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Author Topic: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice  (Read 63518 times)

Offline Brad Religion

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Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
« Reply #45 on: June 10, 2009, 05:42:35 pm »

Hey, bronco... Can you fix this link? I need to re-dl it, and it appears to be broken now. Thanks!
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Offline bronco

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Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2009, 08:10:30 pm »
I re-attached to this thread


Hey, bronco... Can you fix this link? I need to re-dl it, and it appears to be broken now. Thanks!
... Ref. Bronco

Offline Brad Religion

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Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
« Reply #47 on: June 15, 2009, 10:19:44 pm »
Awesome, thank you!
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Offline FNZebra

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Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
« Reply #48 on: June 15, 2009, 10:44:55 pm »
I re-attached to this thread


Bronco, requesting clarification about this one:

Quote
Any ref can call a major on any player and call the jam off at anytime, but only jam refs can call minors against jammers

I understand the majors, and calling it off at anytime for an injury or other safety issue, but would it be better practice to have the only the JRs and the HR be the ones to call off the jam when the lead jammer signals for it? So the HR is effectively the backup for the JRs for that purpose, if one should get taken down.

That would avoid the messy situation where the non-lead jammer tries to call off the jam, and their JR wisely doesn't allow it, but an eager OPR who wasn't paying as close attention to the LJ status sees the flapping arms and whistles it off. (and I still hate that rule, where the skater is penalized for the foolishness of the ref.)
You will bout as you practice.


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FN Zebra
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Offline Bishop

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Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2009, 02:06:29 pm »
I re-attached to this thread


Bronco, requesting clarification about this one:

Quote
Any ref can call a major on any player and call the jam off at anytime, but only jam refs can call minors against jammers

I understand the majors, and calling it off at anytime for an injury or other safety issue, but would it be better practice to have the only the JRs and the HR be the ones to call off the jam when the lead jammer signals for it? So the HR is effectively the backup for the JRs for that purpose, if one should get taken down.

That would avoid the messy situation where the non-lead jammer tries to call off the jam, and their JR wisely doesn't allow it, but an eager OPR who wasn't paying as close attention to the LJ status sees the flapping arms and whistles it off. (and I still hate that rule, where the skater is penalized for the foolishness of the ref.)
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 02:14:19 pm by Bishop »
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Offline noidd

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Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
« Reply #50 on: June 16, 2009, 02:17:44 pm »
Bishop,

In my mind It's a trade-off...

Speed of the jam being called off verses the jam being accidentally called.

If you're working with a ref-crew who you know and trust you can certainly could let anyone call it off but it is a risk.  Whether the risk is worth it is, I guess up to the head ref of the bout.
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Offline Bishop

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Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
« Reply #51 on: June 16, 2009, 02:28:46 pm »
Bishop,

In my mind It's a trade-off...

Speed of the jam being called off verses the jam being accidentally called.

If you're working with a ref-crew who you know and trust you can certainly could let anyone call it off but it is a risk.  Whether the risk is worth it is, I guess up to the head ref of the bout.

In my mind, most of the time it is worth the risk.  In fact, I think that oftentimes OPRs aren't given the credit they're due.  


Oh, and here's why:

I have never seen a pack referee mistakenly call off a jam.  This includes times when I know they were given the authority to call off jams. 

Conversely, I have been involved in bouts where jams were called off by a pack referee (not Head Ref.)  Two of those times were on me.  Once I went flying my Jammer as I went into the turn and she went to the outside of the track.  She had just reached the pack and was knocked down and OOB and immediately called the jam.  My trusty OPR Gunshow called off the jam on that occasion.

In one bout where I served as rear IPR, I had to call off the jam at least twice.  This was mainly due to the Jam Ref being out of position when the Jammer called it.  The Jam ref was out of position because he wasn't a highly skilled skater.   The winning team won by 16 points.  When starts getting that close, every point is precious. 
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 03:10:18 pm by Bishop »
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Offline Major Wood

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Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
« Reply #52 on: June 16, 2009, 03:49:48 pm »
I have never seen a pack referee mistakenly call off a jam.  This includes times when I know they were given the authority to call off jams. 

I have seen it... and it's a bad situation.

