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Author Topic: 9.1.4.1: "No more than two pack referees shall be stationed inside the track"  (Read 13126 times)

Offline noidd

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Does this rule now deprecate the 5/2 referee assignment?

IE: 2 Jammer, 2 Pack, 1 HR inside... 2 OPR.

If the HR is following the pack and also calling penalties, they're effectively an additional pack ref.

Or, is the purpose of the rule to preclude 2 Jammer, 3 Pack, 1 HR on the inside.

Thanks,



Red
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Offline Major Wood

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Does this rule now deprecate the 5/2 referee assignment?

IE: 2 Jammer, 2 Pack, 1 HR inside... 2 OPR.

If the HR is following the pack and also calling penalties, they're effectively an additional pack ref.

Or, is the purpose of the rule to preclude 2 Jammer, 3 Pack, 1 HR on the inside.

Thanks,



Red


Your initial thought is correct. 5/2 is not legal if the dedicated head referee is performing pack ref duties. It IS legal if they are solely overseeing.
My thought on that is... what a waste of the abilities of a referee who is (in most cases) one of the most capable referees in the track.
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Offline Johnny Zebra

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My thought on that is... what a waste of the abilities of a referee who is (in most cases) one of the most capable referees in the track.

I agree. There was an argument that the head ref is not a pack ref, s/he's a head ref, and can perform any or all duties as required during a bout above and in addition to the pack refs. But that argument generally appears to have not had any traction.

So yes, from the discussions I've heard, the general understanding is that if you choose to put five refs on the inside, one of them cannot call penalties.


~j.z.
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Johnny Zebra
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Offline noidd

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Thank you both.  That was the clarity I was looking for.
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Offline Brother Grim

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I may have missed something, but how does this differ from 9.1.4.1.1 in the previous rules version?
Brother Grim

Offline Professor Murder

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I may have missed something, but how does this differ from 9.1.4.1.1 in the previous rules version?

This rule has been around for quite some time in some shape or form, correct.
Philly Roller Girls
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Offline Darkjester

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Ok, so under this. With a 2 Pack Ref, 2 Jam Ref, 1 HR inside scenario.

The Head Ref does not call penalties..But what if the Head Ref see's a penalty that the 2 pack refs (busy calling "Pack is here" and "OOP" at the front/back of the pack) miss. The Head Ref is not allowed to call it at all?



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Offline Major Wood

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[rule]9.1.4
Pack Referees: The remaining referees observe the pack. The primary responsibility for Pack Referees is to call penalties. Pack Referee assignments and specifics regarding Pack Referee positioning can be found in the WFTDA Referee and Officiating Standard Practices document[/rule]

Emphasis mine. So my thought is, no, the head ref is not allowed to call it. Perhaps they could tell the pack refs that they need to tighten up on penalties they are missing and tell them where their eyes aren't.

My question is, where does it end? What are the limits for pack referee duties? I would assume that it would include pack definition and declaring out of play.

What does that leave? Offering advice? Relaying penalties?
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Offline FNZebra

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What does that leave? Offering advice? Relaying penalties?

You forgot providing referee evals for certification.  :)

/grinning, running, ducking as Prof Murder throws things at me
You will bout as you practice.


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FN Zebra
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Offline Pat-E-Rat

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What does that leave? Offering advice? Relaying penalties?

This is one I've been pondering going into the rest of the season and next with new refs coming into our league and great amounts of support from our regional refs.  I expect bouts and scrimmages where we will be more than full on refs.  It's my goal to get my newbs as much experience as possible all the while.  My plan, currently, is to play that role in scrimmages assuming we have more than enough interest as a liason in the middle doing just that; penalty relays and half time/OTO advice.  I think it will help refs in training, outside of that purpose I don't see myself playing that role in an actual bout...
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Offline Darkjester

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Personally I'm on the fence with the idea that "Head Ref is not 'pack ref'" therefore doesn't include into the number of "Two" pack referees.

BUT..

If it were to be so and I had to be HR for a WFTDA Team/Bout, I'd simply follow the rules and not call penalties. Then if argued by a Team Captain remind them that the WFTDA skaters decided a HR could not be part of the pack refs, therefore cannot call penalties.

I'm admittedly guessing here, but I've a feeling the reason for the rule was to prevent a situation where there were inside four pack refs, 1 HR and 2 Jam Ref type scenarios, not to remove a HR from active officiating. However, that is the verbage used and approved sooo.....

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Offline Professor Murder

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/grinning, running, ducking as Prof Murder throws things at me

To be clear, critique the performance, not the setup. 

(for now.)
Philly Roller Girls
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Offline SpiderPirate

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I feel it was to force refs to put them on the outside pack and place a greater emphasis on it instead of cramming so many on the inside.  They want 3 outside pack refs as opposed to 2, so you have greater coverage on the outside where skating needs to be stronger, than on the inside where 2 can handle it much easier.
"The greater danger for most of us lies not in setting our aim too high and falling short; but in setting our aim too low, and achieving our mark."

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Offline F.O.G.

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Here is my first try at interperating the rules. I am new to this so go easy on me!

The rules say you can have a max of 7 refs. 1 HR, 2 Jam and no more than 2 Pack refs inside the track. That leaves 2 Oustside Refs to make the 7 refs by rules.

The WFTDA Standards says the HR should be positioned inside the track and MAY be a front or back pack ref or leave the duties to other refs. I interperate the MAY BE for if you had less than 7 Refs and needed another ref for a pack ref.

Section 9.1.2 states the Head Ref is the ultamate authority in the game. So the HR is a Ref, and refs call penalties.(see Below)

So this leads me to my conclusion that the HR is neither a pack or jam ref but is the HR. The HR can call any pentalty s/he sees. The HR primary duty is not to watch the pack solely or the jammers soley but to oversee the game. So you end up with 5 Refs on the inside and 2 Outside Ref all calling penatlies as Refs should when a penalty is seen.

Pack refs are not prevented from calling penalties on a jammer if seen, jammer refs are not prevented from calling penalties on a blocker if the penalty is seen.. As I see it an outside pack ref can call any penatly they see, so why can't the Head Ref call a penalty on a skater, s/he is a Ref.

Section 9.2.5.2 Referees will: Call major and minor penalties. The head Referee is a referee by definition and should call penalties by this rule.

The only stipulation by Ref position I see is the HR is the only one who can expel a skater, the Jam refs count and signal the score. But by 9.2.5.2, all refs call penalties.

And my last thought is not in the book. If the HR is not calling penalties, then you would only need your least experienced ref to be HR as they would only be timing the jam and expelling players when told so by a pack ref. They would have no need to watch the pack or jammers.

FOG
Panama City Roller Derby

Offline RollBar

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The standard procedure we've had 'down under' is 2 JR, 1 IPR, 1 IPR/HR, 3 OPR.

Generally the IPR/HR will be the rear IPR to be able to watch the pack at a better angle.  The 3 OPRs will either do a 2 lap skate-'n-wait or a half-lap skate-'n-wait depending on general skater ability with the preference being towards 2 lap.

As I can see the point of having the HR be a more of an observation/coaching role but generally, it'll be the most experienced ref as the HR and it would be a pity to not have them able to make calls.
Rollbar

Referee  - Victorian Roller Derby League
Melbourne VIC AUS
WFTDA Apprentice League

 

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