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Author Topic: No pack after Jam start  (Read 8692 times)

Offline Riff Reff

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No pack after Jam start
« on: February 19, 2009, 03:45:47 pm »
One jammer in the box. Jam starts with a whistle. The team with the jammer in the box does not start until the other team has moved 11'. At that time there is already no pack. Before they all get OOP penalties the jammerless team starts skating...

4.4.2 Once the rear of the pack has reached the Pivot line, the referee whistles the Jammers to begin their sprint through the pack [...]

Now there is no (back of the) pack to reach the line... Do you start the jammers anyway? If yes when do you do it?

Or do you call off the jam and restart it because the whole team does not follow 4.4.1

4.4.1 The pack begins rolling on a single whistle blast from the referee.

Don't look at the game with rules-tinted glasses; look at the rules with game-tinted glasses!

Offline L8R SK8R

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Re: No pack after Jam start
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2009, 04:07:54 pm »
Personally, the way I look at it is:

  • If there is a pack, then when the back of it reaches the Pivot line then the jammer start whistle is blown.
  • If there becomes no pack, then as soon as there is no pack to reach the Pivot line (i.e. one team keeps back, the two groups get split by 20'), the jammer whistles is blown.
  • If none of the blockers move at the first whistle, and are making no attempt to move, I would call off the jam, call the Captains over and have a stern discussion with them about respecting the game.

Offline Johnny Zebra

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Re: No pack after Jam start
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2009, 04:30:05 pm »
By the rules, I'd say the pack would have to reform before the second whistle blows.  Interesting. It's a loophole, but is it a douchebag loophole? Or a calculated strategy to burn some seconds at the beginning before the officials make the skaters reform under pain of penalty?

~j.z.
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Offline Professor Murder

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Re: No pack after Jam start
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2009, 05:11:16 pm »
Which rules would you cite for that, jz?
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Offline Jonathan Lee

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Re: No pack after Jam start
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2009, 05:16:26 pm »
    • If there becomes no pack, then as soon as there is no pack to reach the Pivot line (i.e. one team keeps back, the two groups get split by 20'), the jammer whistles is blown.

    Agree. There is no definite area of the rules to point to, but this makes the most sense using logic, making the decision that keeps the game moving without unnecessarily calling off jams, etc.

    • If none of the blockers move at the first whistle, and are making no attempt to move, I would call off the jam, call the Captains over and have a stern discussion with them about respecting the game.

    No. As long as they are on the track and a jam can start, they can kill all the time they want.


    Bay Area Derby Girls, head referee :: WFTDA Certified Referee, Level 3

    Offline Major Wood

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    Re: No pack after Jam start
    « Reply #5 on: February 19, 2009, 05:20:30 pm »
    I say whistle at the moment the pack splits.
    Split pack=no pack=no pack behind the pivot line.
    Your friendly Zebra Huddle admin.

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    Offline L8R SK8R

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    Re: No pack after Jam start
    « Reply #6 on: February 19, 2009, 05:22:21 pm »
    • If none of the blockers move at the first whistle, and are making no attempt to move, I would call off the jam, call the Captains over and have a stern discussion with them about respecting the game.

    No. As long as they are on the track and a jam can start, they can kill all the time they want.

    Fair enough. Sucks for the fans but there's nothing in the rules that says you can't have a 2 minute jam of everybody standing still. Of course, after that jam ended I would call the captains over, cause that would be RIDONKULOUS!!

    Offline Johnny Zebra

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    Re: No pack after Jam start
    « Reply #7 on: February 19, 2009, 06:14:54 pm »
    Which rules would you cite for that, jz?

    4.1.2  If the pack becomes split, no legal pack is defined.
    Skaters will be warned to speed up or slow down to reform the pack and are subject to
    penalties (see Section 6.2.11.4).


    (FWIW, I'd probably blow the jam whistle at the moment  there was no pack, and it was clear what going on. But if we're looking for rules to actually call this by . . .)

    But I like this too:

    Split pack=no pack=no pack behind the pivot line.

    It is analogous, somewhat, to what we do when a skater holds back and the rest of the pack goes.
    ~j.z.

    « Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 06:22:28 pm by Johnny Zebra »
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    Offline Professor Murder

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    Re: No pack after Jam start
    « Reply #8 on: February 19, 2009, 06:39:48 pm »
    Right.  I was corn-fused by your earlier post, thinking you were suggesting that a jam should be called if the pack is split.  Failure to reform penalties?  You betcha - that jammer who may be getting through and earning LJ scot-free sure is gaining a major advantage.  But I see no cause for stopping the jam, as some suggested.
    « Last Edit: February 19, 2009, 06:43:03 pm by Professor Murder »
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    Offline Ref Neck

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    Re: No pack after Jam start
    « Reply #9 on: February 19, 2009, 10:40:58 pm »
    I say whistle at the moment the pack splits.
    Split pack=no pack=no pack behind the pivot line.

    Agree. Also, if one skater just stays behind the pivot line and goes out of pack (but not out of play yet) we start the jammers off despite this. Rule says the pack has to cross the pivot line and you have to be part of the pack to effectively continue the delay of the jammer start signal.
    DC Rollergirls, Head Referee

    Offline Matt the Knife

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    Re: No pack after Jam start
    « Reply #10 on: February 26, 2009, 12:34:21 am »
    Of course, if that one team remained stood still for too long, the pack would be reformed as soon as the other team compleated a lap, then it'd be minor OOP penalties instantly all round, according to:

    6.2.11.3 A Blocker re-entering the pack from the front, having fallen behind the pack. A
    minor penalty should be applied to each offending Blocker. (see Section 4.3.2 )

    But by that point I would have called:

    6.2.11.4 Splitting the pack. If a team or group of skaters does not attempt to reform a
    legal pack, one penalty will be applied to a single player per team, if applicable, who
    seems most responsible (or the Pivot per Section 6.3.2.2).

    However I can't see how this is an advantageous situation for the offending team, going by Major Wood's theory of no pack = no pack behind the pivot line => start the jammers, the stationary blockers can't legally do anything to stop them, and the jammer would get the points instantly as they are OOP...and they'd get the ghost point for the Jammer in the box too.
    Matt the Knife
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    Offline Coach T

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    Re: No pack after Jam start
    « Reply #11 on: February 27, 2009, 02:06:51 am »
    There is more of an advantage then you all see.
    1. My jammer is in the box. Lets say for 20 more seconds.
    2. I have one blocker stay behind the start line when jam is started.
    Okay, now I am doing two things.
    1. Eating time off the clock for my jammer to leave the box.
    2. Allowing my jammer to get out and proceed to skate to the pack(out of bounds of course).
    A jammer must enter the track behind the other jammer if the jammer whistle has not blown yet.
    So my jammer(not sprinting before the jammer whistle, legal) is just behind the pack waiting to enter the track.
    She can enter the track after the ref blows the jammer whistle(realizing that the pack has went 20' from the last blocker(standing behind the line).
    My jammer is at the rear once the whistle blows, the other jammer has just left her start line.
    This has to be at least a half lap advantage.
    Will argue with a ref for food.
    I do not argue just to argue, I argue to learn.

    Offline Jonathan Lee

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    Re: No pack after Jam start
    « Reply #12 on: February 27, 2009, 08:15:59 am »
    Quote
    6.4.4.4 If a Jammer begins the jam in the box and her penalty time expires after the first
    whistle blows, but before the Jammer whistle blows, the Jammer coming out of the
    penalty box must enter behind the opposing Jammer.

    So, yeah, your jammer that was in the box can wait out of bounds, but if she enters in front of the other jammer it's a penalty, illegal procedure.

    When skaters leave the box, they have to go straight across from the box to the track. Other wise it's skating out of bounds. So the only way your jammer could be lined up with the pack is if that is where the penalty box is.

    Some leagues put penalty boxes between the pivot and jammer lines on the lines side. Some do it on the opposite side between turns 2 and 3. Sometimes it's at the corner between turns 3 and 4.
    Bay Area Derby Girls, head referee :: WFTDA Certified Referee, Level 3

    Offline Major Wood

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    Re: No pack after Jam start
    « Reply #13 on: February 27, 2009, 01:10:40 pm »
    When skaters leave the box, they have to go straight across from the box to the track. Other wise it's skating out of bounds.

    I understand where you are coming from with this, and I know the rules would absolutely support it. Though I've never seen this enforced, at all.
    Your friendly Zebra Huddle admin.

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    Offline Coach T

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    Re: No pack after Jam start
    « Reply #14 on: February 28, 2009, 12:54:14 am »
    "When skaters leave the box, they have to go straight across from the box to the track. Other wise it's skating out of bounds."????
    I have not read this anywhere in the rules.
     6.4.4 states "may" not "must"
    If it were true, you couldn't wait for the pack to pass(if half a lap away) to re-enter.
    Will argue with a ref for food.
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