Menu

ZH Classifieds
ZH Files
ZH Staff
WFTDA 12/1/2014 Rules
WFTDA 3/1/2014 Rules

Donate

Please Support Zebra Huddle!

Recent Posts

Re: Jammer's time in penalty box by 3Beers
April 26, 2020, 09:46:33 pm

Getting officials attention by Rego_Derby
March 03, 2020, 04:05:02 am

Re: Jammer's time in penalty box by Major Wood
February 05, 2020, 05:52:31 pm

Jammer's time in penalty box by 3Beers
January 29, 2020, 03:33:20 am

Nashville Roller Derby 2020 Scrimmage-A-Thon - 7/11/2020 by Major Wood
January 27, 2020, 09:36:38 pm

Re: Rule clarification by 3Beers
January 26, 2020, 08:09:00 pm

Re: Rule clarification by Bluebeard
January 17, 2020, 05:26:46 am

Rule clarification by 3Beers
December 28, 2019, 06:04:00 pm

Re: Resources for new referees. by Destructor
November 29, 2019, 01:13:40 pm

Resources for new referees. by Destructor
November 26, 2019, 06:01:48 pm

Author Topic: Epiphany  (Read 8723 times)

Offline Darkjester

  • Has Too Much Damn Time Member
  • ********************
  • Posts: 3067
  • Stats Sheet: 39
  • "When in doubt, RTFM"
  • League Affiliation: Beach Brawl SK8R Dolls
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Epiphany
« on: February 13, 2009, 03:25:39 pm »
While sleeping this morning, darn derby making me think in my REM time.
We previously discussed "Lead Jammer" vs. "Initial Pass"
I realized its entirely possible for someone to be declared Lead Jammer, and not complete their initial pass.

Follow me on this one..

Jammer A Makes it through the pack, legally and in bounds, her hips break the pack, she is signalled/Designated/whistled, "Lead Jammer" 

However, she does not make it to her 20' mark outside the pack to complete her Initial Pass. Either the pack swallows her back up and she then performs a Major Foul, I.E. Cutting the last blocker, tripping, Elbowing, etc., For whatever reason she gets the 1 Min in the Sin Bin signal. Since she didn't make it out past the pack by 20' she's still in her initial pass mode for scoring purposes once she returns from the penalty box.

Now.. Since she's been whistled and Signalled off the track, she cannot call of the jam. So she has to sit out 1 minute in the sin bin, while Jammer 2 Racks up points, NOTT points/Ghost points for the jammer.


The scenarios that flow through my brain while I'm trying to sleep.

Madness Tolls
69¢
Beach Brawl Sk8R Dolls
Fort Walton Beach FL

Offline L8R SK8R

  • Restricted User
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 521
  • Stats Sheet: -13
Re: Epiphany
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2009, 03:35:08 pm »
And, sucks to be her, she just lost her lead jammer status too.

Offline DayGlo Divine

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 926
  • Stats Sheet: 39
  • Fighter of the Night Man, Champion of the Sun
Re: Epiphany
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2009, 04:30:40 pm »
While sleeping this morning, darn derby making me think in my REM time.
We previously discussed "Lead Jammer" vs. "Initial Pass"
I realized its entirely possible for someone to be declared Lead Jammer, and not complete their initial pass.

Follow me on this one..

Jammer A Makes it through the pack, legally and in bounds, her hips break the pack, she is signalled/Designated/whistled, "Lead Jammer" 

However, she does not make it to her 20' mark outside the pack to complete her Initial Pass. Either the pack swallows her back up and she then performs a Major Foul, I.E. Cutting the last blocker, tripping, Elbowing, etc., For whatever reason she gets the 1 Min in the Sin Bin signal. Since she didn't make it out past the pack by 20' she's still in her initial pass mode for scoring purposes once she returns from the penalty box.

Now.. Since she's been whistled and Signalled off the track, she cannot call of the jam. So she has to sit out 1 minute in the sin bin, while Jammer 2 Racks up points, NOTT points/Ghost points for the jammer.


The scenarios that flow through my brain while I'm trying to sleep.

Gaining LJ status without completing an initial pass is not an uncommon scenario. Here are some examples:

  • Jammer A gets through the pack on her initial pass, but is ineligible for LJ because she went out of bounds before reaching the Engagement Zone or did not pass all the blockers legally and in bounds. Jammer B struggles to get past Team A's blockers, but at some point or another, she manages to get through the pack and meet the criteria for LJ. In the meantime, Jammer A is in a position to score points or already has. Immediately upon becoming LJ, Jammer B cuts her losses and calls off the jam.
  • Jammer A gets through the pack on her initial pass, but is ineligible for LJ for one of the above reasons. Jammer B starts the jam in the box, having been sent there in the previous jam. By the time she is released, Jammer A has already completed a scoring pass. Jammer B gets through the pack with relative ease, gets LJ (see 3.4.5), and calls off the jam immediately.
WFTDA Certified Referee (Level 2)
Charm City Roller Girls
Opinions expressed here are mine. Not WFTDA's, not Charm City's, and not those of Zebra Huddle as a whole.

