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Author Topic: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)  (Read 31442 times)

Offline Major Wood

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Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2009, 03:04:32 pm »
If it is a penalty, I don't think that it is a major.
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Offline L8R SK8R

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Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2009, 04:23:58 pm »
This is interesting to me since we are on this island here... I never heard of nor ever thought of sending away a skater approaching the box from the wrong direction.

So that is how we instruct the penalty timers: If a skater comes from the wrong direction, leaves the box early etc. - get an OPR, tell her/him to report this. OPR or Head Ref will issue an IP penalty to the respective skater.
Nothing in the rules says, send her away to approach from the right directions. (To me this is like telling a skater who committed a false start to get back behind the line and start again) It says it is a foul to do so and it has to be punished. It is an illegal procedure therefore IP penalty. I would even give her a Major for it, so 2 minutes in the box.
Is this wrong?

Your assessment is fair. Unfortunately the IP section doesn't provide guidelines for this type of situation. But I think it is appropriate to use the OOP guidelines regarding measurable consequence on the game. After all, someone who avoids taking an extra lap around the box may exit the box many seconds before she would have, and a NOTT point can disappear earlier than it should have. A major sounds like an appropriate penalty for going to the box in the wrong direction.

Offline noidd

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Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2009, 06:40:48 pm »

I agree with L8r here, it is definately a major given that not doing so conceivably would reduce the amount of time in the penalty box by 20 seconds.  There isn't really a good penalty class for this but OOP certainly seems fair and appropriate.

However, putting on my pedant hat and robe... it could be suggested that the NSO ordering the skater to do another lap is "coaching".  After all, they are giving a skater instructions on how to avoid a penalty.  A penalty which, knowing the rules they should know how to avoid themselves...

Unless the NSO called: "You entered the box from the wrong direction" as a warning and let them make their own descision.
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Offline Cliquework

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Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2009, 07:51:18 pm »
Has anybody tried putting the penalty boxes on opposite straightaways, with like a huge ass blinking neon sign above each saying which team goes in which one? How did that work out?

Oddly enough, we're adding big ol' couches to the penalty box this year. Pretty hard to pass those, not to mention easier to crash into. It also may keep them from trying to leave early. As a tip to any NSO running penalty box, don't "count down to 0". They will leave early everytime. Just say "Go" when it's time.
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Offline Ref Neck

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Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2009, 07:59:04 pm »
A major is overkill. Minor for IP, start their penalty time when the meat hits the seat. Written rules and common convention don't necessarily overlap. Rulesets used to be agreed upon prior to specific events (tournaments, multibout events). I believe that this is one of the agreed upon rules for a past event that became common convention despite the rule not being updated.

Remember you were supposed to give a penalty for IP when a skater left the box into the front of the pack? It didnt specify major/minor and ref discrection ran rampant causing inconsistent calls between officials. Now its a major for getting in front of two or more skaters in the pack clearly defined in the rules (and mirrors the cutting track penalties). Something similiar should probably be done for the approaching the box from the wrong direction.

The entire point of no return advantage/disadvantage argument seems weird to me. One bench is closer to the jammer line, one closer to the pivot line. Its a line, get behind it and stay there when you need to. Mountains and molehills.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2009, 08:16:18 pm by Ref Neck »
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Offline noidd

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Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2009, 09:40:02 pm »
A major is overkill.

Would you call a major or minor penalty for someone leaving the penalty box at 40 seconds instead of waiting until 60?

It's the exact same effect.
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Offline Major Wood

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Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2009, 10:45:35 pm »
I don't know where you're coming up with 20 seconds.

I agree that it is a minor.
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Offline Rev. Riot

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Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2009, 11:33:02 pm »
The problem is that an NSO shouldn't be making a call regarding penalties. And a referee can only make calls on penalties they SEE. And this is one situation where it's almost always the NSO that sees it.

I'd further argue that since there is an outlined procedure, unless the penalty is started timing, the skater still has the opportunity to complete the procedure legally. Timers should not get into a shouting match, they should simply say "I'm not timing your penalty, you need to enter going skate-wise, and you didn't, you'll need to come around again first" and leave it at that.

