard operating procedure? WFTDA's standardized stats sheets from 2006-2008 actually had scorekeepers not just recording jammers, lead jammer status, points scored per jam and the totals. They also recorded the lineups for their entire team.

The standardized stats sheets that were put together in 2008 and ratified by WFTDA in 2009 had scorekeepers no longer tracking lineups (easing their workload a bit), but now they were recording jam numbers (or star passes), jammer numbers, lost leads, lead jammer, called off jams, jams called for injuries, no-pass situations, points scored per pass, ghost points (by type, including HOW the fifth point in a pass was scored), points scored per pass, total points scored per jam and total score for the team.

The rules do not seem to get changed based upon the needs or wants of the NSO/stats community. Until something we do (or don't do) impacts the outcome of high-visibility bouts, don't expect the rules to reflect what's needed or what is currently the actual standards of the NSO/stats community. People in WFTDA leagues might want to check with their rep about why rule 9.1.5.1 was approved. It probably wasn't because "People who do stats started questioning the sanity of allowing of single scorekeepers back in 2007 or earlier."

Anyways, I'm happy for that rule and the one banning non-skating outside pack refs as removing a couple of "vestigial tail" rules.
Title: Re: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: WheelSmith on June 28, 2010, 05:40:39 pm
Ok, so what is the difference between stats and NSO?  In my mind they are the same thing.  Our head of stats compiles the data at the end of the bout, and fills out the stuff for the IBRF.  He also trains the NSOs, helps wrangle penalties, consults with the scorekeepers, scoreboard operator and penalty box to make sure things are running smoothly.  He's also the main point of contact between the NSOs and refs.

Penalty Wrangling is an NSO thing that can be evaluated right? So your head of stats can get evaluated for the penalty wrangling?

Or maybe I read that wrong?
Title: Re: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: Jessticular Fortitude on June 29, 2010, 06:38:10 pm
Ok, so what is the difference between stats and NSO?  In my mind they are the same thing.  Our head of stats compiles the data at the end of the bout, and fills out the stuff for the IBRF.  He also trains the NSOs, helps wrangle penalties, consults with the scorekeepers, scoreboard operator and penalty box to make sure things are running smoothly.  He's also the main point of contact between the NSOs and refs.

Penalty Wrangling is an NSO thing that can be evaluated right? So your head of stats can get evaluated for the penalty wrangling?

Or maybe I read that wrong?

From this same thread:
Penalty Tracker
Penalty Box Official/Timer
Whiteboard (both inside and out)
Penalty Wrangler/Runner/Chaser
Jam Timer
Score Keeper
Scoreboard Operator
Title: Re: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: Major Wood on June 29, 2010, 07:00:44 pm
Right. It is the position they are working during that bout. It does not matter who is in that position. It could be your head of stats, your head NSO, head ref, a skater or someone you pulled in off the street. It's purely based on what they are doing in that specific bout.
Title: Re: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: JoeXCore on September 10, 2010, 12:06:59 pm
WFTDA recently seems to have decided that lineup trackers are NSOs...


Any change on the original list given? Have lineup trackers been added to the list? Is there still nowhere this list can be found on the WFTDA web site?
Title: Re: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: Jess of the D'ErbyKills on December 04, 2010, 08:14:04 pm
I have two questions that I can't figure out from the WFTDA site.

1) Is it better to get evaluations for a range of NSO positions (that are eligible for evaluation), or is it okay to have 3 for one positon?

2) If you were NSO-ing a tournament, could you get an evaluation for each game, or would it count as one for the tournament? Would it depend on how many Head Refs you worked with?

Cheers
Jess of the D'Erbykills
Title: Re: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: Major Wood on December 04, 2010, 08:29:26 pm
I have two questions that I can't figure out from the WFTDA site.

1) Is it better to get evaluations for a range of NSO positions (that are eligible for evaluation), or is it okay to have 3 for one positon?

2) If you were NSO-ing a tournament, could you get an evaluation for each game, or would it count as one for the tournament? Would it depend on how many Head Refs you worked with?

