Zebra Huddle™

WFTDA => General Ref Discussion => Topic started by: All-Nate-Long on February 25, 2010, 07:23:44 am

Title: Falling small..
Post by: All-Nate-Long on February 25, 2010, 07:23:44 am
One thing that I notice that a lot of refs are having trouble with, myself included is the identification of the  low block aka tripping....

[rule]   6.10.7   Flailing and sprawling skaters that trip an opponent, regardless of intent.[/rule]

When a skater is falling down if she falls small and tries to move out of the way I tend to not give her a penalty...

What i notice is a lot of refs call any form of sprawling/flailing legs( Falling skaters legs accidentally trip opposing skater ) major

I think a lot of refs use 6.10.7 out of context...

My question pertains to the best way to identify the low block trip. And what are some of the ways and examples of tripping and trapping the skate....

Many Thanks
All Nate Long


Title: Re: Falling small..
Post by: Pat-E-Rat on February 25, 2010, 01:21:47 pm
In my experience most skaters 'try' to fall small.  That doesn't mean they do.  Roller derby is fast paced sport that doesn't move in a straight line.  I see most trip/low blocks on the turns, I've been disagreed with by skaters (duh) and coaches, but never been told by my HR or others that a low block/trip call was inaccurate.  If I don't see a skater mimicing a scared turtle, protecting herself to the best of her ability to create the smallest chance of being an interference to others, she will most likely be called on the penalty.  At scrimmage-a-thon I saw, and called, a few of these and I understand it is not easy to tuck your arms and knees under yourself when you're sliding out of a turn at round-a-bout 12mph+, but when those legs slide out and bring someone down, people are at risk and a call must be made.
Title: Re: Falling small..
Post by: All-Nate-Long on February 25, 2010, 11:14:34 pm
Here are some examples of low blocking..

Blocker A exterior leg or knee, dropping  into a illegal blocking zone under the mid thigh and pushing the opposing blocker to the ground with that leg...

Un- experienced skater leg flailing and sprawling outward causing opposing skater to fall...

A experienced skaters back leg over extending in a crossover that causes opposing skater to fall

A experienced skaters toe stop pressing down on back of opposing skaters wheelz and causes her to fall

A overly extended snow plow at the right time that causes opposing skater to fall

just a few examples of tripping regardless of the intent, the only way a ref could actually say she meant to do the trip as a expulsion would be the obvious leg comes out... and trips... or the skater grabs the skate or leg with her hand...

All nate Long..

Title: Re: Falling small..
Post by: Darkjester on February 26, 2010, 01:49:58 am
A overly extended snow plow at the right time that causes opposing skater to fall



This one here "Might not" be a tripping depending on 'who initiated' the contact. A skater 'snow plowing' who has established her position in front of the other blocker is allowed to positionally block the skaters behind her. If the skater behind her skates into the snow plowing skaters leg below Mid-Thigh and trips over her, the penalty would be on her for blocking to an illegal zone.

Now if the snow plowing skater 'kicks' out her leg into the oncoming opposing skater, then she is responsible for the illegal contact.

Title: Re: Falling small..
Post by: Theshoveler on February 26, 2010, 02:04:40 am
I'll disagree on the snow plowing skaters extended leg being a penalty on the tripee.  The extended leg, by being there is positionally blocking(why can't the skater behind skate through, the extended leg) with an illegal blocking zone(lower leg).  So, the penalty is on the skater who has her leg out, not the skater who tripped over it. 

Being in front does not make a skater elligible to block with illegal zones.

The Shoveler
Title: Re: Falling small..
Post by: Stegoscorus on February 26, 2010, 04:05:15 am

Being in front does not make a skater elligible to block with illegal zones.

The Shoveler

Of course it doesn't.  BUT: if a skater has established her stance in a plow style, I wouldn't assess her a Low Block.  If she stuck her leg out right in front of someone, it's different than if she had an established stance that a skater came up behind. 
Title: Re: Falling small..
Post by: mick hawkins on February 26, 2010, 05:10:17 am

Being in front does not make a skater elligible to block with illegal zones.

The Shoveler

Of course it doesn't.  BUT: if a skater has established her stance in a plow style, I wouldn't assess her a Low Block.  If she stuck her leg out right in front of someone, it's different than if she had an established stance that a skater came up behind.  

thats how i understand it too... it's who initiates contact

a skater who sticks a leg out wide into the path of another skater (who cant possibly avoid the contact) is initiating contact
a skater who skates, into the leg of a skater (who's down low and wide) is initiating contact

[rule]5.1.2 The skater who makes contact with a target zone of an opponent is considered the
initiator of the block. The initiator of the block is always responsible for the legality of her
contact.[/rule]
Title: Re: Falling small..
Post by: Theshoveler on February 26, 2010, 05:26:32 am
If all this is true:



Positional Blocking A.K.A. Body Blocking, Frontal Blocking, Passive Blocking Passive blocking is blocking without contact, positioning yourself in front of an opposing skater to impede her movement on the track. It may also be done unintentionally, if the blocking skater is not aware of the Jammer?s position behind her.

