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Author Topic: Jam timing official time-outs  (Read 6839 times)

Offline Formalhaut

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Jam timing official time-outs
« on: August 30, 2012, 03:11:09 pm »
Hey everybody,

consider this: Jam ends, skaters line up, somebody calls an official time-out (in my league any official can demand a time-out at any time). Jam timer stops period clock, clocks the time-out, referees discuss something for two minutes, skaters are still lined up, then the head referee demands in accordance with the rules a five-second-warning. After five seconds jam and period clock start again.

This is probably a familiar scenario to most of us. But with a growing number of official time-outs the number of jams increases. I had to hand out additional score sheets many times.

Now it was brought to my attention that all jams exceeding the original score sheet cannot be processed in the stats book/the ibrf.

So here's my question: What are the 30 seconds between jams exactly there for? and: Should the jam timer run the period clock for 30 seconds during official time-outs?

Thanks in advance and I hope my question wasn't trivial.

Cheers

Formalhaut

Offline Eject You Later

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Re: Jam timing official time-outs
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2012, 03:23:17 pm »
Why would the number of jams increase?

With no OTOs:

Jam 1
30 sec line-up
Jam 2

With OTOs:

Jam 1
15 secs into the line-up and OTO is called
2 minute OTO
5 second line-up
Jam 2

The OTO does not create a null jam or anything.  It delays the start of the next jam.  What are you doing that is increasing the amount of jams?  Generally, the only reason that you will go beyond 25 jams per half is with "hit it and quit it" strategies by skaters, which result in very short jams.  But that has nothing to do with OTOs...
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Offline reflmao

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Re: Jam timing official time-outs
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2012, 03:39:01 pm »
The back half of your answer is that by 2.6.5 we know the Clock doesn't start until the jam does.   

[rule]2.6.5 After a timeout the period clock does not resume until the next jam starts.[/rule]

2.6.2 and 2.6.4 tell us the clock stops as soon as any kind of timeout is called and also say that "Referees may call an Official Timeout at any point".

That still doesn't tell us when we should call the timeout.   So far as I know there is no official guidance on this.  It's not mentioned in either the standard practices doc or officiating manual.

I've seen some HR's who wait most of the 30 seconds to expire before calling any OTO in order to run down the clock.  I'm not a fan of that myself.   What I do depends on how long I think it will take to do what I need to.  if I think I can deal with whatever's come up within the 30 seconds I leave the clock running and deal with it, starting the next jam on time.  If we're delayed and I have to stop the clock I will.   If I think that what I need to deal with will take long than the time remaining I will stop the clock as soon as I figure that out.

While I understand the desire to not break the paperwork; I can't in good conscience change how the game flows for the sake of the paperwork.   Others may be able to tell you how to better handle the situation when a game runs over on the number of jams.
RCRD, Rochester, NY

Offline PackMan

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Re: Jam timing official time-outs
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2012, 06:33:04 pm »
Why would the number of jams increase?

With no OTOs:

Jam 1
30 sec line-up
Jam 2

With OTOs:

Jam 1
15 secs into the line-up and OTO is called
2 minute OTO
5 second line-up
Jam 2
Eject, You answered your own question.  The latter example allows for 10 more seconds of playing time.  that's enough for a "hit it and quit it".  Several of thoe a period and it becomes noticable.  That being said, I think Riff Reff's explanation to be the most functional solution.  It gives the best chance of game flow, without adding playing time.

Offline bjmacke

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Re: Jam timing official time-outs
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2012, 12:35:43 am »
Beware of what might have been common that has become discouraged. Jam Timers are strongly encouraged to start an OTO the moment a jam start is in jeopardy, be that at second 3, 15, 25, or 29 of the lineup time. Do not pause until the 29th second to start an OTO you knew you needed at the 3rd second, because it Looks Really Bad.

That said, it's a bit of a black art to know your HR well enough to tell when the lineup isn't enough time to resolve an issue. I was timing for Ump at Rose vs. Minnesota last week and he finished up an issue with less than two seconds left in the lineup. I knew from past experience that he does that sort of thing, so I held back the OTO. That same half we had a very justified OTO start fairly early in the lineup and it went for about 90 seconds. Hard to offer solid guidance on how to know these things, but it's just something you learn when you work the position.
also known as Apron, if you didn't know already.

