pivot panty issues (NOT STRIPE RELATED!!)

[Darkjester]

We first have to ask. Is it an illegal action to pass the pivot cover?

Yes.

3.5 PASSING THE STAR
The position of Pivot cannot be transferred by passing the Pivot helmet cover. Violations of these outlined procedures merit Illegal Procedure penalties, as described in Section 6.13 Illegal Procedures, to be assessed against the skater responsible for the violation

Given that we know its a penalty from the very first sentence, and that Illegal Procedure covers Uniform as well we can look to the below since there isn't 'specific' wording regarding a Pivot passing the pivot cover.

Illegal actions not specified below must be penalized using these specifics as guiding examples.

Hence my jump to a Major Illegal Procedure, once the pivot cover is put on the 2nd Pivots head. Until that time she's not wearing an illegal uniform.

[FNZebra]

ahem. (and I'm not casting aspersions here. I often happily skip past the front sections to get to the penalty juiciness when re-re-re-reading the rules).

Code:

3.1.2 Blocker identification: Non-Pivot Blockers do not wear helmet covers.

Pretty plain and clear. And therefore,

Code:

6.13.18 Improper uniform, jewelry, or skates.  

is likely the correct enforcement.

[The Gorram Reaver]

We first have to ask. Is it an illegal action to pass the pivot cover?

Yes.

3.5 PASSING THE STAR
The position of Pivot cannot be transferred by passing the Pivot helmet cover. Violations of these outlined procedures merit Illegal Procedure
penalties, as described in Section 6.13 Illegal Procedures, to be assessed against the skater responsible for the violation

So if a Pivot removes a belt & passes it to a Blocker who then puts it on, we should give the Pivot a major IP for an Illegal Star Pass because she wasn't passing the Jammer cover?

The problem with saying

Code:

Violations of these outlined procedures merit Illegal Procedure penalties, as described in Section 6.13 Illegal Procedures, to be
assessed against the skater responsible for the violation.

means that every transfer of equipment/items that is not a legal Star Pass is inherently an Illegal Star Pass means that every transfer of equipment/items that is not a legal Star Pass is inherently an Illegal Star Pass.  I think that's taking too much from a very specific, narrowly described set of rules.  In fact, if you really want to press it, you could penalize just about anything, including any typically legal action, as an Illegal Star Pass.  After all, it's not specifically described as being a legal Star Pass, so if a Blocker gives her Jammer a whip, clearly she has just executed an Illegal Star pass.

Also, the sentence you (DJ) point to as being the definitive proof of why this broad interpretation should be used is not in fact the first sentence of the rule.  It's way at the end; in fact the next to the last sentence of the paragraph.  It is after the statement that  the Pivot cannot become Lead Jammer.  I don't believe it is meant to infer that any subsequent information about what may be done with a Jammer cover is meant to also apply to Pivot covers, only that Pivot status cannot be transferred by passing the Pivot cover to another player.

Code:

3.5 PASSING THE STAR
A Jammer may transfer her position to her team''s Pivot, allowing said Pivot to become the pointscoring skater for her team for the remainder
of the jam. This is commonly referred to as "Passing the Star." Only the position of Jammer, and not the status of Lead Jammer, may be
transferred to a Pivot Blocker. If the Jammer that "passes the star" to her Pivot was Lead Jammer, that status is automatically forfeited and there
is no Lead Jammer for the remainder of the jam. It is illegal to transfer the star outside of the Engagement Zone. A Pivot cannot be Lead Jammer.
The position of Pivot cannot be transferred by passing the Pivot helmet cover. Violations of these outlined procedures merit Illegal Procedure penalties,
as described in Section 6.13 Illegal Procedures, to be assessed against the skater responsible for the violation.

[Darkjester]

ahem. (and I'm not casting aspersions here. I often happily skip past the front sections to get to the penalty juiciness when re-re-re-reading the rules).

Code:

3.1.2 Blocker identification: Non-Pivot Blockers do not wear helmet covers.

Pretty plain and clear. And therefore,

Code:

6.13.18 Improper uniform, jewelry, or skates.  

Occam's Razor, I hadn't even considered that.

The simplest solution is often the best solution to an answer.



is likely the correct enforcement.

I'm not sure if I understand the following :

So if a Pivot removes a belt & passes it to a Blocker who then puts it on, we should give the Pivot a major IP for an Illegal Star Pass because she wasn't passing the Jammer cover?

We're not talking about removing belts or changing belts, which are not considered part of a Uniform. We're discussing changing Helmet Covers which are explicitly covered in the rules as part of the uniform for a position (Pivot, Jammer) The Jammer has rules regarding legal transfer of the Jammer Cover; the pivot however it clearly states "The position cannot be transferred, Via:

3.5 PASSING THE STAR
The position of Pivot cannot be transferred by passing the Pivot helmet cover. Violations of these outlined procedures merit Illegal Procedure penalties, as described in Section 6.13 Illegal Procedures, to be assessed against the skater responsible for the violation

As for the first sentence earlier I was referring to the first sentence of the section I quoted, not the first sentence of the entire section. I could cut n paste the entire section however it would only clutter up the discussion since we are talking specifically about Pivots.

So we disagree as to whether the rules are in place to allow for punishment, I can agree with that, however; when we consider certain other factors:

1. Transfer of Pivot position is not permissible in jam.
2.There can only be 1 pivot per team per Jam.
3.The rules allow for penalties due to illegal actions that aren't specifically outlined in the rules by following the closest guideline to a rule.
4. Transfer of Pivot status CAN have an impact on play.

Its clear to me at least, that the transfer of a pivot cover would merit Illegal Procedure Major-Improper Uniform.

