intruder

Menu

ZH Classifieds
ZH Files
ZH Staff
WFTDA 12/1/2014 Rules
WFTDA 3/1/2014 Rules

Donate

Please Support Zebra Huddle!

Recent Posts

x-ray scanner by joereitman
August 17, 2019, 05:03:44 am

under vehicle surveillance system by joereitman
August 17, 2019, 04:59:44 am

Re: "Pincer" blocks = multipayer? by Bluebeard
July 11, 2019, 06:30:49 pm

"Pincer" blocks = multipayer? by Rego_Derby
July 11, 2019, 01:08:36 am

Re: Jammer Scoring Theory by Major Wood
June 26, 2019, 09:59:33 pm

Jammer Scoring Theory by Rego_Derby
June 25, 2019, 04:30:03 am

Re: Clamping down with the upper arm by bmd (2113)
June 12, 2019, 07:54:29 pm

Re: Ref facepaint by Major Wood
June 12, 2019, 04:16:34 pm

Re: Ref facepaint by Rego_Derby
June 11, 2019, 11:35:08 pm

Re: Ref facepaint by Axis of Stevil
June 10, 2019, 06:56:10 pm

Author Topic: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)  (Read 32453 times)

Offline noidd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 972
  • Stats Sheet: 28
  • Start with 100% accuracy and get better over time.
Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #45 on: April 26, 2009, 12:49:22 pm »
Why major? It takes less than 15 seconds to do a lap around the track which is what a minor equates out to once you get four of them.

We call a major and it is covered in our captains meetings.

My thoughts on it are this:

Assuming 15s is a fair time for a lap... there is the potential for that effect to be almost doubled.  (pack sync).

15-30s of a team being a skater short is an eternity in derby and potentially has a major effect.  Especially if that skater is the jammer.

I personally am not a huge fan of NSOs telling them to skate around again as I consider that coaching.  You are in effect instructing the skater as to how to avoid a penalty.

That however is the head-ref's call, not mine and is my first question when I work the box.

By the time I'm ready to head-ref we'll be judging penalties for coming into the penalty box vertically on jet-boots.

--
Referees are not here to legislate, dictate, pontificate or participate.  We are there only to facilitate.

Offline Riff Reff

  • Superhero Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1001
  • Stats Sheet: 30
  • League Affiliation: Dublin Roller Derby
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2009, 09:53:22 pm »
I am bringing this up again, to get some opinions/best practice. How do you handle a skater entering the box from the wrong direction:

a) start timing her. give her an IP minor on top. (only if a ref sees it)
b) start timing her. give her an IP minor on top. (if no ref sees it have the NSO report it to the head ref)
c) advise you NSOs not to time her penalty until she skates around the track and arrives from the right direction
Don't look at the game with rules-tinted glasses; look at the rules with game-tinted glasses!

Offline Jonathan Lee

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 180
  • Stats Sheet: 22
Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2009, 01:27:11 am »
d) start timing her. give her an IP minor on top. (If either a ref or an NSO sees it. NSO can report it to any ref to have it reported to the penalty trackers)

Never c. Doing so would be making up a rule.
Bay Area Derby Girls, head referee :: WFTDA Certified Referee, Level 3

Offline Stegoscorus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 773
  • Stats Sheet: 51
  • STOP. Collaborate, and listen.
  • League Affiliation: Rose City Rollers
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 3
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #48 on: May 09, 2009, 08:15:35 am »
d) start timing her. give her an IP minor on top. (If either a ref or an NSO sees it. NSO can report it to any ref to have it reported to the penalty trackers)

Never c. Doing so would be making up a rule.

Depends on which rule set you are using.  3.1 says:
6.4.2.1 Additional penalties will be assessed if she cuts the track or approaches the penalty box from the wrong direction. 


While 4.0 says:

7.3.2.1 Penalty timing will not begin until the penalized player legally enters the penalty box from the appropriate counter-clockwise direction.

WFTDA Certified Referee - Level 3
Founding Member, ARROW
Portland, OR, U.S.A.

Offline Riff Reff

  • Superhero Member
  • **********
  • Posts: 1001
  • Stats Sheet: 30
  • League Affiliation: Dublin Roller Derby
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #49 on: May 09, 2009, 10:25:56 am »
ahh thx Stego.. damn.. I just did not have the time to REALLY look into 4.0...
so it leaves us no choice then (no choice is good because it's clear)
Don't look at the game with rules-tinted glasses; look at the rules with game-tinted glasses!

