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Author Topic: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice  (Read 63506 times)

Offline ttjustice

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Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
« Reply #60 on: June 17, 2009, 04:41:02 pm »
As a head ref, I'm typically very polite and calm on the track in the middle of a crowd.

There are exceptions - i.e., when a pack referee calls off the jam before anyone else.

Echo to call - lawd a'mighty, echo the call.  Do not initiate it.

There are at a minimum, 4 distinct skating referee positions on a derby track that is fully staffed.

There is a corresponding division of labor and list of responsibilities for each of those positions.

In many cases, such as this, "going above and beyond" is not that, but, in fact, stepping on toes and fucking things up.

Referee crews are teams, and work best as teams.  If you cannot work as a team member, you need to learn how.

Jam refs call the jam off except for (1) injury and (2) time expiration of the jam.  Always.

Well said Murder!  Having reffed under his system for the first time a couple weeks ago as a guest ref in Cinci I thought it worked great.  I also loved the fact that (as I recall) his last words to the ref crew at the pre bout meeting were:

" Remember to judge on impact to the game.  Rollerderby is a contact sport but contact or someone falling down does not necessarily mean illegal impact occurred.  If you see it call it, otherwise if your not sure let it go."

Timothy T. Justice
Ohio Roller Girls Head of Officiating 2011-2013
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WFTDA Rules Theory Clerk

Offline Bishop

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Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
« Reply #61 on: June 17, 2009, 05:44:03 pm »
This is one place where I would be very concerned with as a visiting ref.
shared
I don't think this is a place where there should be any deviation. Know your role. A pack ref shouldn't be calling off jams for a jammer for a multitude of reasons.
What role?  Could someone please direct me to a place where these roles are defined?

You aren't taking into consideration the fact that the jammer may have committed a last second major that the jammer ref was about to call.
I am referring to situations where it is obvious that the Jam Ref is out of position or that their view is obstructed.  Root cause: inexperience and/or poor skating skill.

The number of times a jammer tries to call it off when she is lead will be far greater than the number of times she tries to call it off when not lead.
The number of times that a jammer will try to call off a jam immediately following a major penalty will be relatively small as compared to when she is still lead.
Yes, my experience indicates the same.

The smaller number in both cases is the number of chances a jammer ref has to make a mistake in calling off the jam.
Mistake as in being out of position or having their view obstructed?  If so, my experience is not the same.  Root cause: inexperience and/or poor skating skill.

Any time you add a ref who is allowed to call off the jam as well, you are multiplying that chance of mistakes.
Also, you are worrying about game effect. Yes, it has an effect if a jammer ref takes an extra 5 seconds to call off a jam. In trying to counteract that, you have a possibility of messing with the balance created by jammer refs swapping teams at the half. Screwing up that balance can have a very large game effect as well.
There is a corresponding division of labor and list of responsibilities for each of those positions.
There is?  What are they?  I want to know.
  
In many cases, such as this, "going above and beyond" is not that, but, in fact, stepping on toes and fucking things up.
Referee crews are teams, and work best as teams.  
If you cannot work as a team member, you need to learn how.
Well said Murder!  Having reffed under his system for the first time a couple weeks ago as a guest ref in Cinci I thought it worked great.  I also loved the fact that (as I recall) his last words to the ref crew at the pre bout meeting were:

" Remember to judge on impact to the game.  Rollerderby is a contact sport but contact or someone falling down does not necessarily mean illegal impact occurred.  If you see it call it, otherwise if your not sure let it go."

I am truly envious of the opportunity to work with an experienced referee with a deep understanding of the game.  Since I have no handbook to go by and no experienced referees to work with, I have to make up and make due as I go.  

« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 05:46:54 pm by Bishop »
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Offline Major Wood

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Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
« Reply #62 on: June 17, 2009, 06:12:41 pm »
This is one place where I would be very concerned with as a visiting ref.
shared

I'd be concerned for the integrity of the game. It is a common enough practice that I have not been involved with a bout that has even suggested the possibility of pack referees calling off the jam for a jammer.

I don't think this is a place where there should be any deviation. Know your role. A pack ref shouldn't be calling off jams for a jammer for a multitude of reasons.
What role?  Could someone please direct me to a place where these roles are defined?

This isn't defined, it is assumed. Jammer refs are working directly with their jammer. Just as pack referees should not be calling minors on jammers (as per best practices), pack referees should not be calling off jams for jammers.

You aren't taking into consideration the fact that the jammer may have committed a last second major that the jammer ref was about to call.
I am referring to situations where it is obvious that the Jam Ref is out of position or that their view is obstructed.  Root cause: inexperience and/or poor skating skill.

Pure and simple, I don't care if the jammer ref is inexperienced or can't skate well. If they are the one picked to do the job, let them do it to the best of their ability. Don't provide a crutch.

