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Author Topic: counting down  (Read 11004 times)

Offline mick hawkins

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counting down
« on: July 07, 2010, 12:47:02 am »
« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 01:04:36 am by mick hawkins »
Sun State Roller Girls (WFTDA Apprentice League)
Brisbane, Australia

Offline Stegoscorus

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Re: counting down
« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2010, 01:09:14 am »
Mostly I've seen the Jam Timer put their hand up with 5 seconds left before the whistle.  I would discourage counting down with the fingers; it's too easy to be off by a second and cause false starts if the skaters are watching the fingers rather than listening for the whistle (which is their own fault, of course, but why not just avoid it?).

As far as what they do when the blow either the pack or the Jammer whistles, that's all personal style.  Some people get really into it, others just blow the whistle.  In general I'd say discourage officials from calling TOO much attention to themselves, but a bit of Jam Timer flare is pretty normative, can be amusing to the skaters and audience.  ;)
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Offline mick hawkins

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Re: counting down
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2010, 01:16:00 am »
thanks stego  :)

I would discourage counting down with the fingers; it's too easy to be off by a second and cause false starts if the skaters are watching the fingers rather than listening for the whistle (which is their own fault, of course, but why not just avoid it?).

yeah, there's a few leagues here who do this - and the skaters use the count down to try and get a jump on the opposition (literally) - with mixed success

im not sure im a fan of the finger countdown, but a few of our skaters have seen it recently and like it

hence me asking

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Offline Dave Brawlings

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Re: counting down
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2010, 02:10:48 am »
I am a fan of "arm up with the first whistle", and "arm down with the second whistle." Particularly in a loud, close venue, I think a visual cue as well as the whistle is a good idea.

Offline dodge sportsman

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Re: counting down
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2010, 04:52:46 am »
hi.

I've been lurking for some time, but after having this same conversation at training last night, I thought I'd weigh in with my very first post...

I think we do it pretty similar to you guys, mick...

In past bouts we have just had our jam timer yell "ten seconds" (that would be for ten seconds left obviously) and put his hand up, then drop the hand along with the regulation whistle for the start of the jam, followed by a plain two whistles for the jammer start.

Some of our girls like the  finger count after having seen it in Adelaide at the great southern slam and so they've requested we follow suit. Personally i'm against it as i think it overcomplicates something that i see as fairly simple.

I agree with stegoscorus.The five finger count seems to me to encourage the skaters to get the jump on the pack by anticipating the whistle based on the position of the fingers, which, unless the jam timer can guarantee finger - stopwatch synchronisation every time, is likely to lead to heaps of false starts and possible confusion from the skaters as to what is the actual start of the jam (even though they should know it's the whistle).

I see it as analogous to the "take your mark - set - gun" start in track athletics. Reaction time is still a factor, but there's less room for confusion. If the skaters are struggling to hear the whistles for the start of a jam, I think that's something that needs to be addressed seperately (maybe get the music turned down), because if they're not hearing the start whistles,
 it's likely they're not hearing penalty or jam-end whistles as well.

If there was a need for visual signal to the jammers, then perhaps the above could be modified to:
yell "ten seconds" and raise arm.
blow the jam start whistle
then blow the jammer start whistle while simultaneously lowering arm.

we'd also be pretty keen to hear if there was some radically different, and radically awesome method employed across the pond that we're unaware of.

 anyway that's my two cents and cherry popped
Sydney Roller Derby League
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Offline teapotahedron

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Re: counting down
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2010, 06:05:59 pm »
I've also seen the jam timer do a countdown at the end of the 2 minute jam time limit. Seems like a good idea to let the referees know that a call-off is imminent, which is especially important for jam refs to accurately count points.

Offline JoeXCore

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Re: counting down
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2010, 06:08:24 pm »
I've also seen the jam timer do a countdown at the end of the 2 minute jam time limit. Seems like a good idea to let the referees know that a call-off is imminent, which is especially important for jam refs to accurately count points.

