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Recent Posts

Re: False Start = No pack? by llama of death
October 20, 2017, 10:15:28 pm

Re: False Start = No pack? by AdamSmasher
October 20, 2017, 12:06:46 pm

Re: New Rules Clarifications.. by Assault Disney
October 20, 2017, 07:04:37 am

Re: False Start = No pack? by Bluebeard
October 19, 2017, 10:55:25 pm

Re: New dress code for NSOs by IsaacRi
October 19, 2017, 02:50:15 pm

Re: False Start = No pack? by llama of death
October 18, 2017, 11:07:11 pm

Re: Blocking a Star Pass by llama of death
October 18, 2017, 11:01:19 pm

Re: Blocking a Star Pass by AdamSmasher
October 18, 2017, 05:52:44 pm

Re: New Rules Clarifications.. by AdamSmasher
October 18, 2017, 05:48:16 pm

Re: New Rules Clarifications.. by Vanilla VICE
October 18, 2017, 03:51:39 pm

Recent Posts

Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 10
1
Rules Discussion / Re: False Start = No pack?
« Last post by llama of death on October 20, 2017, 10:15:28 pm »
The way to dodge the issue entirely, of course, is for skaters to *notice* when we warn them about false starts. :)

Assuming they aren't doing so intentionally as in BlueBeards example?
2
Rules Discussion / Re: False Start = No pack?
« Last post by AdamSmasher on October 20, 2017, 12:06:46 pm »
I thought I had a clear answer to this, but the more I think about it, the more I realize I don't.  The case of the lone remaining pivot at the front in a false starting position in theory can be resolved by legal means - yield, then pack. 

However, that isn't necessarily "immediate."  Very likely not immediate at the front, in fact. So you could follow your suggestion, not start the jam, and issue a delay of game.  You could also let the jam proceed and just keep the no pack up until the blocker has yielded - they're only having impact on their own team, after all.

In my personal opinion, there is no strong consensus on this issue on the moment that I am aware of.

The way to dodge the issue entirely, of course, is for skaters to *notice* when we warn them about false starts. :)
3
Rules Discussion / Re: New Rules Clarifications..
« Last post by Assault Disney on October 20, 2017, 07:04:37 am »
Thanks guys, that is very helpful...

I usually listen in to ORs to give information if I have any and to learn the outcome as it usually requires NSO actions. I mainly asked as I get shutdown quite a lot from some HRs here, they don't see NSOs as much more than an administrator. Was curious what happens elsewhere... Thanks for the support.
 
4
Rules Discussion / Re: False Start = No pack?
« Last post by Bluebeard on October 19, 2017, 10:55:25 pm »
This came up in a game a couple weeks ago.  The only differences being that it was white and the pivot lined up intentionally straddling the pivot line.  The level 4 front IPR warned her about positioning before the jam started, then issued "False Start" warning when the jam started.  She had picked up her wheels, I as middle OPR could not see her toe stop.  Upon hearing the warning she took off for the penalty box causing that whole fun scene.  We had "no pack"  until she returned to the track which was at the same time that two of her teammates were released from the box and returned to the track.

My thoughts:  I feel like it would have been appropriate in my scenario to take an OTO and issue a delay of game to the white captain per 5.15.6 in the 2015 rules
WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
5.15.6 Failure to field any Blockers between the Pivot and Jammer Lines, preventing a pack
from forming between the Pivot and Jammer Lines at the first legal opportunity.
Penalty will be assessed to the Captain. If both teams fail to field any Blockers in this
way, one penalty will be issued to each Captain.
even though that is not in line with C2.4 in the casebook.
WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
Scenario C2.4
All White Blockers (including White Pivot) line up legally between Jams at the Pivot Line, but not touching the line. Red Pivot lines up behind them. Immediately before the Jam starts, Red Pivot reaches forward with their leg and places their skate on the Pivot Line.

Outcome: The White Non-Pivot Blockers should all be issued False Start warnings, and must yield their positions to all nearby Skaters; any who do not yield should receive a penalty.