Offline Major Wood

  • Administrator
  • Has Too Much Damn Time Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2665
  • Stats Sheet: 77
  • League Affiliation: Nashville Rollergirls
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 5
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Epiphany
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2009, 05:25:34 pm »
Yes, I have seen jammers get lead but not clear the engagement zone many times.
It is a good point though, that if she went to the box, she is still in her initial pass. I hadn't thought about it before, but have never had it come up. Grand slam to you when I get back to a computer.
Your friendly Zebra Huddle admin.

Nashville Roller Derby Head Ref
WFTDA Level 5 Certified Referee

I speak only of my opinions and interpretations.

Offline bronco

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 372
  • Stats Sheet: 9
  • rules and stripes forever!
Re: Epiphany
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2009, 07:34:46 pm »
I think you confused initial pass with scoring pass.  The initial pass is complete once the jammer legally passes every opposing blocker.  Her scoring pass is complete with she clears the pack by 20 feet.  Here is what the rules say:

Quote
3.4.2 In order to gain Lead Jammer status on her initial pass through the pack, a Jammer
must pass all in-play Blockers in-bounds, legally, without committing fouls against them.

Quote
3.4.2.3 Once the Jammer has cleared the pack by 20 feet, she is no longer eligible to repass. If she has not passed all of her opponents legally and in-bounds, she will be declared NOT Lead Jammer at this point.

Quote
7.3.1.2 Once the Jammer has cleared the foremost pack skater by 20 feet, her scoring pass is complete. (see Section 3.4.1 and 3.4.2 for Lead Jammer details and Section 4 for pack definition).

She was declared Lead Jammer, so she does not need to re-pass anyone, and 3.4.2.3 does not appy.

And, due to the major penalty, she is also no longer lead jammer.  But what happens when she comes out of the penalty box and re-enters the track from the rear of the pack?
« Last Edit: February 13, 2009, 08:04:43 pm by bronco »
... Ref. Bronco

Offline Major Wood

  • Administrator
  • Has Too Much Damn Time Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2665
  • Stats Sheet: 77
  • League Affiliation: Nashville Rollergirls
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 5
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Epiphany
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2009, 08:04:54 pm »
3.4.2.3 is stating that if she clears the engagement zone, her pass is over and cannot repass to get lead jammer.
The pass does not end until she clears the engagement zone, though she can be declared lead jammer before she clears the engagement zone.
Your friendly Zebra Huddle admin.

Nashville Roller Derby Head Ref
WFTDA Level 5 Certified Referee

I speak only of my opinions and interpretations.

Offline L8R SK8R

  • Restricted User
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 521
  • Stats Sheet: -13
Re: Epiphany
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2009, 08:18:25 pm »
A pass begins with the Jammer behind the pack and ends when the Jammer has cleared the pack by twenty feet. To begin the next pass, the Jammer must fully lap the pack and catch up to the back of the pack. (See Scoring Pass and Initial Pass.)

Scoring Pass - Any pass a Jammer makes through the pack after the completed initial pass. Points may only be earned on scoring passes. A Grand Slam is independent of this definition. (See Grand Slam, Pass and Initial Pass.)

Better?

Offline bronco

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 372
  • Stats Sheet: 9
  • rules and stripes forever!
Re: Epiphany
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2009, 09:48:42 pm »
3.4.2.3 is stating that if she clears the engagement zone, her pass is over and cannot repass to get lead jammer.
The pass does not end until she clears the engagement zone, though she can be declared lead jammer before she clears the engagement zone.

In the scenario, she already is lead jammer, so 3.4.2.3 does not apply, as there is nobody left to repass.  In order to become lead jammer, she must have passed every opposing blocker in a legal manner.  One she has done that, her initial pass has ended.

If A then B does not imply if B then A.
... Ref. Bronco

Offline L8R SK8R

  • Restricted User
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 521
  • Stats Sheet: -13
Re: Epiphany
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2009, 10:09:35 pm »
In the scenario, she already is lead jammer, so 3.4.2.3 does not apply, as there is nobody left to repass.  In order to become lead jammer, she must have passed every opposing blocker in a legal manner.  One she has done that, her initial pass has ended.

If A then B does not imply if B then A.

Please see my last post.

