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Author Topic: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)  (Read 34572 times)

Offline Stegoscorus

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Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2009, 06:03:18 pm »
Huh...we always just wave them past and make them come in from the appropriate direction.  I suppose we'd assess a minor IP if they refused and just sat down after passing the line, but Ref Neck makes a good point: it doesn't say to make them do it better, it says to assess penalties.  I'll have to bring this up to my superiors...

For the record, we also use two Point of No Return lines, one for each team's section of the box.  Alternately, some leagues are starting to use a diagonal line.  Talk to Philly and Madison if you're curious about that. 


(P.S. - 4 minors = 1 minute in the box, but 4 minors do not = 1 major!  Get out of here and hang out with the One-Pass old timers ;))
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Offline DayGlo Divine

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Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2009, 06:25:18 pm »
(P.S. - 4 minors = 1 minute in the box, but 4 minors do not = 1 major!  Get out of here and hang out with the One-Pass old timers ;))

Beat me to it. :D
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Opinions expressed here are mine. Not WFTDA's, not Charm City's, and not those of Zebra Huddle as a whole.

Offline Johnny Zebra

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Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2009, 06:32:08 pm »
Huh...we always just wave them past and make them come in from the appropriate direction.  I suppose we'd assess a minor IP if they refused and just sat down after passing the line, but Ref Neck makes a good point: it doesn't say to make them do it better, it says to assess penalties. 

FYI - the thread referenced above makes note of the Best Practices document for Penalty Timers, which states that the PT should not start timing if the skater has entered from the wrong direction. So, pick your flavor.

FYI about the FYI: I've merged these threads, so now all of our PoNR goodness is in one spot.

~j.z.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2009, 06:35:51 pm by Johnny Zebra »
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Offline the pantichrist

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Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2009, 05:09:30 am »
What are common practices concerning leaving the penalty box? 

I'm not asking about 6.4.4 After serving one minute in the penalty box, a penalized skater may re-enter the track.
She must enter the pack from the back.
I'm asking about the approach to the track from the penalty box.

We have the box on the side between the benches, in the straight away between turns 4 and 1.  We used to have the box in the center and we had an exit lane leaving the box to the track. 

When leaving the box can skaters use the ref lane for a time before re-entering the track?  I wanted to use the PoNR line in a similar way as the exit lane we used for the box when we kept the box in the center.

We had a visiting skater from Chicago with us tonight at practice.  I was explaining the PoNR line to the skaters and she agreed with the pass-the-line-do-the-lap policy and she said that's the way she's seen it done any place she's played but upon re-entry they sometimes skate for a good distance in the ref lane and are okay as long as they enter the pack from the back.

This makes more sense to me because that way they wouldn't be trying to enter the track from a dead or almost dead stop.

Is this common and if so how long can they skate in the ref lane before they're violating- 6.2.9 SKATING OUT-OF-BOUNDS Skaters must remain in-bounds. No part of the skater's skate(s) may touch the ground outside the track boundary.?  Or does 6.2.9 even come into play since they haven't yet established any kind of in-bounds position?

« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 09:12:54 pm by the pantichrist »
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Offline Johnny Zebra

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Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2009, 02:55:14 pm »
What are common practices concerning leaving the penalty box? 

 . . .

When leaving the box can skaters use the ref lane for a time before re-entering the track?  I wanted to use the PoNR line in a similar was as the exit lane we used for the box when we kept the box in the center.

 . . .

Is this common and if so how long can they skate in the ref lane before they're violating- 6.2.9 SKATING OUT-OF-BOUNDS Skaters must remain in-bounds. No part of the skater's skate(s) may touch the ground outside the track boundary.?  Or does 6.2.9 even come into play since they haven't yet established any kind of in-bounds position?



Some good discussion of this by Hunter Stompson here:

http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=148.msg3160#msg3160 (and forward)

Short take: they need to exit directly from the penalty box. They can wait at the penalty box, but they cannot skate.

~j.z.
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Offline the pantichrist

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Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #35 on: March 26, 2009, 05:41:15 am »

Some good discussion of this by Hunter Stompson here:

http://www.zebrahuddle.com/index.php?topic=148.msg3160#msg3160 (and forward)

Short take: they need to exit directly from the penalty box. They can wait at the penalty box, but they cannot skate.

