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Author Topic: Checking Toe Stops - Split from "Counting Down"  (Read 7279 times)

Offline PaPaROTC

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Checking Toe Stops - Split from "Counting Down"
« on: November 11, 2010, 06:40:50 pm »
Thanks Darkjester for understanding my intent if not the wording I used.

The Gorram Reaver I am with you I use the hand up as a cue.  While watching Nationals I just thought that the teams were using it as well.  Since it is not mandatory or is it in the best practice, it is not standard across the world, some bouts do it, and some do not.  Like another can of worms, during equipment check do you check the toe stops? They are not required equipment but they will cause major impact if they fall out.  I have been places where the head ref wanted us to ask if we could check them, other places just had us check them.  We would simply tell the skater that it was loose and that they should tighten it before the bout started.

Thank you all that had useful input, you helped me see why WE have our Jam Timers raise their hands at 25 seconds and that it does not really give the skaters additional information that is not readily available.  I personally like a Jam Timer with a little personality, reminds me of the catapult guy on an aircraft carrier.
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Offline Eject You Later

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Checking Toe Stops - Split from "Counting Down"
« Reply #1 on: November 11, 2010, 09:54:12 pm »
during equipment check do you check the toe stops? They are not required equipment but they will cause major impact if they fall out.  I have been places where the head ref wanted us to ask if we could check them, other places just had us check them.  We would simply tell the skater that it was loose and that they should tighten it before the bout started.

We check toe stops at every bout that we referee at (home and away).  I've never asked permission to do so, and never been told not to do so.  Toe stop is a part of the skate, and in my opinion having it tight is every bit as necessary as ensuring that the skate laces are tied and tucked away in some fashion (a bajillion knots, short laces that have no hang, or beneath a strap or flap) to prevent catching in wheels.  I find this no different than checking to make sure that the cups on pads are secure as well as the elastic bands fastened when checking pads.  The toe stop is part of the skate and thus must be secured to the skate.

And having had a toe stop fall off in practice before, it's a very good idea for everyone on the track to ensure that it doesn't happen during a bout :)
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Offline Stegoscorus

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Checking Toe Stops - Split from "Counting Down"
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2010, 10:09:18 pm »
during equipment check do you check the toe stops? They are not required equipment but they will cause major impact if they fall out.  I have been places where the head ref wanted us to ask if we could check them, other places just had us check them.  We would simply tell the skater that it was loose and that they should tighten it before the bout started.

We check toe stops at every bout that we referee at (home and away).  I've never asked permission to do so, and never been told not to do so.  Toe stop is a part of the skate, and in my opinion having it tight is every bit as necessary as ensuring that the skate laces are tied and tucked away in some fashion (a bajillion knots, short laces that have no hang, or beneath a strap or flap) to prevent catching in wheels.  I find this no different than checking to make sure that the cups on pads are secure as well as the elastic bands fastened when checking pads.  The toe stop is part of the skate and thus must be secured to the skate.

And having had a toe stop fall off in practice before, it's a very good idea for everyone on the track to ensure that it doesn't happen during a bout :)

Toe stops are not required safety equipment, so refs should not feel compelled to check them.  They are not even a required part of the skate; lots of skaters don't use them. 

If you do feel the need to check toe stops, always alert skater before hand.  Pulling on someone's skate when she is not expecting it often results in her falling down, usually on you. 

No one likes it when a toe stop falls off in a bout, but having skates in good shape is the responsibility of the skater.  When I do equipment check, I end it with a quick "Check your toe stops please." 
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Offline Eject You Later

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Checking Toe Stops - Split from "Counting Down"
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2010, 11:03:48 pm »
Toe stops are not required safety equipment, so refs should not feel compelled to check them.  They are not even a required part of the skate; lots of skaters don't use them. 

It's not required, so if a skater fails to wear one I have no problem with that.  If they do have a toe stop on their skate then I do feel compelled to check it.  I've never had anyone refuse to let me check their toe stop, and I guess if it ever happens then there isn't anything that I can do about it (since it isn't mandated).  But having been a recipient of a toe-stop malfunction, and having witnessed several during bouts, I do feel that it a good idea to check them as it can very much be a safety hazard.

Quote
If you do feel the need to check toe stops, always alert skater before hand.  Pulling on someone's skate when she is not expecting it often results in her falling down, usually on you. 

This is something that I haven't done, mainly because I've always assumed that "safety check" included toe stops and that skaters would be expecting it.  Point taken, however, about those that are not expecting it.  I will definitely alert skaters in the future (tomorrow, actually :) ).

Thanks!
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Offline Major Wood

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Checking Toe Stops - Split from "Counting Down"
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2010, 12:19:13 am »
There is a growing number of referees who don't check toe stops. I include myself in that.

I agree that they can be a safety hazard, but they are also not my responsibility and not required. Some toe stops will never stay tight, but never fall out (this happens somewhat frequently on the triton plate). What do you do if they don't/can't tighten their toe stop?

