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Author Topic: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass  (Read 21973 times)

Offline angri-la

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2009, 02:40:58 pm »
It doesn't seem like any of us can agree on what happens with the pivot panty. I basically see 3 options once WasPivotNowJammer gets sent to box and hands off Jammer panty:
a) she hands off Pivot panty to teammate on the track
b) she keeps Pivot panty on and after serving her penalty returns to the track as Pivot
c) she removes Pivot panty and discards it/returns it to the bench, the jam proceeds with no Pivot, she returns to track as a Blocker.

Anyone think they have a definitive answer or if this is worth officially putting to the powers that be?
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Offline Major Wood

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2009, 02:45:21 pm »
I think after reading through this thread, the correct answer is C.
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Offline Three Majors

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2009, 07:22:42 pm »
My 10 cents worth would be option C, the team were already short a pivot when the panty was passed (albeit they had 4 blockers (pending other blockers serving penalties)). They still have all the players they are entitled too under the circumstances. So if when the start was passed they were allowed by the rules to jam without a pivot, then it follows they can start the new jam without the pivot.

If the pivot is sent to the box and is held there for another jam she reenters as pivot and her team start without a pivot. When she hands over the star for Jammerless Jam she becomes a blocker.

That's my taking on it.
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Offline L8R SK8R

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2009, 09:32:18 pm »
I'm gonna say C as well. She isn't the pivot anymore so she can't return as a pivot, but the next jam should start without a pivot because the jam that resulted in a jammerless jam ended without a pivot on the track.

Offline Cliquework

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2009, 11:16:14 pm »

2: Can you rotate into any position or only positions that are on the track at that time?  I can understand interpreting the rules either way on this one, but I would lean towards only positions that are on the track at that time because it fits with the spirit of the jammerless jam rule. So I would say that since there is no pivot to start with, they should skate without one for the jammerless jam.


I like this reasoning, but an additional consequence of NOT passing the Pivot cover is this:
 - The team that passed the star is forced to skate the ensuing jam without the ability to pass the star again in that jam. 
 - The team that didn't pass the star can pass the star in the ensuing jam.
 - This creates an inequity between teams that is completely unrelated to either original penalty -- is it fair to impose this, or is it just one of the accepted risks of passing the star in the first place? 

Given that when the Pivot becomes the Jammer, she is no longer the Pivot -- that seems clear from 3.5.6.3 -- then the team is skating without a Pivot (which is fine by 3.2.1).  So per Oedipus, there is no Pivot position for anyone to rotate into for the entire next jam.

So as a general principle: Teams that pass the star should be ready to skate the next jam without a pivot if there is a jammerless jam situation. 



Thanks Howie. Came here to say that, but read all first before saying something that someone already had. You have been appropriately Slammed.

Oh, and while I'm inclined to say C, it's also creating an impossible situation. Once the ex-pivot returns to the track and there are now 4 blockers on the track, how is it that not one of them is a pivot. That position should exist if there are 4 blockers.

*Black Hole just formed in the penalty box*

As Howie said, it's just hard for me to allow the advantage to one team in the new jam. Yet, big rewards don't come without big risks....I can live with C. Though A could fit as well an I feel more comfortable with it. Her Pivot position dissapeared when she became a Jammer For That Jam. Pivot no longer exists for That Jam. Though not mentioned in the rules, it could stand to reason that the Pivot position is now open for the New Jam and could be fielded from the remaining skaters accordingly, as the ex jammer/pivot is now neither.

Coming soon.... in 3.1.1
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Offline Major Wood

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2009, 11:25:16 pm »
A couple things here.
A jammerless jam consists of the skaters on the track, and eventually those in the box.
When a pivot places the jammer helmet cover on her helmet, she becomes jammer. She also ceases to be pivot.
A pivot IS a blocker. A full lineup is a jammer and 4 blockers, one of which happens to be a pivot.
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Offline Riff Reff

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2009, 09:29:34 am »
Quote
A pivot IS a blocker. A full lineup is a jammer and 4 blockers, one of which happens to be a pivot.

If Pivots are optional there can be a Jam with 4 Blockers none of them being the Pivot. It is also possible that one of them forgot to wear the helmet cover. You would start the jam regardless, wouldn't you?
I am just thinking... the new jam is a new jam. You penalise player AND position. But the (formerPivotnow) Jammer got sent to the box. You did not penalise the Pivot. The more I think about it I would go for A since its a new jam, not a restart.
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Offline angri-la

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2009, 10:31:48 am »



Oh, and while I'm inclined to say C, it's also creating an impossible situation. Once the ex-pivot returns to the track and there are now 4 blockers on the track, how is it that not one of them is a pivot. That position should exist if there are 4 blockers.



I don't see why this is an impossible situation. 4 blockers none of whom is pivot is exactly what you normally have after a star pass.
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Offline Three Majors

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2009, 11:50:06 am »
I am just thinking... the new jam is a new jam.

But it is not a "completely" new jam, in that you can't rotate any of the players, you have to play with the players that were on the track.
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Offline Riff Reff

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2009, 12:34:55 pm »
new is new (e.g. clock is not reset). with the exceptions described in 6.4.5
« Last Edit: February 20, 2009, 12:38:45 pm by Riff Reff »
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Offline Cliquework

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #40 on: February 20, 2009, 02:02:48 pm »



Oh, and while I'm inclined to say C, it's also creating an impossible situation. Once the ex-pivot returns to the track and there are now 4 blockers on the track, how is it that not one of them is a pivot. That position should exist if there are 4 blockers.



I don't see why this is an impossible situation. 4 blockers none of whom is pivot is exactly what you normally have after a star pass.

Granted. But that was last jam.

However, I do believe we can all see where each other is coming from on this. It just seems there's just no concrete way to rule this either way. That being the case, what happens when we decide on it here (if we do).
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Offline Major Wood

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #41 on: February 20, 2009, 02:37:15 pm »
This is one that I don't think we will all agree on.
So if it comes up in a bout, remember these discussions, and make the decision to the best of your ability.
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