The number of times a jammer tries to call it off when she is lead will be far greater than the number of times she tries to call it off when not lead.
The number of times that a jammer will try to call off a jam immediately following a major penalty will be relatively small as compared to when she is still lead.
Yes, my experience indicates the same.

The smaller number in both cases is the number of chances a jammer ref has to make a mistake in calling off the jam.
Mistake as in being out of position or having their view obstructed?  If so, my experience is not the same.  Root cause: inexperience and/or poor skating skill.

Any time you add a ref who is allowed to call off the jam as well, you are multiplying that chance of mistakes.

The point of all of that is that the relatively small number of times where a mistake can be made (mistake, as in mistakenly calling off the jam) is made into a MUCH larger number when you add pack refs calling off the jam into the equation.

Also, you are worrying about game effect. Yes, it has an effect if a jammer ref takes an extra 5 seconds to call off a jam. In trying to counteract that, you have a possibility of messing with the balance created by jammer refs swapping teams at the half. Screwing up that balance can have a very large game effect as well.

They will certainly balance each other out moreso than if you add more variables (pack refs involved in call-offs). If the jam ref's view is obstructed and you (as a pack ref) see their jammer trying to call the jam off, tell the jammer ref so they can make the decision to call it off. Communication is key here.
DON'T have your pack refs call off the jam. You are providing a crutch to your jammer refs, as well as teaching your pack refs bad habits.
Your friendly Zebra Huddle admin.

Nashville Roller Derby Head Ref
WFTDA Level 5 Certified Referee

I speak only of my opinions and interpretations.

Offline Professor Murder

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Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
« Reply #63 on: June 17, 2009, 06:33:40 pm »
Quote
There is a corresponding division of labor and list of responsibilities for each of those positions.
There is?  What are they?  I want to know.

That would be a good thread to start/discussion to have.  Too much to list here - but we all conform to many of them already.  Pack refs don't track points scored in a jam, for instance.
  
Quote
In many cases, such as this, "going above and beyond" is not that, but, in fact, stepping on toes and fucking things up.

GAAB = not using the proper means of communication or taking something into your own hands that is not yours.  Flying from the outside to the inside to send off a skater you saw commit a major, for instance.  You've shirked your duties on the outside.  Drop it off to the inside, if you can.  

GAAB = not using the resources (other referees) available to you.

Quote
Referee crews are teams, and work best as teams.  

Right.  It may have been useful, but I still disagree that they should have called it.  

Quote
If you cannot work as a team member, you need to learn how.

That document is not updated but once per year.  You'll have to have faith that this is the standard practice for most other leagues, as well as understand the rationale behind why this is the case.  
Philly Roller Girls
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Offline Duncan Disorderly

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Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
« Reply #64 on: June 17, 2009, 07:21:44 pm »
I have witnessed a Jammer Ref mistakenly call off a Jam because they thought their Jammer was calling it when she was just going for an assist or something.  It was messy and unpleasant (it wasn't me, thankfully)
I have been that jam ref, being too keen on the whistle and misinterpreting a move the jammer made as being the the first split second movements of the jam calling motion. Thankfully it was the last jam of a practice scrimmage session, but both teams did stop and give me a look like I'd just punched a baby or something. NEVER WILL I DO IT AGAIN.

EDIT to address the subject at hand: I think it would be more useful for pack refs to mirror the jam-calling-off hands-on-hips motion so that the jam ref can see it is being done and call it even when out of position or unsighted, rather than calling it themselves. That way it saves on potential confusion, it maintains the consistency of there being only two refs calling jams off, and should ensure that the jam ref can always be aware of what their jammer is doing, even if totally unsighted for whatever reason.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2009, 07:29:43 pm by Duncan Disorderly »
Duncan Disorderly
Referee
London Rollergirls

Offline Bishop

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Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
« Reply #65 on: June 17, 2009, 09:25:56 pm »
Communication is key here.
Here's my takeaway from this discussion.  +1 for that. 

DON'T have your pack refs call off the jam. You are providing a crutch to your jammer refs, as well as teaching your pack refs bad habits.
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Offline Darkjester

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Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
« Reply #66 on: June 18, 2009, 05:10:10 am »
We should also be clear and concise. Only the Lead Jam ref should call off the Jam if the Lead Jammer is signaling it.  Said LJ may have just committed a Major penalty and be in the process of being sent to the box by the LJ Ref, so if another ref see's the signal and calls it inadvertantly they've countermanned the LJ Ref responsibility and given the Jammer now 2 Majors ( One for the initial action, 1 for calling it off illegally.)

