Menu

ZH Classifieds
ZH Files
ZH Staff
WFTDA 12/1/2014 Rules
WFTDA 3/1/2014 Rules

Donate

Please Support Zebra Huddle!

Recent Posts

Re: Answering a directional with forearms by Major Wood
April 30, 2019, 07:44:47 pm

Answering a directional with forearms by Rego_Derby
April 30, 2019, 05:56:20 pm

Re: Yielding to the opposite side of the track by Bluebeard
April 22, 2019, 07:21:28 pm

Yielding to the opposite side of the track by MyBabyDaddy
April 21, 2019, 03:22:45 am

Re: Clamping down with the upper arm by Vanilla VICE
April 14, 2019, 07:46:55 pm

Clamping down with the upper arm by rogrant
April 08, 2019, 09:25:34 pm

Re: 5 blocker points by bmd (2113)
March 21, 2019, 05:58:08 pm

5 blocker points by Hagar
March 16, 2019, 10:06:32 am

Ohio Roller Derby Home Season by Stray Taco
January 04, 2019, 10:12:22 pm

Cincinnati Rollergirls 2019 Home Season by bmd (2113)
December 11, 2018, 05:06:50 pm

Author Topic: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)  (Read 30952 times)

Offline Stegoscorus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 773
  • Stats Sheet: 51
  • STOP. Collaborate, and listen.
  • League Affiliation: Rose City Rollers
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 3
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2009, 06:03:18 pm »
Huh...we always just wave them past and make them come in from the appropriate direction.  I suppose we'd assess a minor IP if they refused and just sat down after passing the line, but Ref Neck makes a good point: it doesn't say to make them do it better, it says to assess penalties.  I'll have to bring this up to my superiors...

For the record, we also use two Point of No Return lines, one for each team's section of the box.  Alternately, some leagues are starting to use a diagonal line.  Talk to Philly and Madison if you're curious about that. 


(P.S. - 4 minors = 1 minute in the box, but 4 minors do not = 1 major!  Get out of here and hang out with the One-Pass old timers ;))
WFTDA Certified Referee - Level 3
Founding Member, ARROW
Portland, OR, U.S.A.

Offline DayGlo Divine

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 926
  • Stats Sheet: 39
  • Fighter of the Night Man, Champion of the Sun
Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2009, 06:25:18 pm »
(P.S. - 4 minors = 1 minute in the box, but 4 minors do not = 1 major!  Get out of here and hang out with the One-Pass old timers ;))

Beat me to it. :D
WFTDA Certified Referee (Level 2)
Charm City Roller Girls
Opinions expressed here are mine. Not WFTDA's, not Charm City's, and not those of Zebra Huddle as a whole.

Offline Johnny Zebra

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 768
  • Stats Sheet: 40
Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2009, 06:32:08 pm »
Huh...we always just wave them past and make them come in from the appropriate direction.  I suppose we'd assess a minor IP if they refused and just sat down after passing the line, but Ref Neck makes a good point: it doesn't say to make them do it better, it says to assess penalties. 

FYI - the thread referenced above makes note of the Best Practices document for Penalty Timers, which states that the PT should not start timing if the skater has entered from the wrong direction. So, pick your flavor.

FYI about the FYI: I've merged these threads, so now all of our PoNR goodness is in one spot.

~j.z.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 06:35:51 pm by Johnny Zebra »
===============
Johnny Zebra
WFTDA Certified Referee (Level 3)
WFTDA Rules Q&A Working Group
Gotham Girls Roller Derby
Zebra Huddle Moderator

Offline the pantichrist

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 110
  • Stats Sheet: 6
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 3
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2009, 05:09:30 am »
What are common practices concerning leaving the penalty box? 

I'm not asking about 6.4.4 After serving one minute in the penalty box, a penalized skater may re-enter the track.
She must enter the pack from the back.
I'm asking about the approach to the track from the penalty box.

We have the box on the side between the benches, in the straight away between turns 4 and 1.  We used to have the box in the center and we had an exit lane leaving the box to the track. 

When leaving the box can skaters use the ref lane for a time before re-entering the track?  I wanted to use the PoNR line in a similar way as the exit lane we used for the box when we kept the box in the center.

We had a visiting skater from Chicago with us tonight at practice.  I was explaining the PoNR line to the skaters and she agreed with the pass-the-line-do-the-lap policy and she said that's the way she's seen it done any place she's played but upon re-entry they sometimes skate for a good distance in the ref lane and are okay as long as they enter the pack from the back.

