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Author Topic: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass  (Read 22387 times)

Offline Riff Reff

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2009, 08:08:07 am »
that is where "players on the track may rotate..."  comes into play... and my question was: is that too much interpretation if you read it like "ONLY players on the track may rotate positions".
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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2009, 09:00:37 am »
It seems to me that the Jammerless Jam, in this case, is also Pivotless. 

The skater in the box is no longer the Jammer, but she was no longer the Pivot when she became the Jammer. 

Like Major Wood pointed out, the rules only specify handing off the Pivot helmet cover when the former Pivot is the new Jammer.  This isn't the case.  The rules don't say she CAN'T hand off the helmet cover, but we all know that's a slippery slope...

Since the player AND position are penalized, and there was no Pivot when the jam was called, what makes sense to me is for her to stay in the box as a Blocker, but not hand off the Pivot cover either.  If she comes out of the box during the Jammerless Jam, her team has 4 Blockers and no Pivot.  They can field a Pivot in the next jam, whether or not she's out of the box.

This this make sense to anyone else, or am I insane?
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Offline Matt the Knife

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2009, 11:41:36 am »
Having said all this, the rules also say in 6.4.5 "The penalized Jammers in the box will re-enter play as Blockers"

It all depends on whether people see this as Blockers straight up or count the Pivot as a glorified Blocker (in that they take up a Blocker seat in the sin bin.)?
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Offline L8R SK8R

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2009, 11:59:43 am »
3.5.6.3 A Pivot who has taken the position of Jammer for her team by means of a
successful helmet cover pass will play the position of Jammer for the duration of the jam.
3.5.6.4 A Jammer who successfully completes a helmet cover pass to her Pivot will play
the position of Blocker
for the remainder of the jam.

The pivot has become the jammer and the jammer has become a non-pivot blocker. So if there is a jammerless jam it is the same as not having had a pivot on the track for that jam. That being said, since the pivot position was not on the track at the time the jammerless jam was called (there was no pivot anymore), it can't be added for the next jam.

Offline angri-la

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2009, 12:08:35 pm »
So they should remove and discard the pivot panty?
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Offline L8R SK8R

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2009, 12:29:00 pm »
I would think it should be retrieved with the jammer panty and left at the bench until the next jam, when they will be allowed to have a pivot again.

Offline Johnny Zebra

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2009, 08:33:27 pm »
Right, so does the former pivot become pivot again in a jammerless jam situation? I'm thinking yes.

I'm thinking no, if she became a jammer via a star pass. See my post above. But there's nothing official out there about it, so go with your gut. 

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Offline Oedipus_Ref

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2009, 01:17:16 am »

Pivot panty under the star or not, I always assumed she was no longer the pivot because she was now playing the position of jammer, as per 3.5.6.3. And I'd assume that change in position would follow her into the penalty box, where she also would no longer be her old position.

3.5.6.3 A Pivot who has taken the position of Jammer for her team by means of a
successful helmet cover pass will play the position of Jammer for the duration of the jam.


I'd never really thought about it before, but if the PivotNowJammer goes to the box, and we have a jammerless jam, I'd have considered her the jammer, not the pivot (like angri-La). So she hands off her star panty, and another pivot could also be determined.

~j.z.


My initial reaction was much like this, only I thought that since there was no pivot for that team in the jam anymore, then it couldn't be rotated in with the jammerless jam. As I was reading the jammerless jam rules, though, it says:

6.4.5.1 Players on the track may rotate position, but no player substitutions from the
bench are allowed.


1: Is the pivot considered a position?    I would say yes.
2: Can you rotate into any position or only positions that are on the track at that time?  I can understand interpreting the rules either way on this one, but I would lean towards only positions that are on the track at that time because it fits with the spirit of the jammerless jam rule. So I would say that since there is no pivot to start with, they should skate without one for the jammerless jam.
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Offline L8R SK8R

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2009, 02:12:21 am »
My initial reaction was much like this, only I thought that since there was no pivot for that team in the jam anymore, then it couldn't be rotated in with the jammerless jam. As I was reading the jammerless jam rules, though, it says:

6.4.5.1 Players on the track may rotate position, but no player substitutions from the
bench are allowed.


1: Is the pivot considered a position?    I would say yes.
2: Can you rotate into any position or only positions that are on the track at that time?  I can understand interpreting the rules either way on this one, but I would lean towards only positions that are on the track at that time because it fits with the spirit of the jammerless jam rule. So I would say that since there is no pivot to start with, they should skate without one for the jammerless jam.

Agreed. The pivot is a position and if its not on the track then it can't be rotated into.

Offline Johnny Zebra

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2009, 02:29:50 pm »
Good point. And, unofficial word from powers that be: pivots are optional.

~j.z.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2009, 02:31:21 pm by Johnny Zebra »
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Offline Darkjester

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #25 on: February 13, 2009, 03:12:54 pm »
Unofficial word as "Pivots are optional" meaning, "You don't have to have a pivot to play the Jam".. OR

Unofficial word as "Pivots are optional" meaning , "You have the option of giving the pivot panty to the team for that jam" ?

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Offline Jessticular Fortitude

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #26 on: February 13, 2009, 03:56:39 pm »
You don't have to have a Pivot to play the jam.
Hey look, a search function! Right up there! No on the left

Perhaps we should all spend a little more time reading and a little less time making shit up.

Offline Darkjester

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #27 on: February 18, 2009, 05:50:58 pm »
Gracias Jess..
I hate it when the "powers from above" are vague in their responses. I think they sometimes do that on purpose J/K
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Offline L8R SK8R

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #28 on: February 18, 2009, 05:57:40 pm »
I think they make it vague so you can't say to another ref "Well, so and so ref said that it is supposed to be called this way!" That happened to me recently, where a ref quoted a well known, well experienced WFDTA ref when making a call, one that has been repeatedly called wrong here. I left that part out of my original post to avoid hearsay. Needless to say, I'm sure the WFTDA ref didn't actually make the call as quoted.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 05:59:43 pm by L8R SK8R »

Offline howie~swerve

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Re: Jammerless Jam following a Star Pass
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2009, 02:37:09 am »

2: Can you rotate into any position or only positions that are on the track at that time?  I can understand interpreting the rules either way on this one, but I would lean towards only positions that are on the track at that time because it fits with the spirit of the jammerless jam rule. So I would say that since there is no pivot to start with, they should skate without one for the jammerless jam.


I like this reasoning, but an additional consequence of NOT passing the Pivot cover is this:
 - The team that passed the star is forced to skate the ensuing jam without the ability to pass the star again in that jam. 
 - The team that didn't pass the star can pass the star in the ensuing jam.
 - This creates an inequity between teams that is completely unrelated to either original penalty -- is it fair to impose this, or is it just one of the accepted risks of passing the star in the first place? 

Given that when the Pivot becomes the Jammer, she is no longer the Pivot -- that seems clear from 3.5.6.3 -- then the team is skating without a Pivot (which is fine by 3.2.1).  So per Oedipus, there is no Pivot position for anyone to rotate into for the entire next jam.

So as a general principle: Teams that pass the star should be ready to skate the next jam without a pivot if there is a jammerless jam situation. 

« Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 02:39:04 am by howie~swerve »
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