Cheers
Jess of the D'Erbykills

1) I can't speak to which is "better", but it is certainly ok to have multiple evals for the same position. Most people specialize in one position. There are a few level 1 certified officials whom I have only ever seen work one specific position. This, of course, doesn't mean they can't and don't work other positions, just that they specialize.

2)If it were a big 5 tournament, you typically get one for the tournament. Otherwise, you are best off asking the tournament head referee, who should be setting a procedure for asking for evaluations.
Title: Re: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: Jess of the D'ErbyKills on December 04, 2010, 10:04:40 pm
Excellent, thank you.
Title: Re: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: JoeXCore on February 12, 2011, 04:34:50 am
Quote
The currently recognized Non Skating Official positions which are evaluable are:

Penalty Tracker
Penalty Wrangler
Inside White Board Operator
Jam Timer
Outside White Board Operator
Penalty Box Timer
Penalty Box Manager
Scoreboard Operator
Scorekeeper
Line Up Tracker
Title: Re: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: Brian Robinson on May 10, 2012, 12:13:41 am
As stated on the NSO Eval Form, both team captains (or designated "league representatives") may evaluate an NSO in one of these positions.
 
Just to confirm, because I've never been asked to give an NSO evaluation before, may the head referee of a bout give an NSO evaluation in these positions as well?*

(Meaning up to 3 evaluation cards per WFTDA Regulation/Sanctioned bout)
Title: Re: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: Two Bit Score on May 10, 2012, 03:31:41 am
Just to confirm, because I've never been asked to give an NSO evaluation before, may the head referee of a bout give an NSO evaluation in these positions as well?*

(Meaning up to 3 evaluation cards per WFTDA Regulation/Sanctioned bout)
Yes, this is how I understand it (and how I have received NSO evals in the past).  Also, I have seen some leagues have the head NSO issue an eval for NSOs seeking evals.  I'm not sure if that falls under a head ref eval, or if the home team is giving the head NSO authority to issue the eval.   My home league doesn't, and I've never thought to ask a league that does it that way.
Title: Re: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: Yvel Saint Laurent on May 10, 2012, 03:30:36 pm
I've received evaluations as an NSO from my NSO crew head, on behalf of the Head Ref before, in addition to those from the competing teams.
Title: Re: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: SeerSin on May 10, 2012, 03:39:50 pm
Yes, the head referee and the head NSO may send in NSO evaluations.
Title: Re: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: reflmao on May 10, 2012, 03:57:39 pm
Yes, the head referee and the head NSO may send in NSO evaluations.
 

I thought that was an 'or' not an 'and'.
Title: Re: What NSO positions can receive evaluations toward certification?
Post by: FNZebra on May 10, 2012, 05:04:44 pm
Yes, the head referee and the head NSO may send in NSO evaluations.
 
I thought that was an 'or' not an 'and'.

In practice, I have seen it as usually being an 'or'. The head NSO is typically in a better "position" to see evidence of NSO (non-)performance, particularly if they are the one filling in the stats book from the in-bout paperwork.

Your mileage may vary, depending on the maturity of the league and the individuals involved.
Title: Re: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: reflmao on May 10, 2012, 05:24:08 pm
Let me be more direct. 

I understand that ref cert accepts cert reviews from the Head NSO in place of a review from the Head Ref, not in addition to. 
Title: Re: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: SeerSin on May 10, 2012, 05:57:38 pm
Both are currently acccepted. The Certification Panel isn't going to reject an evaluation from the Head NSO because the head ref already sent one in.
Title: Re: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: reflmao on May 10, 2012, 06:22:28 pm
Cool, good to know.  Thanks.
Title: Re: What NSO positions can recieve evalulations toward certification?
Post by: Brian Robinson on May 10, 2012, 09:16:11 pm
Both are currently acccepted. The Certification Panel isn't going to reject an evaluation from the Head NSO because the head ref already sent one in.

This is VERY good to know.