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Author Topic: counting down  (Read 10666 times)

Offline Cliquework

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Re: counting down
« Reply #15 on: August 02, 2010, 12:01:08 am »
While that is a good point... time between jams is NOT required to be visible, and some score boards don't show that.

(I just realized this implies I think counting down is a good idea, I don't)

Counter: But it is visible on all scoreboards, as the period clock keeps moving, though it may require a bit of math.

It seems odd that there is a time requirement imposed on skaters, yet we argue that this shouldn't be visible or known. Even penalized skaters can request how much time they have left.

Just pointing out the counter arguement. Personally, I can live either way.
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Offline Judge Knot

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Re: counting down
« Reply #16 on: August 02, 2010, 03:54:04 am »
While that is a good point... time between jams is NOT required to be visible, and some score boards don't show that.

(I just realized this implies I think counting down is a good idea, I don't)

Counter: But it is visible on all scoreboards, as the period clock keeps moving, though it may require a bit of math.

It seems odd that there is a time requirement imposed on skaters, yet we argue that this shouldn't be visible or known. Even penalized skaters can request how much time they have left.

Just pointing out the counter arguement. Personally, I can live either way.

My response was directed toward the comment regarding counting down the time in the jam. Just so we're on the same page here.
-Richie Frangiosa (Judge Knot)

Offline Neil's On Wheels

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Re: counting down
« Reply #17 on: August 02, 2010, 04:29:07 am »
All good points as to why/how it's not coaching.  I've been swayed on that.

But I stand by not counting down for all the other reasons mentioned.  In fact, I was reffing a bout this evening and the jam timer would count down verbally, but he did it wrong every time.  "5-4-3-2-[whistle]"  Everyone seemed to get it, but (and probably because of this very thread), I found it a bit annoying and wished he would stop the counting part more because he was doing it incorrectly than for any other reason.

I would be interested in hearing how it's done at WFTDA tournaments, too.

Offline JoeXCore

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Re: counting down
« Reply #18 on: August 02, 2010, 04:34:42 am »
While that is a good point... time between jams is NOT required to be visible, and some score boards don't show that.

(I just realized this implies I think counting down is a good idea, I don't)

Counter: But it is visible on all scoreboards, as the period clock keeps moving, though it may require a bit of math.

It seems odd that there is a time requirement imposed on skaters, yet we argue that this shouldn't be visible or known. Even penalized skaters can request how much time they have left.

Just pointing out the counter arguement. Personally, I can live either way.

My response was directed toward the comment regarding counting down the time in the jam. Just so we're on the same page here.

Ah, I'm pretty sure that's not what any of the rest of us were talking about. Yeah, I don't know of any league that does that.
Black n Bluegrass Roller Girls - head referee
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Offline Cliquework

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Re: counting down
« Reply #19 on: August 02, 2010, 04:53:17 am »
Yes. Same here. I just meant holding the hand up pre-jam, 5 seconds before the Jam Whistle to begin the jam. The chop on Jam Start.

I don't know of the other here either, nor any verbal counting.

Looking back I suppose there were a few things going on at once.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2010, 06:50:40 pm by Cliquework »
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Offline reflmao

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Re: counting down
« Reply #20 on: August 02, 2010, 06:21:30 pm »
Could someone please post a detailed description of what is done at WFTDA tourneys.

I was a jam timer at ECE so that's close.

Between jams I was asked to
  • raise my hand, no timing requested but I used 5 seconds
  • Start the pack by blowing the whistle and choping down with the whole arm
  • Keep my arm straight
  • Start the jammers by blowing 2 and snapping sideways to point at the jammers

I was asked not to judge the pack.  I started the jammers when the last skater crossed the line, when the refs called the pack in front of the line, or when the refs called no pack.

