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Author Topic: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass  (Read 21933 times)

Offline angri-la

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Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« on: February 10, 2009, 10:47:22 am »
Ballisitic and I had a conversation about this last night and I just wanted to check we had reached the correct conclusion.

Jammer passes star to Pivot. WasPivotNowJammer gets sent to the penalty box. Other Jammer also in box - Jammerless Jam. WasPivotNowJammer has to pass Jammer panty to teammate. Can she pass it back to the original Jammer? (we think yes, why not) What about her pivot panty that was under the Jammer panty? (we think she keeps this on and returns to being pivot)
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Offline Riff Reff

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2009, 10:56:41 am »
I agree with the two of you... the original jammer became a blocker and as the jam is called off she can take the panty for the following jam... original pivot (now jammer in the box) gives away jammer panty and becomes a blocker (who can be a pivot).
I don't see any problem there.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 10:58:23 am by Riff Reff »
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Offline angri-la

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2009, 11:02:46 am »
I agree with the two of you... the original jammer became a blocker and as the jam is called off she can take the panty for the following jam... original pivot (now jammer in the box) gives away jammer panty and becomes a blocker (who can be a pivot).
I don't see any problem there.

Do you think she should be allowed to hand off the pivot panty as well though? She wasn't sent to the box as pivot so the penalising the position thing doesn't really apply. I would lean towards not allowing her to hand off the pivot panty but don't really know why I feel that and am willing to be corrected.
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Offline Riff Reff

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2009, 11:15:44 am »
well I see what the problem is:

6.4.5.1 Players on the track may rotate position, but no player substitutions from the bench are allowed.

now you can interpret this as: players on the track may rotate... so the pivot panty stays in the box...
but that's just an interpretation...

6.4.5.2 Any skater who was in the jam that was stopped may take on the role of Jammer. If the Pivot takes on the role, she should give the Pivot helmet cover to another teammate on the track.

it says IF the pivot takes on the role but in this case the pivot cannot become the jammer because she was the jammer at the end of the jam...

so I don't find anything that allows a helmet cover to be handed over from the box except the jammer panty in the case of a jammerless jam... it is just a pity that the rules say 'helmet cover' not 'jammer helmet cover'... but I am convinced only the latter was meant...
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 11:18:38 am by Riff Reff »
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Offline Darkjester

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2009, 01:36:30 pm »
I love these games cause it makes my work my ref brain.

ok.  First things first, for the above scenario, for all intents and purposes forget that a "Star Pass " occurred.

If a Jammerless Jam situation occurs one the 'meat hits the seat' if the first Jammer in the box does not have <10 seconds left, whistles are blown and the Jammerless Jam is called off.

At that point both "Jammers" still in the box, hand off the Jammer Panty to one of the team members still 'in' THAT Jam, to restart with 2 Jammers.

Who is made the 'new' Jammer during the followup to the jammerless jam doesn't matter as long as its one of the original skaters from the preceding jam.

As for the "Original Pivot" Panty I could see where it stays in the box with the penaltied player, or I could also see where it too would allow to be swapped but I'm leaning towards the former because the Jammerless Jam section of the rules says nothing about swapping out pivots panties too.

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Offline Matt the Knife

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2009, 09:26:59 pm »
Agreed with the above, I think the initial jammer can become the jammer again, nothing against it in the rules.

The pivot thing, as Darkjester put it, made my ref brain work too, and purely on the wording of the rules mentioning only the jammer cover, I would say she remains pivot in the box.
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Offline angri-la

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2009, 09:31:16 pm »
The thing is, I feel the girl in the box should keep the pivot cover but if there's nothing in the rules to say they can't hand it off in this situation then we can't stop skaters doing so.
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Offline Major Wood

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2009, 10:33:26 pm »
The thing is, I feel the girl in the box should keep the pivot cover but if there's nothing in the rules to say they can't hand it off in this situation then we can't stop skaters doing so.

Except 6.4.5 explicitly states that the jammer cover is to be given to one of the current blockers.

Quote
6.4.5 JAMMERLESS JAM
If both Jammers are in the penalty box at the start of a jam or are pulled mid-jam, both
Jammers will turn over their helmet covers to alternate teammates on the track who will
serve as Jammers
, and a new jam will start. The penalized Jammers in the box will re-enter
play as Blockers once their penalties have been served. This rule applies to all
circumstances when both Jammers are missing from the track. The jam is not whistled
dead until the second Jammer has reached the penalty box, is seated, and her penalty time
has begun. The jam will not be stopped and will continue should the first penalized
Jammer have 10 seconds or less remaining on her penalty (see Section 6.4.3.1).