[SeerSin]

No one is suggesting belt passing as a penalty. We know the pivot cover cannot be passed, the only debate is what to do about it. Waiting for clarification would be prudent at this point.

And while I can see this happening at a scrimmage, where positions are shuffled more, it's highly unlikely to happen during gameplay.

[Bishop]

Institutional memory time!

Pivot removes and drops helmet cover during jam

I think you will find the responses in that thread very interesting.  

[FNZebra]

And while I can see this happening at a scrimmage, where positions are shuffled more, it's highly unlikely to happen during gameplay.

I've seen a Pivot pass her panty during a WFTDA sanctioned bout.

When we kill off minors, can we ditch the panty passing stuff, too, Please?

[mick hawkins]

ahem. (and I'm not casting aspersions here. I often happily skip past the front sections to get to the penalty juiciness when re-re-re-reading the rules).

Code:

3.1.2 Blocker identification: Non-Pivot Blockers do not wear helmet covers.

Pretty plain and clear. And therefore,

Code:

6.13.18 Improper uniform, jewelry, or skates.   

is likely the correct enforcement.

sure...well... sort of

in this scenario the reason a non-pivot blocker is wearing a cover is because they attempted to transfer pivot status

the position can't be transferred under...

Code:

3.5 PASSING THE STAR
The position of Pivot cannot be transferred by passing the Pivot helmet over.

so while a blocker skating around with a helmet cover on isn't allowed, transferring the pivot cover also isn't allowed

like, what was the illegal action here?

again, this isnt covered in the rules
such a scenario is unlikely and we're probably just going to go around in circles discussing it

[Major Wood]

Institutional memory time!

Pivot removes and drops helmet cover during jam

I think you will find the responses in that thread very interesting.  

Christ, why did you have to bring that thread up?

[Bishop]

Christ, why did you have to bring that thread up?

To illustrate the superfluous nature of stripe pass discussions?

The stripe pass is what brought it to mind.  I have seen successful stripe passes - if a stripe pass can ever really be considered "successful".

Actually, I did think some of the responses were helpful.  You have to dig for them a bit.  There's also j.z.'s "unofficial" ruling in there.

... And hey, doesn't it illustrate how far we've all come from those days?


 

[mick hawkins]

Institutional memory time!

Pivot removes and drops helmet cover during jam

I think you will find the responses in that thread very interesting.  

oh lordy!

not sure if "interesting" is the right word  

i guess it is interesting that in both that discussion and this one.... the phrase "making up rules" was used  

good stuff by rev riot and jz in that discussion though

... And hey, doesn't it illustrate how far we've all come from those days?

oh yeah... lots of learning, and not just about the rules
(for example, it's not a good idea to post at 1am while irritated)

[The Gorram Reaver]

I'm not sure if I understand the following :

So if a Pivot removes a belt & passes it to a Blocker who then puts it on, we should give the Pivot a major IP for an Illegal Star Pass because she wasn't passing the Jammer cover?

It's a hyperbolic extension of the argument to illustrate my point.  Where do you draw the line as to what "is not covered in the outlined procedures"?  The procedures described are very narrow is scope.  Saying that something is clearly a violation of those procedures simply because it is not described there means just about everything that happens on the track is a violation of those procedures.  If you're willing to accept limits, where are they?  If you're not willing to accept limits, you  better get ready to hand out Illegal Procedure penalties left & right for violations of the star pass procedures, because there is an awful lot of game play that is not specifically described in the section on Star Passes.

This is where I end my argument/discussion on my opinion regarding passing the helmet cover.  Nobody who doesn't already understand the argument I'm trying to make isn't likely to get it by my continued attempts to describe my reasoning.  If you don't agree with my argument, that's fine; we'll just have to agree to disagree and hopefully the Rules Committee will grace us with some clarificationy goodness.

[The Gorram Reaver]

One more question....

We're not talking about removing belts or changing belts, which are not considered part of a Uniform.

How do you figure belts are not a part of a Uniform?  If a skater is wearing a belt do you not evaluate it to ensure it isn't a safety risk?  If a team shows up all wearing matching belts, do you tell them to take the belts off because belts are not part of a uniform? 

[Bishop]

One more question....

We're not talking about removing belts or changing belts, which are not considered part of a Uniform.

How do you figure belts are not a part of a Uniform?  If a skater is wearing a belt do you not evaluate it to ensure it isn't a safety risk?  If a team shows up all wearing matching belts, do you tell them to take the belts off because belts are not part of a uniform? 

I think DJ means that belts aren't part of the uniform required for a specific position.  I'm sure he captialized Uniform to in order to make that distinction.  And really this is what the question comes down to - is the striped helmet cover a required part of the Uniform for the Pivot?  Must it be on the Pivot's helmet "with stripe visible"?  (2.4.4.2 notwithstanding)

BTW - the forum should be aware that the "star-and-stripe" swap is not an uncommon misconception.  Try slipping this question in on a rules test:

True or False: The Pivot and the Jammer must exchange helmet covers during a star pass.

Try it - I double dog dare ya. 

[Bishop]

When we kill off minors, can we ditch the panty passing stuff, too, Please?

Do you mean the Pivot position as well?  I think there are historical reasons for keeping the Pivot designation and the ability for another player to score points.

I'd rather see a loosening of the rules regarding star passes - or at least a loosening of the enforcement practices.  WFTDA roller derby requires that the Jammer take the cover off her own helmet and hand it to her Pivot.  Lead status is lost and the team can't score points until they have an active Jammer.  Those rules are pretty restrictive and greatly reduce the strategic value of a Pivot and a star pass.  So even if all the other the rules/enforcement practices are loosened, it is unlikely that star passes will become prevalent.