The motions are easy enough but the sideways snap did lead me the smacking the back IPR in the chest a couple of times before we worked that out. 
RCRD, Rochester, NY

Offline Sven WillIBeFamous

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Re: counting down
« Reply #21 on: August 11, 2010, 06:31:24 pm »
Personally I think this is something which should be more of a signal to the refs and so should be discussed in the pre-bout ref/NSO meeting.  It should be down to the preference of the Head Ref for the bout and everyone will be on the same page for the bout.

Whenever I've been involved in a bout it's always been done like that. I've never seen the counting down done and I don't think I like the idea of it to be honest as players will start watching the jam timer too much and there's too much of a temptation to jump the gun.

Counting down to signal the end of a jam is a no-no in my book as I think it could lead to confusion for players and refs alike.  The 4 whistle blasts (which will probably take a couple of seconds anyway) should be enough for refs and officials to realise that the jam is ending/has ended.
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Offline PaPaROTC

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Re: counting down
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2010, 03:55:08 am »
PaPaROTC
Tucson Roller Derby

Offline The Gorram Reaver

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Re: counting down
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2010, 04:40:32 am »
Skaters & coaches know how to watch a clock.  If they are intent on starting a jam with a no-pack situation, they will be taking that knee at some point whether there is any sort of indication from the Jam Timer on how soon the jam will be starting.  As a referee, and particularly as a Head Referee, I often have the need to know right frikkin NOW if the jam is about to start.  Being able to look at the Jam Timer and instantly get that information can make the difference between allowing game play to flow in an appropriate manner instead of 1) calling an unnecessary Officials' Time Out when I didn't need to, or 2) whistling a jam dead immediately after it starts to resolve an issue you didn't know you didn't have time to take care of.
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Offline mick hawkins

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Re: counting down
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2010, 04:51:05 am »

My understanding of why...
These days rules specify clocks must be visible.
That wasn't always the case.
The hand signal was used as a visual signal to reinforce the whistle - for the refs, announcers, audience and skaters.
... and when the visible clocks were used, the hand signal stayed.

I kind of think of it as similar to the puff of smoke that starting guns give   :)

It doesn;t give any cue that a visible clock doesn't already give.
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Offline noidd

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Re: counting down
« Reply #25 on: November 11, 2010, 12:06:20 pm »

My thoughts?

Why are you looking for ways to change how the bout is run in order to stop skaters doing things which are legal per the rules but you don't like?

Officiate the game as the rules are written.  If the skaters don't want that specific aspect of gameplay they'll change the rules.  As an official it's not your game to change.
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Referees are not here to legislate, dictate, pontificate or participate.  We are there only to facilitate.

Offline Bishop

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Re: counting down
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2010, 03:28:59 pm »
My question is that if is not stated in the rules that we have to “Raise the hand a 25 seconds” why do we? 

There are a fair number of best practices out there that aren't specified in the rules proper.  Some of these best practices are spelled out in the WFTDA Referee Standardized Practices document.  On the other hand, many are not.  For example, where is it specified that jammer referees have to show jammers how many minors they have? 

It takes a lot of effort to stay on top of the current common or best officiating practices in WFTDA roller debry.  While you don't want to be cavalier with your own officitating practices, you do want to be open to suggestions reliable sources of information when they inform you of an officiating practice.  In the case of counting down, there's enough of a precedent out there that you can adopt that practice.  That said, you still have to be open to feedback from reliable sources close to the tribal knowledge in regards to how those officiating practices evolve.
Recommended Resources:WFTDA Rules Central, WFTDA officiating & Successful Sports Officiating
Propose rule changes at timeout.wftda.com.

Offline Darkjester

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Re: counting down
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2010, 05:20:12 pm »
I can see where Woody is coming from, if not necessarily how he worded it.

The taking of a knee before the jam is a legal tactic, however, if they are using an Official signaling "5 seconds" by raising their arm as the cue, then the referees ARE unduly having an effect on the game.

Like its been said, Coaches/players can view the countdown clock, so other than for trying to wrangle the officials/referees the hand in the air is extraneous.

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