And to head the half dozen of you off at the pass who're about to respond to the first part of my post, the penalty timer isn't actually making a call when they tell the head ref that a skater left the box early, they're reporting facts. Fact: she is on the track or on the bench, but she is not in the box. Fact: She still owes 10 seconds of penalty box time. Fact: I did not tell her she could leave. The Head referee, seeing all these facts as they stand, is observing the penalty, and so can make that call.
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Offline Major Wood

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Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2009, 11:35:51 pm »
The problem is that an NSO shouldn't be making a call regarding penalties. And a referee can only make calls on penalties they SEE. And this is one situation where it's almost always the NSO that sees it.

That's what I thought the situation was. Thank you for clarifying.
Your friendly Zebra Huddle admin.

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Offline Darkjester

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Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2009, 03:26:41 am »
At Sunshine Skate we had a "Ref" (not on skates and out of zebra stripes) as well monitoring the Penalty Box. He/She was the one telling skaters who crossed the 'ponr' to skate another lap. If they refused he flagged a Outside Pack Ref, same as if they left early, entered in front of the pack, etc.,

All the Penalty Box Timers said was "You have 10 seconds, stand.. Go".

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Offline the pantichrist

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Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #25 on: March 24, 2009, 03:44:59 pm »
I saw a thread on this somewhere but I can't find it (maybe the WFTDA board, maybe here, maybe yahoo group, not sure)....

PONR line- What happens when a skater passes the line on her way to the box?

Is it a Minor for skating in the wrong direction but she can still sit and time will begin?

Is it no penalty but the skater can't approach from the wrong direction so her time won't start until she makes the lap?

Or something else?

Relevant rules section-

6.4.2 When a skater is sent to the penalty box, she must immediately exit the track and
         skate to the penalty box in the counter-clockwise direction. 
                6.4.2.1 Additional penalties will be assessed if she cuts the track or approaches the
                 penalty box from the wrong direction.


Background- we've had our penalty box in the center until this season.  We're still working out some of the kinks of having the box on the outside.

thank you!

WFTDA Officiating Education Director
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Memphis Roller Derby

Offline Ref Neck

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Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #26 on: March 24, 2009, 04:33:55 pm »
A minor is like 15 seconds in the box (4 minors = 1 major = 1 minute) and it takes about that amount of time (or less really) to skate around the entire outside of the track. I have always tried to encourage skaters to continue in the appropriate direction whenever possible, if not, give an IP minor. Some have said to have the penalty box managers to actually wave off the skater if they have not approached the box from the correct direction, but I think the rules are at odds with this practice since you are told to give "additional penalties".
DC Rollergirls, Head Referee

Offline ttjustice

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Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #27 on: March 24, 2009, 04:54:49 pm »
If we see a skater miss the pass line we will tell her to get out of the box and skate around the track and come back in.  We actually use a separate pass line for each box.  Here is how we set it up.

In our venue we can put the penalty box in the middle of the front straight, between the team benches.  We put the jammer chairs next to the line seperating the boxes (easier for us to see) and we tape "on deck" boxes on the 'midline' as well so that neither team has a distance advantage re-entering thetrack.  The passline for the first box is the 'midline', the second is the outside line of the second box.

                l  BB     J  l J   BB      l
                l              l               l
                l          l-----l            l
                l          l    l   l            l                            <----- direction of skaters approaching the box
                -----------------------
                l              l
                l              l

Sorry for the crappy drawing but I hope it illustrates what I described above ok.

I haven't yet had a skater not get up and go skate another lap and re-enter correctly.  I seem to recall hearing one time at a  ref- captains meeting in the past that it would be called a major if they refused to cooperate so the skaters had better be paying attention.  I can't say how often that is discussed at the meetings- should it be a standard item?

Timothy T. Justice
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Offline Riff Reff

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Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2009, 05:10:20 pm »
Quote
but I think the rules are at odds with this practice since you are told to give "additional penalties".
I totally agree with that.
We had that topic already here and I still think it would be like telling a skater who committed a false start to get back behind the starting line
Don't look at the game with rules-tinted glasses; look at the rules with game-tinted glasses!

Offline the pantichrist

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Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2009, 05:21:32 pm »
Quote
but I think the rules are at odds with this practice since you are told to give "additional penalties".
I totally agree with that.
We had that topic already here and I still think it would be like telling a skater who committed a false start to get back behind the starting line

Dang, how did I miss this?!  I promise that I looked for this thread.  I knew there was a good discussion on this topic.  Sorry for doubling up guys.  Blah...
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