Also, if your jammer falls, there shouldn't be a few seconds where you aren't looking in her direction. For that matter, there shouldn't be one second where you aren't looking in her direction. Practice stopping suddenly while keeping your eyes focused on one object. Practice turning around to skate backwards without allowing your eyes to leave an object.
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Offline Jonathan Lee

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Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
« Reply #53 on: June 16, 2009, 05:26:05 pm »
I have never seen a pack referee mistakenly call off a jam.  This includes times when I know they were given the authority to call off jams. 

I have seen it... and it's a bad situation.

Ditto.

Sorry, but if you're a pack ref, you won't always know what the jam ref knows - if that jammer had just got a fourth minor, or a major, or got a major as she started to call it off, or is not lead jammer, or lost lead jammer status.

And I've been in the position of being a pack ref, and seeing the jammer calling it, and not hearing those four whistles. It's tempting, but if you don't know exactly what's going on, resist temptation.
Bay Area Derby Girls, head referee :: WFTDA Certified Referee, Level 3

Offline Bishop

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Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
« Reply #54 on: June 16, 2009, 09:50:44 pm »
I have never seen a pack referee mistakenly call off a jam.  This includes times when I know they were given the authority to call off jams.  

I have seen it... and it's a bad situation.

Ditto.

Sorry, but if you're a pack ref, you won't always know what the jam ref knows - if that jammer had just got a fourth minor, or a major, or got a major as she started to call it off, or is not lead jammer, or lost lead jammer status.

And I've been in the position of being a pack ref, and seeing the jammer calling it, and not hearing those four whistles. It's tempting, but if you don't know exactly what's going on, resist temptation.


Well, just because I hadn't seen it, didn't mean I didn't think it happened.  I have witnessed a Jammer Ref mistakenly call off a Jam because they thought their Jammer was calling it when she was just going for an assist or something.  It was messy and unpleasant (it wasn't me, thankfully)


I have got to hear the hows and whys of a pack ref mistakenly calling off a jam.  I mean, pesonally, I don't see it happening very often (I've never seen it, but you know what I mean).  Its seems pretty obvious to me who the Lead Jammer is because of the Jam Ref holding our their right arm.  

In my present reality, it is far more likely that a Jam Ref will miss calling off a jam than a pack ref mistakenly calling a Jam off.  For me, I think it's also far more likely that the former will have more game changing implications than the latter.  I mean, think about it, how likely is that a Jammer would benefit from intentionally calling off a Jam when not Lead Jammer?  She'll get one major penalty at the least.  And IMO, a Jammer who calls off a Jam because she mistakenly thinks she's Lead Jammer needs to accept the resonsibility for her own actions.  If it were "ok" intentionally try to call off a Jam when not Lead then there wouldn't be a minor penalty for unsuccessful effort.  

At any rate, I think it all goes back to balancing the variables that I previously mentioned; the numbers, arrangement, experience, and skating skill of the referees.  So, I'll consent that perhaps the variables you all have to deal with on a regular basis favor not empowering pack refs to call off jams.  Whatever the case, I think deciding who's allowed to call off Jams would be something best handled in a pre-bout meeting as opposed to adopting a one-size-fits-all "best practice".

 
« Last Edit: June 16, 2009, 09:57:53 pm by Bishop »
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Offline DayGlo Divine

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Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
« Reply #55 on: June 16, 2009, 10:16:59 pm »
I have never seen a pack referee mistakenly call off a jam.  This includes times when I know they were given the authority to call off jams. 

I have seen it... and it's a bad situation.

I have seen this too. Once had an OPR "do me a favor" by calling off a jam because my jammer was signaling a call-off from the ground. No one gave him the authority to do it, and in his mad rush to play "one-up the jammer ref," he missed the fact that I had just called a major on her.  DayGlo was not pleased. >:(
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Offline Major Wood

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Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
« Reply #56 on: June 16, 2009, 10:23:12 pm »
This is one place where I would be very concerned with as a visiting ref. I don't think this is a place where there should be any deviation. Know your role. A pack ref shouldn't be calling off jams for a jammer for a multitude of reasons.

You're saying it should be obvious who the lead jammer is based on the jammer ref's hand signals. You aren't taking into consideration the fact that the jammer may have committed a last second major that the jammer ref was about to call.