Offline Jonathan Lee

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 180
  • Stats Sheet: 22
Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #50 on: May 09, 2009, 06:46:05 pm »
Thanks for pointing that out Stego.
That's good to point out the 4.0 rules while these last few 3.1 discussions happen.
Bay Area Derby Girls, head referee :: WFTDA Certified Referee, Level 3

Offline noidd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 972
  • Stats Sheet: 28
  • Start with 100% accuracy and get better over time.
Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #51 on: May 11, 2009, 03:06:15 am »
Never c. Doing so would be making up a rule.

Not that it matters anymore but I always read option c) as being correct in 3.1.  However, every league I ever saw or ref I spoke to called it the other way (although I had seen a discrepency between major and minor calls on the IP).

I for one welcome that specific change to 4.0.  I think it is the most natural and fair way to enforce correct entry into the box.

--
Referees are not here to legislate, dictate, pontificate or participate.  We are there only to facilitate.

Offline lets get it Shawn

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 160
  • Stats Sheet: 0
Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #52 on: May 11, 2009, 04:24:45 pm »
Hard Knox Roller Girls
Head Referee
Knoxville TN

And on the 8th Day god created me and the Devil stood at attention!

Offline Darkjester

  • Has Too Much Damn Time Member
  • ********************
  • Posts: 3067
  • Stats Sheet: 39
  • "When in doubt, RTFM"
  • League Affiliation: Beach Brawl SK8R Dolls
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #53 on: May 11, 2009, 04:50:17 pm »
You are correct in that "Point of No Return" is nowhere listed in the rules, however I believe that its intimated due to the "Must skate counter-clockwise" to enter the box. If you've passed the box, and then you turn around and skate BACK to the box against the flow of derby traffic, you are skating clockwise to the box.

I think the Point of No Return is just a creation which plenty of leagues have come up with to prevent a safety issue of players skating in the 'wrong' direction back to the box and colliding with skaters entering the box correctly. The so called "Lap of Shame" isn't so much to punish a skater for either committing the penalty, OR for missing the correct entrance or coming in the wrong direction, as it is to prevent unnecessary outside of play collisions. In play collisions are part of the sport, out of play collisions are accidents that can be prevented or mitigated.

We used at our last home bout a month ago, a 'entrance/exit' zone.  Since we had dual penalty boxes on the inside of the track, we made an entrance and exit line for each team. The Entrance line was 'diagonal' at the turn 2, and 4, and the 'exit' line was perpendicular to the track at 1, 3.  This way it was the same for each team, the teams could not 'sprint' out of the box, but could step right into play, or 'roll' to the line and step in without crossing the line.   At the period ends, the boxes were swapped so no team had a unfair box advantage.

Was it 100% by the WFTDA rules? No. However it was minor decisions that did not adversely affect game play, and made penalty box ingress/egress a bit safer for all involved.

Madness Tolls
69¢
Beach Brawl Sk8R Dolls
Fort Walton Beach FL

Offline lets get it Shawn

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 160
  • Stats Sheet: 0
Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #54 on: May 11, 2009, 05:01:33 pm »
I agree with you 100% Dark I believe it always had to do with safety for Referees and skaters alike. 

Announcer "and there goes the skater out of bounds O look she is hip whiping the referee way to go ref"

And, I love your penalty layout. If I am imagining it write. 
Similar to Nascar pit row entrance and exit?

I will have to try and implement this at the next bout I am at.
Hard Knox Roller Girls
Head Referee
Knoxville TN

And on the 8th Day god created me and the Devil stood at attention!

Offline Stegoscorus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 773
  • Stats Sheet: 51
  • STOP. Collaborate, and listen.
  • League Affiliation: Rose City Rollers
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 3
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #55 on: May 11, 2009, 05:13:02 pm »
I agree with you 100% Dark I believe it always had to do with safety for Referees and skaters alike. 

Announcer "and there goes the skater out of bounds O look she is hip whiping the referee way to go ref"


P.S. - Skaters should not be touching referees in this manner at all.  Some bumping into is to be expected, but this kind of thing should result in a Major IP.
WFTDA Certified Referee - Level 3
Founding Member, ARROW
Portland, OR, U.S.A.

Offline Jonathan Lee

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 180
  • Stats Sheet: 22
Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #56 on: May 11, 2009, 05:32:01 pm »
The "point of no return" is really just the border of the penalty box. It shouldn't be an extra, special line.

If you've passed the box, and then you turn around and skate BACK to the box against the flow of derby traffic, you are skating clockwise to the box.