Scoring should happen until the 4th whistle of the jam ending signal. They have (barely more than an instant I know) 3 blasts to prepare.
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Offline Gravity Kills

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Re: counting down
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2010, 07:11:45 pm »
I liked the way they were doing it at ECE.  Chop down for the first whistle, point to the jammers at the second.  It was simple and clear.
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Offline Neil's On Wheels

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Re: counting down
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2010, 04:13:39 pm »
I've seen the "hand up at :25/hand down at whistle" and the "hand-up-countdown-start at :25/hand down at the whistle".  I don't care for the countdown, feels too much like "coaching".  Officials aren't supposed to tell a team "You only have x seconds to get it together/on the track/extra players off/etc." and I feel like letting them know they have 5(ish) seconds left borders on, if not crosses, that line.  Technically, the hand up at :25 does a very similar thing, but I'm not opposed to it because venues are often loud, even when the music isn't.  A visual cue that it's time to start skating is not a bad thing.  (That's part of why we use hand-signals when issuing penalties.) I would think the most logical (once people got used to it, anyway) way to signal and not coach would be hand up at the start whistle, hand down on the Jammer whistle.

Offline Cliquework

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Re: counting down
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2010, 07:47:34 pm »
I do not feel it is coaching to "notify at five by raising the hand" for this reason:

[rule]2.8.2.4The official period clock must be highly visible to referees, teams and fans.[/rule]

As such, it is information readily available to all, nor are we giving an advantage to only one team. All it does is allow everyone to be in sync, particularly between Jam Timer and Scoreboard Op, depending on your configuration.

Though I will say that, having done plenty of jam timing, "counting with the fingers" can possibly lead to error for the reasons stated already. So not a "coaching" thing, but an error thing.



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Offline JoeXCore

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Re: counting down
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2010, 08:01:55 pm »
I do not feel it is coaching to "notify at five by raising the hand" for this reason:

[rule]2.8.2.4The official period clock must be highly visible to referees, teams and fans.[/rule]

As such, it is information readily available to all, nor are we giving an advantage to only one team. All it does is allow everyone to be in sync, particularly between Jam Timer and Scoreboard Op, depending on your configuration.

Though I will say that, having done plenty of jam timing, "counting with the fingers" can possibly lead to error for the reasons stated already. So not a "coaching" thing, but an error thing.





While that is a good point... time between jams is NOT required to be visible, and some score boards don't show that.

(I just realized this implies I think counting down is a good idea, I don't)
« Last Edit: August 01, 2010, 08:43:57 pm by JoeXCore »
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Offline Judge Knot

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Re: counting down
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2010, 08:03:36 pm »
I do not feel it is coaching to "notify at five by raising the hand" for this reason:

[rule]2.8.2.4The official period clock must be highly visible to referees, teams and fans.[/rule]

As such, it is information readily available to all, nor are we giving an advantage to only one team. All it does is allow everyone to be in sync, particularly between Jam Timer and Scoreboard Op, depending on your configuration.

Though I will say that, having done plenty of jam timing, "counting with the fingers" can possibly lead to error for the reasons stated already. So not a "coaching" thing, but an error thing.





It's a coaching thing if it's not consistent. The skaters know to look to the official clock. If you are giving optional information that varies from crew to crew, it starts to cross the line.
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Offline Cliquework

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Re: counting down
« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2010, 08:42:31 pm »
It's a coaching thing if it's not consistent. The skaters know to look to the official clock. If you are giving optional information that varies from crew to crew, it starts to cross the line.

Is this to say it should not be practiced? I've had nothing but good results and feedback on it and many crews Iv'e worked with use it or have adopted it, but it's certainly not a set standard.
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Offline Judge Knot

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Re: counting down
« Reply #13 on: August 01, 2010, 11:24:23 pm »
It's a coaching thing if it's not consistent. The skaters know to look to the official clock. If you are giving optional information that varies from crew to crew, it starts to cross the line.

Is this to say it should not be practiced? I've had nothing but good results and feedback on it and many crews Iv'e worked with use it or have adopted it, but it's certainly not a set standard.

That's a question you'll have to answer for yourself.

If 99% of people don't do it, and it's not done in tourneys, do you want to do it in sanctioned play?

That said, do what you want at home.
-Richie Frangiosa (Judge Knot)

Offline JoeXCore

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Re: counting down
« Reply #14 on: August 01, 2010, 11:29:57 pm »
Could someone please post a detailed description of what is done at WFTDA tourneys.

I know there are motions that go along with the whistles when The Prosecutor does it.
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