This makes more sense to me because that way they wouldn't be trying to enter the track from a dead or almost dead stop.

Is this common and if so how long can they skate in the ref lane before they're violating- 6.2.9 SKATING OUT-OF-BOUNDS Skaters must remain in-bounds. No part of the skater's skate(s) may touch the ground outside the track boundary.?  Or does 6.2.9 even come into play since they haven't yet established any kind of in-bounds position?

« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 09:12:54 pm by the pantichrist »
WFTDA Officiating Education Director
WFTDA Certified L3
Memphis Roller Derby

Offline Johnny Zebra

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 768
  • Stats Sheet: 40
Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2009, 02:55:14 pm »
What are common practices concerning leaving the penalty box? 

 . . .

When leaving the box can skaters use the ref lane for a time before re-entering the track?  I wanted to use the PoNR line in a similar was as the exit lane we used for the box when we kept the box in the center.

 . . .

Is this common and if so how long can they skate in the ref lane before they're violating- 6.2.9 SKATING OUT-OF-BOUNDS Skaters must remain in-bounds. No part of the skater's skate(s) may touch the ground outside the track boundary.?  Or does 6.2.9 even come into play since they haven't yet established any kind of in-bounds position?



Some good discussion of this by Hunter Stompson here:

http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=148.msg3160#msg3160 (and forward)

Short take: they need to exit directly from the penalty box. They can wait at the penalty box, but they cannot skate.

~j.z.
===============
Johnny Zebra
WFTDA Certified Referee (Level 3)
WFTDA Rules Q&A Working Group
Gotham Girls Roller Derby
Zebra Huddle Moderator

Offline the pantichrist

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 110
  • Stats Sheet: 6
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 3
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2009, 05:41:15 am »

Some good discussion of this by Hunter Stompson here:

http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=148.msg3160#msg3160 (and forward)

Short take: they need to exit directly from the penalty box. They can wait at the penalty box, but they cannot skate.

~j.z.

Okay, cool.  Stompson seems to know what he's talking about and that falls in line with my original inclination.

Thanks.
WFTDA Officiating Education Director
WFTDA Certified L3
Memphis Roller Derby

Offline Catch22

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Stats Sheet: 0
Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2009, 04:09:05 am »
Hey ya!

Can anyone tell me where I can find the penalty awarded for entering the penalty box from the wrong direction (clock-wise)?
I'm aware that there needs to be one handed down as per:

6.4.2.1 Additional penalties will be assessed if she cuts the track or approaches the
penalty box from the wrong direction.


I have searched through the rules to find out if that penalty should be a major or minor but I have not found it thus far..
Anyone care to point me in the right way?

Many thanks!

Offline Major Wood

  • Administrator
  • Has Too Much Damn Time Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2660
  • Stats Sheet: 77
  • League Affiliation: Nashville Rollergirls
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 5
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2009, 04:16:37 am »
If you give a penalty for this, it would be an illegal procedure. An illegal procedure is an illegal action that does not directly affect another skater.
Many leagues simply have their box timers refuse to time the penalty until the skater does another lap and re-enters properly.
Your friendly Zebra Huddle admin.

Nashville Roller Derby Head Ref
WFTDA Level 5 Certified Referee

I speak only of my opinions and interpretations.

Offline Darkjester

  • Has Too Much Damn Time Member
  • ********************
  • Posts: 3067
  • Stats Sheet: 39
  • "When in doubt, RTFM"
  • League Affiliation: Beach Brawl SK8R Dolls
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2009, 04:19:21 am »
Probably Illegal Procedure. As she's gaining a advantage from an illegal act.

As to minor vs. Major, most of the time the Penalty Box operator will make her turn around and enter the box from the right direction I'd side with just a minor.

Madness Tolls
69¢
Beach Brawl Sk8R Dolls
Fort Walton Beach FL

Offline Catch22

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
  • Stats Sheet: 0
Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2009, 05:14:55 am »
Thank you!

I figured that it would be an IP but since it wasn't listed under IP penalties, I wondered if I had missed it and it was written somewhere else.