Rationale: Red Pivot established their position in contact with the Pivot Line before the beginning of the Jam, so Non-Pivot Blockers must begin the Jam behind the hips of any Pivots in contact with the Pivot Line. All White Blockers began the Jam in front of Red Pivot, so all but the White Pivot are required to yield.
I guess it comes down to whether the "partially out of position" false start (one toe stop in front of pivot line)  is enough different from the "completely behind pivot line, but in front of pivot" false start to treat it differently and use the "no blockers between the pivot and jammer lines" guideline from the prior ruleset.  Although in C2.4 the white pivot did not false start so she was able to form a pack.
5
Gear / Re: New dress code for NSOs
« Last post by IsaacRi on October 19, 2017, 02:50:15 pm »
I didn't know that. Thanks for the clarification Adam.
6
Rules Discussion / Re: False Start = No pack?
« Last post by llama of death on October 18, 2017, 11:07:11 pm »
It's in Section 2.2 now.

WFTDA Rule/Clarification:
Any Skaters who are partially illegally positioned (but are still on the track; for example, a Jammer who is touching past the Jammer Line) are required to yield their position to all other Skaters in the immediate vicinity, and are not considered to have joined the Jam until they have done so.

If I had to guess, I'd say there is no pack until the yield resolves.

Thank you, that looks like the new phrasing then.

I seem to struggle to find rules more in this rules set, mostly I feel that is my problem for having tried so hard to outright memorize the old rule-set and its formatting, makes finding the new phrasings hard for me.

Again, thank you.
7
Rules Discussion / Re: Blocking a Star Pass
« Last post by llama of death on October 18, 2017, 11:01:19 pm »
Adam is correct. Though your not crazy, I have been told this point blank by a reasonably well known and respected ref. Just goes to show you we are all human and make mistakes and occasionally memorize something incorrectly.
8
Rules Discussion / Re: Blocking a Star Pass
« Last post by AdamSmasher on October 18, 2017, 05:52:44 pm »
Question came up last night at practice.  Can you block a star pass by hitting someone in the arm or hand with a legal blocking zone? Hands and arms are legal target zones.  A lot of skaters said they had had penalties called on them, but I don't see anything in the rules that would make me think that was illegal. It also does not appear to be in the casebook.

As long as the *blocking* zone is legal, then yes, this is OK.  You can, for example, push someone's arm holding a cover aside using your shoulder.

What your teammate may be thinking of  is this:
Pushing someone's forearm gently with your forearm that has no impact is illegal, but not penalized
Pushing someone's forearm gently with your forearm that prevents a star pass is illegal, and penalized.

The push can be *exactly the same*, but the difference is that preventing a star pass in and of itself constitutes sufficient impact to warrant a penalty.
9
Rules Discussion / Re: New Rules Clarifications..
« Last post by AdamSmasher on October 18, 2017, 05:48:16 pm »
2) Clockwise Block
While in a wall, a blocker moves to a position in front of the Jammer and begins to skate backwards pushing the Jammer back.
Would this not be a clockwise block?

Important to clarify here - by "backwards" you mean "clockwise", yes?  Not skating backwards in derby direction.

In general, here's the metric for clockwise as I explain it.  Clockwise or stopped blocking is an *immediate* penalty if it has an immediate impact - if the recipient goes down, out of bounds, loses relative position, or has a significant change in speed or trajectory.

Penalties can also be issued for *sustained* clockwise or stopped blocks even if there is no tangible impact other than a sustained impediment to motion.  Judging the length of time to hit "sustained" is an area we all constantly work on.

Quote
And in general, how much input can a Head NSO give for Official Reviews?
I ask as I am generally well versed in the rules and their identification on track, I am usually in the middle to see what is happening and the rules state the Head Ref would take the Officials information into account when making a decision (not just skaters). 

When I HNSO, I make a point of listening in on the official review as presented by the team.  If it seems information will be needed from another NSO, I'll go and collect it and then join the huddle.  If not, I just stay with the huddle.  Two reasons - 1. the referees might decide they need NSO information and 2. the result of the OR is something I'll need to know about, even if the result is just "not retained."
10
Rules Discussion / Re: New Rules Clarifications..
« Last post by Vanilla VICE on October 18, 2017, 03:51:39 pm »
Both of these calls officials are looking for 2 things:

1) Did they do the illegal thing? Sounds like they did.

2) Did they continue doing it for some small amount of time? This is the part you have to judge.

With these "impeding progress" penalties there is a time element that you have to judge as an official. Just doing it it alone is not penalty worthy. Doing it, and holding that trajectory, or holding that forearm for a beat is what officials try to look for. I hope this helps.

And in general, how much input can a Head NSO give for Official Reviews? NSOs can be included to give input for Official Reviews, most will likely wait to be asked to give input by the HR, but that is not a standard. If you feel like you have something meaningful to the review, let the HR know so they can weigh that information with that given by other officials.
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