Offline Eject You Later

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Re: Jam timing official time-outs
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2012, 04:25:18 pm »
Beware of what might have been common that has become discouraged. Jam Timers are strongly encouraged to start an OTO the moment a jam start is in jeopardy, be that at second 3, 15, 25, or 29 of the lineup time. Do not pause until the 29th second to start an OTO you knew you needed at the 3rd second, because it Looks Really Bad. 

Correct.  This is a practice (always letting 30 seconds bleed off the clock before calling the OTO) that used to be common and is being slowly deprecated.  If you need it, call it immediately.
Eject You Later - Referee
Old Capitol City Roller Girls of Coralville, IA
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Offline Megapickle

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Re: Jam timing official time-outs
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2012, 04:42:48 pm »
... Do not pause until the 29th second to start an OTO you knew you needed at the 3rd second, because it Looks Really Bad.

I wonder: To whom does it look bad? Seems like anyone sophisticated enough to be paying critical attention to the moment that an OTO is called would also 'get' the concept of rolling the 30-second lineup clock every time for the sake of fairness. I know the first time I saw it in action, I thought for a few weird seconds: "Oh no, they huddled but forgot to stop the clock!" But as soon as I saw the Time Out flash on the scoreboard right at 30 seconds, my thought became: "Ok, yes, that makes perfect sense!"

(Since then, our CRG scoreboard software has been set up with the policy to automatically take a TO when the Lineup Clock expires per 2.8.2.3, and I kinda love it. Essentially, OTO clock management is automated.)

Offline SilkenTofu

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Re: Jam timing official time-outs
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2012, 05:15:38 pm »
...it's a bit of a black art to know your HR well...

This.  Ask the HR before the bout whether they want you to call the OTO immediately, or let the 30 expire.

From what I've heard, skater feedback has been that they don't like seeing the officials standing around waiting for 30 seconds to expire before they start their huddling, or seeing the clock tick down while derby action is not in the works.  This is why we're starting to see crews prefer to call the OTO immediately upon realization that it is going to be needed--skaters want that time to, y'know, skate.  But again, find out what your HR wants for that particular bout/event--it may be something to bring up in a captains meeting.
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Offline ClockRoach

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Re: Jam timing official time-outs
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2012, 12:19:20 pm »
Track layout can also cause an issue when you're waiting for that last second to call the OTO.

If your scoreboard is behind turn 1, as ours tends to be, the Jam Timer will be looking away from the officials to watch those last five seconds, so they may not notice if the HR and other officials are distracted by some sort of discussion.

I'm all for trying to resolve things in those 30 seconds whenever possible, but I've definitely seen times where it takes longer and there's too much distraction and not enough communication for everyone to know exactly who should be calling the OTO and when.

Offline ShoNuff

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Re: Jam timing official time-outs
« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2012, 05:45:53 pm »
As Silken Tofu said, that's something you should work out pre-bout.  The jam timer and the head ref need to be confident they understand each other and how procedurally they are going to handle communicating whether or not an OTO is to be called and when to do it.

As can be seen clearly by this thread there are a lot of different ideas on what the best way to do this is but almost any of the various ideas discussed will work so long as everyone knows what to expect.

Offline SeerSin

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Re: Jam timing official time-outs
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2012, 06:06:45 pm »
Technically letting the 30 seconds run off is in line with the rules. Yes, many refs did this for a while and thought it was a great idea because they saw it as officials having less impact on the game clock(I was one of those officials). However the vast majority of skaters that have been asked stated they wanted the time to play roller derby. So now I call the official time out immediately if I know it's going to take longer than 30 seconds. If I can I still try to solve the issue in the 30 seconds available.

Offline InvaderSin

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Re: Jam timing official time-outs
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2013, 10:45:15 am »
We always wait for the HR to signal on OTO, if he doesn't signal within 20secs, the HNSO or JT will confirm whether or not an OTO is required, at times its the fire they need to resolve the issue in seconds, other times an OTO is called.

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