Also, 6.4.5.2 explicitly states when a pivot helmet cover can be given to another blocker in a jammerless jam situation.

Quote
6.4.5.2 Any skater who was in the jam that was stopped may take on the role of Jammer.
If the Pivot takes on the role, she should give the Pivot helmet cover to another teammate
on the track.


So, the rules state specifically when either of the helmet covers can be given to another skater. By explicitly defining this, any variations of this are not permitted.
The pivot was not on the track at the end of the jam, so she could not receive the jammer helmet cover. By not receiving the jammer helmet cover, she cannot give her pivot helmet cover to another skater.
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Offline Riff Reff

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2009, 10:45:51 pm »
Quote
The pivot was not on the track at the end of the jam, so she could not receive the jammer helmet cover. By not receiving the jammer helmet cover, she cannot give her pivot helmet cover to another skater.

as much as I agree with you.. but isn't that reading between the lines? or like adding something to it?

If the Pivot takes on the role, she should give the Pivot helmet cover to another teammate on the track.if not she must keep her helmet cover.

(I am still trying to figure out how to deal with the rules)

because I would rather refer to

6.3.1.1 A skater who acquires a major penalty must immediately leave the track and go to
the penalty box. Her team must play short, without the skater and the position she was
playing
until the penalty has expired (With exceptions defined in Section 6.4.2.)

« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 10:49:29 pm by Riff Reff »
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Offline Major Wood

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2009, 10:50:22 pm »
as much as I agree with you.. but isn't that reading between the lines? or like adding something to it?

It absolutely isn't. Here's 6.4.5 again, with different emphasis.

Quote
6.4.5 JAMMERLESS JAM
If both Jammers are in the penalty box at the start of a jam or are pulled mid-jam, both
Jammers will turn over their helmet covers to alternate teammates on the track who will
serve as Jammers, and a new jam will start. The penalized Jammers in the box will re-enter
play as Blockers once their penalties have been served. This rule applies to all
circumstances when both Jammers are missing from the track. The jam is not whistled
dead until the second Jammer has reached the penalty box, is seated, and her penalty time
has begun. The jam will not be stopped and will continue should the first penalized
Jammer have 10 seconds or less remaining on her penalty (see Section 6.4.3.1).

The skater the jammer turns her helmet cover over to must be on the track. The pivot is in the penalty box, which is NOT on the track. So the pivot cannot receive the helmet cover, and therefore does not meet the criteria of turning over her helmet cover.
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Offline Riff Reff

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2009, 10:59:32 pm »
alright... that is how I read it too... as I posted.. I am still figuring it out... thanks for the assurance
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 11:08:13 pm by Riff Reff »
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Offline Johnny Zebra

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2009, 12:23:58 am »
Isn't the real question here whether the pivot, once she becomes a jammer from a star pass, is still the pivot as well? So you're saying that she's really two positions in one? Jammer and a Pivot? And after she becomes jammer, and the jam ends, she goes back to being a pivot?

Pivot panty under the star or not, I always assumed she was no longer the pivot because she was now playing the position of jammer, as per 3.5.6.3. And I'd assume that change in position would follow her into the penalty box, where she also would no longer be her old position.

3.5.6.3 A Pivot who has taken the position of Jammer for her team by means of a
successful helmet cover pass will play the position of Jammer for the duration of the jam.


I'd never really thought about it before, but if the PivotNowJammer goes to the box, and we have a jammerless jam, I'd have considered her the jammer, not the pivot (like angri-La). So she hands off her star panty, and another pivot could also be determined.

But I'd never really thought about it before; it's an interesting question.

~j.z.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 12:27:42 am by Johnny Zebra »
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Offline Major Wood

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2009, 12:28:48 am »
Oh. I had ignored a large part of this thread. I was only really commenting on what would happen with a pivot in the box during a jammerless jam.

It is an interesting question, indeed.
I'm tempted to say that my logic would stand, but that depends on if she becomes a pivot in the jammerless jam. Which, I don't know if she does.
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Offline Johnny Zebra

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2009, 12:45:44 am »
Oh. I had ignored a large part of this thread. I was only really commenting on what would happen with a pivot in the box during a jammerless jam.


Oh - I see. I'd say pivot in the box is a pivot in the box. Positions carry over in the box between jams, and jammerless jam rules only specify jammer star being switched out.

~j.z.
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Offline Major Wood

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2009, 01:05:49 am »
Right, so does the former pivot become pivot again in a jammerless jam situation? I'm thinking yes.
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