~j.z.

Okay, cool.  Stompson seems to know what he's talking about and that falls in line with my original inclination.

Thanks.
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Offline Catch22

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Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2009, 04:09:05 am »
Hey ya!

Can anyone tell me where I can find the penalty awarded for entering the penalty box from the wrong direction (clock-wise)?
I'm aware that there needs to be one handed down as per:

6.4.2.1 Additional penalties will be assessed if she cuts the track or approaches the
penalty box from the wrong direction.


I have searched through the rules to find out if that penalty should be a major or minor but I have not found it thus far..
Anyone care to point me in the right way?

Many thanks!

Offline Major Wood

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Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2009, 04:16:37 am »
If you give a penalty for this, it would be an illegal procedure. An illegal procedure is an illegal action that does not directly affect another skater.
Many leagues simply have their box timers refuse to time the penalty until the skater does another lap and re-enters properly.
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Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2009, 04:19:21 am »
Probably Illegal Procedure. As she's gaining a advantage from an illegal act.

As to minor vs. Major, most of the time the Penalty Box operator will make her turn around and enter the box from the right direction I'd side with just a minor.

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Offline Catch22

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Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2009, 05:14:55 am »
Thank you!

I figured that it would be an IP but since it wasn't listed under IP penalties, I wondered if I had missed it and it was written somewhere else.

Thanks for your help!
Catch

Offline Conan

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Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2009, 10:23:32 am »
This is a good question.  I just had a discussion with Hannah about this.  Here's an excerpt

Conan: I don't like this idea of making the skaters do another lap if they come to the PB in a clockwise direction.
Hannah: Why not?  Lots of leagues do that.  Most leagues do that.
Conan: I don't see where it's provided in the rules to make up a punishment like that.  You might as well make them do 10 pushups.  It's completely arbitrary.
Hannah: You're being ridiculous.  How do you think it should be done?
Conan: IP major.  Easy.
Hannah: Major? That's pretty harsh.  I could see it as a minor, but who's calling that foul?
Conan: Have the PB guy do it.
talking over each other Hannah: but the PB guy can't call fouls
Conan: shit but that guy can't call a foul
pause
Conan: I love roller derby
Hannah: Me too
« Last Edit: April 25, 2009, 10:25:35 am by Conan »
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Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #41 on: April 25, 2009, 11:17:11 am »
Why major? It takes less than 15 seconds to do a lap around the track which is what a minor equates out to once you get four of them.
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Offline Miss Trie

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Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2009, 03:07:25 pm »
It takes less than 15 seconds to do a lap around the track which is what a minor equates out to once you get four of them.

That is why Dixie makes skaters that pass the point of no return/skate clockwise to the box do another lap before they can sit. We only issue penalties for it in the case of a skater refusing to take another lap. In that rare circumstance,  PB timer tells an outside pack ref that skater XXX didn't take another lap and the OP ref gives her a major illegal procedure, tells the PB timer to time her for 2 minutes & passes the penalty off to an outside penalty tracker.
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Offline Johnny Zebra

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Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2009, 03:32:06 pm »
Hey ya!

Can anyone tell me where I can find the penalty awarded for entering the penalty box from the wrong direction (clock-wise)?
I'm aware that there needs to be one handed down as per:

6.4.2.1 Additional penalties will be assessed if she cuts the track or approaches the
penalty box from the wrong direction.


I have searched through the rules to find out if that penalty should be a major or minor but I have not found it thus far..
Anyone care to point me in the right way?

Many thanks!

Hey all -- topic merged to an earlier one that extensively discusses this. See Treble's post that kicks this (now) merged thread off.

~j.z.
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Offline Conan

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Re: Point of No return / Clockwise entering penalty box (merged)
« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2009, 07:41:08 pm »
Why major? It takes less than 15 seconds to do a lap around the track which is what a minor equates out to once you get four of them.
This was a comment that I made within the framework of a discussion that I was having with one of my refs.  We banter back and forth like this quite a bit off the track.  Engaging in hypothetical discussion in the hopes of finding Reasonable solutions that jive with the rules. As you can see from the excerpt of the discussion, the comment I made about it being grounds for a major went no where. 

I'd be surprised if lots of refs didn't engage in this kind of talk. 
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