Thanks for your help!
Catch

Offline Conan

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • Stats Sheet: 0
  • Los Angeles
Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2009, 10:23:32 am »
This is a good question.  I just had a discussion with Hannah about this.  Here's an excerpt

Conan: I don't like this idea of making the skaters do another lap if they come to the PB in a clockwise direction.
Hannah: Why not?  Lots of leagues do that.  Most leagues do that.
Conan: I don't see where it's provided in the rules to make up a punishment like that.  You might as well make them do 10 pushups.  It's completely arbitrary.
Hannah: You're being ridiculous.  How do you think it should be done?
Conan: IP major.  Easy.
Hannah: Major? That's pretty harsh.  I could see it as a minor, but who's calling that foul?
Conan: Have the PB guy do it.
talking over each other Hannah: but the PB guy can't call fouls
Conan: shit but that guy can't call a foul
pause
Conan: I love roller derby
Hannah: Me too
« Last Edit: April 25, 2009, 10:25:35 am by Conan »
WFTDA Rules Q & A Worker
WFTDA Certified 3

Offline Ref Neck

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 178
  • Stats Sheet: 15
Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2009, 11:17:11 am »
Why major? It takes less than 15 seconds to do a lap around the track which is what a minor equates out to once you get four of them.
DC Rollergirls, Head Referee

Offline Miss Trie

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 100
  • Stats Sheet: 2
  • When you skate a perfect game, I'll call one.
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2009, 03:07:25 pm »
It takes less than 15 seconds to do a lap around the track which is what a minor equates out to once you get four of them.

That is why Dixie makes skaters that pass the point of no return/skate clockwise to the box do another lap before they can sit. We only issue penalties for it in the case of a skater refusing to take another lap. In that rare circumstance,  PB timer tells an outside pack ref that skater XXX didn't take another lap and the OP ref gives her a major illegal procedure, tells the PB timer to time her for 2 minutes & passes the penalty off to an outside penalty tracker.
Dixie Derby Girls NSO
Huntsville, AL

Offline Johnny Zebra

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 768
  • Stats Sheet: 40
Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2009, 03:32:06 pm »
Hey ya!

Can anyone tell me where I can find the penalty awarded for entering the penalty box from the wrong direction (clock-wise)?
I'm aware that there needs to be one handed down as per:

6.4.2.1 Additional penalties will be assessed if she cuts the track or approaches the
penalty box from the wrong direction.


I have searched through the rules to find out if that penalty should be a major or minor but I have not found it thus far..
Anyone care to point me in the right way?

Many thanks!

Hey all -- topic merged to an earlier one that extensively discusses this. See Treble's post that kicks this (now) merged thread off.

~j.z.
===============
Johnny Zebra
WFTDA Certified Referee (Level 3)
WFTDA Rules Q&A Working Group
Gotham Girls Roller Derby
Zebra Huddle Moderator

Offline Conan

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • Stats Sheet: 0
  • Los Angeles
Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2009, 07:41:08 pm »
Why major? It takes less than 15 seconds to do a lap around the track which is what a minor equates out to once you get four of them.
This was a comment that I made within the framework of a discussion that I was having with one of my refs.  We banter back and forth like this quite a bit off the track.  Engaging in hypothetical discussion in the hopes of finding Reasonable solutions that jive with the rules. As you can see from the excerpt of the discussion, the comment I made about it being grounds for a major went no where. 

I'd be surprised if lots of refs didn't engage in this kind of talk. 
WFTDA Rules Q & A Worker
WFTDA Certified 3

 

Featured Product

 

Zebra Huddle Head Referee Bout Booklet

 

Featured Classifieds


ZH Files

How to Score a Point in Roller Derby
Rating: *****
Downloads: 3111
Views: 4901
Filesize: 327.61KB
Date: January 17, 2017, 04:21:03 am
Comments (0)
By: AdamSmasher
June 2013 Ruleset situational questions
Rating: *****
Downloads: 2216
Views: 4594
Filesize: 29.71KB
Date: February 07, 2014, 04:57:32 pm
Comments (2)
By: Crash Test Ref
Rules Q&A and Publications for 6/15/13 Document
Rating: (None)
Downloads: 2380
Views: 5119
Filesize: 26.27KB
Date: August 02, 2013, 04:10:40 pm
Comments (0)
By: Shaun Ketterman
Rules Q&A and Publications for 1/1/13 Document (4/24/13 Updates)
Rating: *****
Downloads: 3163
Views: 5152
Filesize: 28.07KB
Date: April 25, 2013, 05:45:34 pm
Comments (0)
By: Shaun Ketterman

Powered by EzPortal