No skater has given you a hard time about it because you are in a position of authority. If you get pulled over and the officer tells you they need to see your license, registration and proof of insurance, do you tell them they don't need to see proof of insurance, so they shouldn't be asking? No, you do what you're told, because they have an established authority over you.
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Offline JoeXCore

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Checking Toe Stops - Split from "Counting Down"
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2010, 12:22:48 am »
I didn't intend to check toe stops at the last for bout which I was head ref... the girls seemed offended. The captains asked me to check the toe stops.
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Offline Brad Religion

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Checking Toe Stops - Split from "Counting Down"
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2010, 12:52:20 am »
If they're all that concerned about it, why can't they check their own? I'm pretty much done with worrying about anyone's toe stops but my own at this point - and that will last until the next time I eat sh*t falling over someone's.
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Offline ExceptionHandler

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Checking Toe Stops - Split from "Counting Down"
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2010, 06:37:54 am »
I check toestops but leave it up to the skater wether to do anything about it if it's loose.
In some ways it's just a reminder that I give them in the interest of safety, other skaters' and their own.
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Offline Noah Tall

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Checking Toe Stops - Split from "Counting Down"
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2010, 03:48:47 pm »
Last bout I reffed, I checked gear, and informed skaters to check their skates.  Sure enough, someone's toestop came off during a jam, and the skaters started screaming at us.  *sigh*
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Offline JoeXCore

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Checking Toe Stops - Split from "Counting Down"
« Reply #9 on: November 14, 2010, 03:01:33 pm »
Last night I was speaking with the head referee for a league and he was saying that at his league not only do they check toe-stops... they also tighten them. Wow.

« Last Edit: November 14, 2010, 03:12:49 pm by JoeXCore »
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Offline Black Adder

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Re: Checking Toe Stops - Split from "Counting Down"
« Reply #10 on: November 15, 2010, 12:17:07 am »
Last night I was speaking with the head referee for a league and he was saying that at his league not only do they check toe-stops... they also tighten them. Wow.



If I can tighten a toe-stop quickly while checking them I will but if it's quite loose I'll ask the Skater to do it.
I've always been instructed by the HR who trained me (and still does) that Toe-stops should be checked. It never takes very long and now I'd feel strange not doing it.
I always found it strange, having played mixed sports before, that fingernails aren't checked and kept short or taped. This seems to happen in most other womens sports such as netball etc..

Offline noidd

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Re: Checking Toe Stops - Split from "Counting Down"
« Reply #11 on: November 15, 2010, 12:34:23 am »
Last bout I reffed, I checked gear, and informed skaters to check their skates.  Sure enough, someone's toestop came off during a jam, and the skaters started screaming at us.  *sigh*

... and this is why I am so against checking toe stops.

Where does this expectation that WE know the skater's own equipment better than they do come from?

I'm about this >< close to just doing visual inspections after seeing a skater whose wristguard I checked shattered on impact.

I'm wondering if by doing an inspection other than "do you have this" I'm possibly opening myself up to liability.

"Dear Referee, you inspected this skater's equipment and you failed to notice that the protective insert was cracked.  Due to your negligence the skater has sustained an injury ..." etc.

Am I qualified to judge structural integrity of a plastic insert?

On the other hand, with all other referee squads doing it, there is the other argument that if you don't do full equipment inspections and the skaters have an expectation that you will do it and you don't and their equipment fails, you could be liable.

Ugh.
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Offline mick hawkins

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Re: Checking Toe Stops - Split from "Counting Down"
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2010, 12:57:57 am »
I've always been instructed by the HR who trained me (and still does) that Toe-stops should be checked. It never takes very long and now I'd feel strange not doing it.

Just adding in here that the decision to check toestops came about after consultation with the skaters.
We had a spate of rogue toe stops resulting in safety hazards and jams being called.
I asked the skaters about it. They wanted us to check toestops - so the decsion was made.

When doing this, I've left it to the skaters to tighten their stops.
(I don't consider it my responsibility to do it for them)

I've encountered toestops that can't be tightened (mostly since tritons were released) - the skater can (of course) play in the bout....
which obviously makes me wonder, why we're checking them at all these days

Perhaps it's time to review our practice

« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 01:08:18 am by mick hawkins »
Sun State Roller Girls (WFTDA Apprentice League)
Brisbane, Australia

Offline FairuleGoat

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Re: Checking Toe Stops - Split from "Counting Down"
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2010, 03:13:38 am »
Our league checks all toestops for bouts and scrimmage sessions.

During scrimmage is good prac for new refs to get a handle on what to look for during safety checks. Also pre-bout ready skaters know what is required and get familiar with the procedure.

For any loose stops found I advise them to tighten it themselves and re-present to ensure its been fixed.

Any toestop plugs are also checked for tightness as these can fall out as unfortunately many skaters have never heard of loctite.

All legal jargon aside I consider this part of my duty of care as a ref whereas I consider the skaters the ones responsible for ensuring their gear is correctly maintained and in good condition.

Not sure we can do more than that ?
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Offline Gazooka

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Re: Checking Toe Stops - Split from "Counting Down"
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2010, 10:33:34 am »
I'm wondering if by doing an inspection other than "do you have this" I'm possibly opening myself up to liability.

I am not a lawyer, but I think this greatly depends on what has been agreed by all parties (in writing), and also what you say whilst doing the check.

This is why I also avoid references to the safe-ness of equipment (in particular I don't call it a safety check due to the legal implications), and try to refer to equipment as being within the rules or not.

Am I qualified to judge structural integrity of a plastic insert?

Perhaps a better question is are teams expecting you to do this, and what are the ramifications (namely legal) of you doing this and then having a skater's equipment fail and they pick up an injury (of which the failure may or may not have been a factor)?

 

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