Yes, but I'd say it this way just so it matches with the rules wording:

If you've passed the box, and then you turn around and skate BACK to the box against the flow of derby traffic, you are approaching the penalty box from the wrong direction.

And this is a case where you need to be reasonable. If they have already approached the box from the correct direction and end up slightly past the border (for whatever reason - sliding, t-stopping) and it's only slightly past the box, there's no need to have them get a penalty or do an additional lap.
Bay Area Derby Girls, head referee :: WFTDA Certified Referee, Level 3

Offline lets get it Shawn

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 160
  • Stats Sheet: 0
Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #57 on: May 11, 2009, 05:59:25 pm »
I agree with you 100% Dark I believe it always had to do with safety for Referees and skaters alike. 

Announcer "and there goes the skater out of bounds O look she is hip whiping the referee way to go ref"


P.S. - Skaters should not be touching referees in this manner at all.  Some bumping into is to be expected, but this kind of thing should result in a Major IP.

Haha yes it is a major :)
Hard Knox Roller Girls
Head Referee
Knoxville TN

And on the 8th Day god created me and the Devil stood at attention!

Offline Major Wood

  • Administrator
  • Has Too Much Damn Time Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2663
  • Stats Sheet: 77
  • League Affiliation: Nashville Rollergirls
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 5
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #58 on: May 11, 2009, 06:32:18 pm »
Quote
At the period ends, the boxes were swapped so no team had a unfair box advantage.

I used to think this too. It simply isn't true. The team that has further to go to get to the PONR line in the first period is at a disadvantage.
In the first period, that team gets the advantage of more time to slow down before crossing the PONR line. The fact is though, that it is less likely that a team will have as many box trips in the first period as they will in the second. This is because of minors accumulating, and sometimes desperation toward the end of the game.
The only thing that I have found to be somewhat successful in minimizing any advantage? Have two lines, one for each team's box.
Your friendly Zebra Huddle admin.

Nashville Roller Derby Head Ref
WFTDA Level 5 Certified Referee

I speak only of my opinions and interpretations.

Offline Darkjester

  • Has Too Much Damn Time Member
  • ********************
  • Posts: 3067
  • Stats Sheet: 39
  • "When in doubt, RTFM"
  • League Affiliation: Beach Brawl SK8R Dolls
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #59 on: May 11, 2009, 08:41:06 pm »
We do have actually 4 lines :-)

I'm sorry if the initial post wasn't clear. We have a VERY small gymnasium we play in, 200 people is the max that can fit in our bleachers and almost NO room at all on the outer edges for seating. So if you imagine a small rectangle shaped gym, we place each team beach against the East wall corner South and North, near a doorway so they can keep cooler.

In the middle of the track we have 2 benches back to back. One for each teams penalty box, and the whiteboard for Penalties at the north end.

The "Point of No Return, also serves as our "Entrance line" back to the track, which prevents skaters exiting the box from skating around in the inside of the track until a convenient place to enter.  The "Entrance" line, is diagonal ( going with the flow of corners 2 and 4) to give them a wide angle they can come in at. Anytime from the corner entrance ( which is approximately 15-20 ft Track wise from the ' Point of no return" opposing box) they can come in all the way up through the straight away until approximately where the PIvot start line is,( and opposite on the other side).  This gives them a VERY wide area to enter the penalty box from approximately 1/3 of the track for each team on separate sides.




Madness Tolls
69¢
Beach Brawl Sk8R Dolls
Fort Walton Beach FL

 

Featured Product

 

Zebra Huddle Head Referee Bout Booklet

 

Featured Classifieds


ZH Files

How to Score a Point in Roller Derby
Rating: *****
Downloads: 3269
Views: 5283
Filesize: 327.61KB
Date: January 17, 2017, 04:21:03 am
Comments (0)
By: AdamSmasher
June 2013 Ruleset situational questions
Rating: *****
Downloads: 2365
Views: 4879
Filesize: 29.71KB
Date: February 07, 2014, 04:57:32 pm
Comments (2)
By: Crash Test Ref
Rules Q&A and Publications for 6/15/13 Document
Rating: (None)
Downloads: 2527
Views: 5444
Filesize: 26.27KB
Date: August 02, 2013, 04:10:40 pm
Comments (0)
By: Shaun Ketterman
Rules Q&A and Publications for 1/1/13 Document (4/24/13 Updates)
Rating: *****
Downloads: 3303
Views: 5430
Filesize: 28.07KB
Date: April 25, 2013, 05:45:34 pm
Comments (0)
By: Shaun Ketterman

Powered by EzPortal