You are looking at a small subset of possibilities. The number of times a jammer tries to call it off when she is lead will be far greater than the number of times she tries to call it off when not lead. The number of times that a jammer will try to call off a jam immediately following a major penalty will be relatively small as compared to when she is still lead.
The smaller number in both cases is the number of chances a jammer ref has to make a mistake in calling off the jam. Any time you add a ref who is allowed to call off the jam as well, you are multiplying that chance of mistakes.

Also, you are worrying about game effect. Yes, it has an effect if a jammer ref takes an extra 5 seconds to call off a jam. In trying to counteract that, you have a possibility of messing with the balance created by jammer refs swapping teams at the half. Screwing up that balance can have a very large game effect as well.
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Offline Jonathan Lee

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Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
« Reply #57 on: June 16, 2009, 11:06:09 pm »
I have got to hear the hows and whys of a pack ref mistakenly calling off a jam.  I mean, pesonally, I don't see it happening very often (I've never seen it, but you know what I mean).  Its seems pretty obvious to me who the Lead Jammer is because of the Jam Ref holding our their right arm.  

The times I've seen it, it comes down to just what I mentioned earlier: The pack ref - inside or outside, I've seen both - not knowing what's going on.
Not seeing that a jammer had lost lead jammer status by going to the box. Not seeing that a jam ref was not pointing their right arm at the skater trying to call it off. And, as in DayGlo's experience, one that I also have seen, not knowing that the jam ref was about to call them off for major/fourth minor.

In my present reality, it is far more likely that a Jam Ref will miss calling off a jam than a pack ref mistakenly calling a Jam off.  For me, I think it's also far more likely that the former will have more game changing implications than the latter.

From my experience, and what I've seen:
The impact on the game of a jam ref missing calling off a jam = 1-3 extra seconds of gameplay, 0-2 points scored for the other team (estimates from memory)
The impact on the game of a pack ref mistakenly calling a jam off = cut the scoring pass of a lead jammer short, no way to tell how long the jam really would have gone; cut the initial pass of the other jammer short, no way to know if she would have gotten lead

The second seems like a much bigger impact.

A jam ref missing/being late in calling off the jam when it should be called could - in certain situations - result in the other team getting, at most, 5 points in the span of time during which the jammer is trying to call it and the ref actually calls it.

If a pack ref calls it when it should not be called, you've cut the jam short, and prevented any amount of jam time that would have happened from happening. Circumstances of jams vary, obviously, so the impact could be anything from preventing 1 seconds to even 1:50 of play, and anything from zero possible points to 20. Who knows, it would all depend on the teams and gameplay and people in the box and tons of other variables.
Bay Area Derby Girls, head referee :: WFTDA Certified Referee, Level 3

Offline Professor Murder

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Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
« Reply #58 on: June 17, 2009, 03:34:35 am »
As a head ref, I'm typically very polite and calm on the track in the middle of a crowd.

There are exceptions - i.e., when a pack referee calls off the jam before anyone else.

Echo to call - lawd a'mighty, echo the call.  Do not initiate it.

There are at a minimum, 4 distinct skating referee positions on a derby track that is fully staffed.

There is a corresponding division of labor and list of responsibilities for each of those positions.

In many cases, such as this, "going above and beyond" is not that, but, in fact, stepping on toes and fucking things up.

Referee crews are teams, and work best as teams.  If you cannot work as a team member, you need to learn how.

Jam refs call the jam off except for (1) injury and (2) time expiration of the jam.  Always.
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Offline mick hawkins

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Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
« Reply #59 on: June 17, 2009, 06:22:57 am »
I have never seen a pack referee mistakenly call off a jam.  This includes times when I know they were given the authority to call off jams. 

I have seen it... and it's a bad situation.

I have seen this too. Once had an OPR "do me a favor" by calling off a jam because my jammer was signaling a call-off from the ground. No one gave him the authority to do it, and in his mad rush to play "one-up the jammer ref," he missed the fact that I had just called a major on her.  DayGlo was not pleased. >:(

yep... ive had a similar thing too

an inside pack ref called off the jam when he saw the jammer signal... totally missing that i'd just majored the jammer

very frustrating... and impacts on the game

PM summed up my feelings on this perfectly...
Quote from: Professor Murder
In many cases, such as this, "going above and beyond" is not that, but, in fact, stepping on toes and fucking things up.

Referee crews are teams, and work best as teams.  If you cannot work as a team member, you need to learn how.


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