5.2.4 Illegal Blocking Zones?apply to the body parts of the skater performing a block.

5.2.4.4 Below the mid thigh


Explain to me how a leg stuck out in front of another skater, regardless of how it got there, is a legal block or position.

If the only part of the front skater impeding the rear skater is below the mid thigh it is an illegal positional block.  If there is contact to the leg that is blocking it is the skater who is blocking solely with an illegal zone that is subject to a penalty.


The Shoveler



Title: Re: Falling small..
Post by: mick hawkins on February 26, 2010, 06:02:59 am

Explain to me how a leg stuck out in front of another skater, regardless of how it got there, is a legal block or position.

If the only part of the front skater impeding the rear skater is below the mid thigh it is an illegal positional block.  If there is contact to the leg that is blocking it is the skater who is blocking solely with an illegal zone that is subject to a penalty.


maybe i dont understand... but skating out wide isnt necessarily impeding a skater behind. is it?
that is, it's not necessarily considered a "block" as such

how is skating into another's legs from behind not considered initiating a block?

[rule]5.1.1 Blocking is any movement on the track designed to knock the opponent down or out of
bounds or to impede the opponent’s speed or movement through the pack.[/rule]

Title: Re: Falling small..
Post by: All-Nate-Long on February 26, 2010, 08:10:16 am
Im going to say that you are all correct in number of  different scenarios....

I have been taught that the snow plow is used to

A. slow down the opposing skater and positionally block her
b. Slow down or stop the skater doing the plow


Once a snow plow is engaged it is a legal positional block..If opposing skater does any form of back blocking ...pow penalty...

Once a skater attempts to engage the snow plow and positions herself into a strategic location that...

Imagine blue blocker is skating in front of green jammer on the outside corner..Blue blocker quickly engages a snow plow and green jammer goes flying over her solid snow plow... this happens somewhat often in the pac...

I could say that the jammer should be able to stop or go around the blocker, in some cases that is true, but more often the jammer would go flying over that solid mass blocker leg....

Hence the snow plow could be a trip...

And yes the person who is doing a solid snow plow could be the one getting fouled....back block...


All nate Long   

 
Title: Re: Falling small..
Post by: Noah Tall on February 27, 2010, 12:03:13 am
Quote
A experienced skaters back leg over extending in a crossover that causes opposing skater to fall

Is this not considered normal skating motion?
Title: Re: Falling small..
Post by: Darkjester on February 27, 2010, 01:47:59 am
As long as its 'skate to skate' contact yes, then its normal skating motion. If however the extension on the cross-over ends up with a kick to the shin/trip, then its low blocking.

Title: Re: Falling small..
Post by: mick hawkins on February 27, 2010, 11:45:18 pm
....and not if she's engaging the opponent
Title: Re: Falling small..
Post by: Pat-E-Rat on March 03, 2010, 04:02:58 pm
[rule]5.1.1 Blocking is any movement on the track designed to knock the opponent down or out of
bounds or to impede the opponent’s speed or movement through the pack.[/rule]

I'm in the boat with The Shoveler on this one.  I've seen and heard the call booty block enough to know the pivot sticking her butt out and her leg(s) as well to cover up to half the track.  It's difficult not to note the intent here is clearly to slow, if not stop, the on coming blockers and certainly the opposing jammer making a scoring pass.  I unerstand the purpose of a plow-stop, but the intent of said plow-stop being a block makes it illegal if the block falls below mid-thigh, no?
Title: Re: Falling small..
Post by: All-Nate-Long on March 03, 2010, 06:51:21 pm
Dude that is such a hard call to make....

In most cases I dont think the blocker would intend on a jammer running over her leg in a un- sporty manner...

But yes girls that tend to get to low(because thats what they are supposed to do)  can trigger us to call a foul.. low block or back blocking.....

But the girl doing the snow plow would obviously be the initiator of the block , especially if the blocker is super low to the ground...

It works both ways ...

If your jammer ran into the lower thigh of a pre established blocker, propelling her forward or side to side, outa bounds or to fall and lose her pre -established spot...then the penalty would be on the jammer.....

If the snow plower , body blocker decided to drop her stance low enough to take out the jammer.. penalty... She dropped low because she knew that would be a more effective way to stop her.... if she stays in a regular blocking zone impact area, the chances of her getting passed are greater....

All Nate Long
Title: Re: Falling small..
Post by: Darkjester on March 04, 2010, 12:41:55 am
Did the 'wide skating' snow ploy Hit the other skater with her mid-thigh or below leg?

Or did the other skater skate into the Wide Skating Blocker?

If its the first, then yes, a Penalty on the blocker.

If its the second, then the penalty belongs to the other skater.