Offline bronco

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 372
  • Stats Sheet: 9
  • rules and stripes forever!
Re: Epiphany
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2009, 01:47:07 am »
Yep, I missed the rule definition in the glossary. My fault, I keep expecting rules to be defined in the rules and terms to be defined in the glossary.  Now that I have wftdarules.doc on my phone...

Thanks l8r!

And to the person that tossed me a major, please follow the board rules and send a message along.
... Ref. Bronco

Offline Major Wood

  • Administrator
  • Has Too Much Damn Time Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2665
  • Stats Sheet: 77
  • League Affiliation: Nashville Rollergirls
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 5
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Epiphany
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2009, 04:01:42 am »
And to the person that tossed me a major, please follow the board rules and send a message along.


There are no board rules saying that someone needs to do that. It would just be a courtesy.
Your friendly Zebra Huddle admin.

Nashville Roller Derby Head Ref
WFTDA Level 5 Certified Referee

I speak only of my opinions and interpretations.

Offline Darkjester

  • Has Too Much Damn Time Member
  • ********************
  • Posts: 3067
  • Stats Sheet: 39
  • "When in doubt, RTFM"
  • League Affiliation: Beach Brawl SK8R Dolls
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Epiphany
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2009, 05:49:18 pm »
Not it!

I was at Sunshine Skate all weekend.. Man that was a blast!!!! Thanks to all the FL Refs and those who traveled from out of State to play with us.
Madness Tolls
69¢
Beach Brawl Sk8R Dolls
Fort Walton Beach FL

Offline WeirdAlSpankabitch

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 30
  • Stats Sheet: 5
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Epiphany
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2009, 06:36:29 pm »
So to clarify, a jammer does not need to clear the pack by 20 feet to complete her initial pass, only her scoring pass. 
The ghost of referees past, present and future

Offline Darkjester

  • Has Too Much Damn Time Member
  • ********************
  • Posts: 3067
  • Stats Sheet: 39
  • "When in doubt, RTFM"
  • League Affiliation: Beach Brawl SK8R Dolls
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Epiphany
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2009, 06:49:12 pm »
No, her Pass (Initial or scoring) is completed when she makes it 20' out of the pack.

Lead Jammer status is awarded immediately upon a skater breaking the pack.

 However, if she has broken the pack but did not get awarded due to a minor foul, prior to completing her pass ( 20') she may slow back into the pack and repass the skater(s) she fouled originally, legally.

Madness Tolls
69¢
Beach Brawl Sk8R Dolls
Fort Walton Beach FL

Offline noidd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 972
  • Stats Sheet: 28
  • Start with 100% accuracy and get better over time.
Re: Epiphany
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2009, 07:16:23 pm »
So to clarify, a jammer does not need to clear the pack by 20 feet to complete her initial pass, only her scoring pass. 

That is not my understanding.  To re-quote L8r's post which quotes the glossary:

Pass - To pass is to move in front of an opposing skater by positioning your hips in front of hers.
A pass begins with the Jammer behind the pack and ends when the Jammer has cleared
the pack by twenty feet. To begin the next pass, the Jammer must fully lap the pack and
catch up to the back of the pack. (See Scoring Pass and Initial Pass.)


Initial Pass - The first pass a Jammer makes through the pack. No score is awarded on this pass; it is
only used to establish the Lead Jammer. (See Pass and Scoring Pass.)


Scoring Pass - Any pass a Jammer makes through the pack after the completed initial pass. Points may
only be earned on scoring passes. A Grand Slam is independent of this definition. (See
Grand Slam, Pass and Initial Pass.)


An Initial Pass is defined as a Pass.  It therefore inherits the properties of a pass which includes completion at 20ft.
--
Referees are not here to legislate, dictate, pontificate or participate.  We are there only to facilitate.

 

Featured Product

 

Zebra Huddle Head Referee Bout Booklet

 

Featured Classifieds


ZH Files

How to Score a Point in Roller Derby
Rating: *****
Downloads: 4460
Views: 7504
Filesize: 327.61KB
Date: January 17, 2017, 04:21:03 am
Comments (0)
By: AdamSmasher
June 2013 Ruleset situational questions
Rating: *****
Downloads: 2977
Views: 6086
Filesize: 29.71KB
Date: February 07, 2014, 04:57:32 pm
Comments (2)
By: Crash Test Ref
Rules Q&A and Publications for 6/15/13 Document
Rating: (None)
Downloads: 3179
Views: 7009
Filesize: 26.27KB
Date: August 02, 2013, 04:10:40 pm
Comments (0)
By: Shaun Ketterman
Rules Q&A and Publications for 1/1/13 Document (4/24/13 Updates)
Rating: *****
Downloads: 3989
Views: 9035
Filesize: 28.07KB
Date: April 25, 2013, 05:45:34 pm
Comments (0)
By: Shaun Ketterman

Powered by EzPortal