However, in the case of an injury, spectator/debris/safety issue, ANY ref can call off the Jam at anytime. The HR, Jam Refs might be so engrossed in the pack or their Jam refs they miss something potentially disastrous that the jam needed calling off for.

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Offline Bishop

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Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
« Reply #67 on: June 22, 2009, 03:43:36 pm »
I have got to hear the hows and whys of a pack ref mistakenly calling off a jam.  I mean, pesonally, I don't see it happening very often (I've never seen it, but you know what I mean).  Its seems pretty obvious to me who the Lead Jammer is because of the Jam Ref holding out their right arm.  
Who did that
« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 04:18:15 pm by Bishop »
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Offline Brad Religion

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Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
« Reply #68 on: June 22, 2009, 05:01:21 pm »
So, uh... I was head ref for the first time over the weekend. I whistled a jam dead on the LJ's signal once because her jam ref was communicating something with the inside.

I prefer letting my jam refs do that job, but I didn't feel bad about it in that case, either.

As far as echoing goes, we had trouble in a recent bout with the non-lead jam ref counting points during the echoed whistle blasts... Weird things happened as a result. On the other hand, the venue we played in this past weekend (for the first time) was smaller than I'm used to and our fans were packed in tighter. As a result, the jam ref's whistles were apparently harder to hear/distinguish because we all had to echo the four blasts several times to get the jam to actually stop.

Yeah. I have no definite answers or ideas in my mind. Just sharing what happened to us.
Bleeding Heartland Roller Girls
Bloomington, IN

Offline Major Wood

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Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
« Reply #69 on: June 22, 2009, 05:25:40 pm »
The answers I have for you are the following:

The jammer ref needs to learn proper whistle technique.
When echoing the four whistles, every four whistles needs to be distinct from the others. Noone should begin to echo until the first four whistles are complete and about a second has elapsed. Allow for approximately a second between echoes.
Your friendly Zebra Huddle admin.

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I speak only of my opinions and interpretations.

Offline JoeXCore

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Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
« Reply #70 on: June 22, 2009, 06:02:40 pm »
...and every have good whistles and practice using them.

Fox 40s can be VERY loud when used properly.
Black n Bluegrass Roller Girls - head referee
MRDA Recognized Refree

Offline Brad Religion

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Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
« Reply #71 on: June 22, 2009, 06:12:26 pm »
Okay, to clear up potential confusion, I wasn't working the bout where there were scoring issues (Curse this broken leg), but it was a mess that made me nervous about so many whistles blowing at the end of the jam.

And yes, my jam ref needs his new whistle. I've got one that I'm going to give him at practice this week, in fact. He's managed with his crappy old whistle to this point, but this venue was almost completely different from our usual. No one had a problem hearing my Fox 40 at all.
Bleeding Heartland Roller Girls
Bloomington, IN

Offline JoeXCore

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Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
« Reply #72 on: June 22, 2009, 09:04:46 pm »
sometimes a guess is the right answer.

Fox 40 > shitty whistles
Black n Bluegrass Roller Girls - head referee
MRDA Recognized Refree

Offline DayGlo Divine

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Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
« Reply #73 on: June 22, 2009, 09:43:49 pm »
Last night, I realized that sometimes, even a properly used Fox 40 isn't even enough. My jammer, who had lead, called off the jam. I blew the jam dead twice myself and heard at least one or two echoes from elsewhere on the track. The pack heard NONE OF THEM. It was a pretty spectacular "Mystery Science Derby 3000" moment, and I may invest in a Sonik after all.
WFTDA Certified Referee (Level 2)
Charm City Roller Girls
Opinions expressed here are mine. Not WFTDA's, not Charm City's, and not those of Zebra Huddle as a whole.

Offline BatFasterson

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Re: Pre-Bout Meeting and other Head Ref advice
« Reply #74 on: June 22, 2009, 09:53:34 pm »
Last night, I realized that sometimes, even a properly used Fox 40 isn't even enough. My jammer, who had lead, called off the jam. I blew the jam dead twice myself and heard at least one or two echoes from elsewhere on the track. The pack heard NONE OF THEM. It was a pretty spectacular "Mystery Science Derby 3000" moment, and I may invest in a Sonik after all.

Most of the time my Fox 40 has been sufficient but I've had a couple of similar experiences. One was at a smaller rink that was playing a loud metal/punk soundtrack and it was difficult to hear. The other was at Dorton, when the crowd was hyped and the pack was at the other end of the track.

Both times I tried to handle the situation first by making sure I was facing the pack and, when that didn't work, by racing toward the other refs and continuing to blow the jam dead. I didn't feel entirely comfortable leaving my jammer but in each case she was skating in open track and calling the jam anyway.
Star City Roller Girls, Roanoke, VA
New River Valley Roller Girls, Blacksburg, VA
Opinions expressed here are my own.

 

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