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Author Topic: Jammer blocked inside, falls, slides back in : Cutting  (Read 6809 times)

Offline Cliquework

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Jammer blocked inside, falls, slides back in : Cutting
« on: February 27, 2009, 05:58:45 pm »
Here's a situation I've ran into a few times, and while I know how it's to be called and I will do so, I just wanted to hear some others thoughts on it and if in the future you feel it warrants an ammendment. More of a "how do you feel about it" discussion. First, the situation:

Jammer is moving fast down the straight, entering the pack (or in pack - doesn't matter).

As she enters the turn, she's blocked legally and sent out of bounds to the inside of the track and falls in the process.....

....as she's sliding in her "fall small" position, her speed and trajectory carry her back in bounds and in front of an opposing blocker. She has not attempted to stand or regain control yet. Just slid back in while down, slicing across the corner of a turn (and trying real hard, incidentally, to grab the ground to not go back in bounds - nail marks).


In this instance it is of course a cutting the track penalty, and Major or Minor depending on where she re-entered with regards to opposing blockers, as the cutting rules do not delineate between whether or not a skater is vertical or not, just any part of the returning skaters body. It a definite Cut the Track.....

My only concern is that if the, in this case jammer, is down, out of play, can't be engaged, and can't engage another player, do you feel she should be subject to cutting the track? Should her relative position only be assessed once she regains control / verticality and resumes skating. IE: if she stands before her relative position catches up to her (her spot in the pack) - penalty. If she waits for the pack to pass (or merely her relative original position) before regaining composure - no penalty.

Again, I know what will be called and should be called according to the rules to date. I'd just like to see discussion concerning this and what you think is fair or not. Especially with regards to the potion of the cutting rule that states:

6.2.10.1 A skater cutting around a downed or out-of-bounds player is not bettering her position.

So if a skater cutting around a downed player recieves no penalty, do you feel the inverse could not be true. If the opposing player who was down does not count towards the cutting the track penalty, should a "downed cutter" count towards a track cutting penalty, especially if waiting and not bettering her position?

Discuss.....
Demolition City Roller Derby Head Ref
Evansville, IN
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Offline L8R SK8R

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Re: Jammer blocked inside, falls, slides back in : Cutting
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2009, 06:11:16 pm »
I think it sucks for the jammer, but its a great move for the blocker who blocked the jammer.

Offline Johnny Zebra

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Re: Jammer blocked inside, falls, slides back in : Cutting
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2009, 06:32:10 pm »
There are many skaters and refs who hope to see this changed in the next ruleset. Stay tuned.

~j.z.
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Online Major Wood

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Re: Jammer blocked inside, falls, slides back in : Cutting
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2009, 07:41:05 pm »
I happen to be one of the very small handful of refs that loves the track cutting rules as they stand.
This is something that so many skaters and refs hate that I highly doubt that it will remain the way it is now.
Your friendly Zebra Huddle admin.

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I speak only of my opinions and interpretations.

Offline Riff Reff

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Re: Jammer blocked inside, falls, slides back in : Cutting
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2009, 07:57:00 pm »
I am torn... the way it is now, it's clear and easy. it sounds fair to exclude a player who is down on the one hand, but where do you draw the line? A skater who is pushed into an opponent committing a back block? One could say "C'mon, it's not her fault, she could not prevent it".

In my humble opinion, in the end it comes down to this: What is best for the game? Keeping it simple (if any bodypart reenters - penalty) or trying to avoid such "injustices" by creating exceptions (it doesn't count, if she's down)? Probably something in between!? (Something here makes me feel like sneaking around Pandora's box...)

« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 10:17:37 pm by Riff Reff »
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Offline L8R SK8R

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Re: Jammer blocked inside, falls, slides back in : Cutting
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2009, 07:59:46 pm »
I could understand rewriting it to say something like, any part of a skater's skate that reenters the track, but not any part of the skater as it currently is. But I have no issue with how the rules is currently written. As I've mentioned, its good for the blocker.

Offline Cliquework

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Re: Jammer blocked inside, falls, slides back in : Cutting
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2009, 08:45:10 pm »
For certain it is definitely simpler as it is. It would certainly be much tougher, even more so in a congested / fast pack, to keep your eyes on the skater exiting and the pack itself including exiting skaters relative position, determine when she's under control and in play again, and whether or not she did so with regards to her relative position as it catches back up to her. I just went crosseyed typing it. It's doable, just much tougher. Sometimes it's clear (as I've seen it more than once), sometimes it could get dicey to determine exactly, what with pack shuffling.

...and besides, it's a risk vs. reward system when trying to pass on that inside line. I suppose it's best if we (and by we I mean they) live with it.

As to it's overall fairness.....well, I suppose it's why I brought it up.


And to Riff. It's my understanding that you'll find Pandora's Box currently empty. A nice quiet, cozy place to visit. It's prior residents moved on.......some of which I have no doubt strapped on skates.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 08:47:44 pm by Cliquework »
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Offline Crotch Rock-It

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Re: Jammer blocked inside, falls, slides back in : Cutting
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2009, 10:00:41 pm »
What a coincidence.  I had the exact same situation happen to me in practice a few days ago.  The blocked jammer cut in front of the pack on her knees, so I gave her a major.  She and a few other skaters took issue with the fairness of the call, since the jammer couldn't help that she was blocked so hard that she lost control and cut the track.  I explained that it's one of those rules where it just sucks for the jammer (or whoever got blocked), but that it can be an advantage if you're the one doing the blocking.

One of the skaters asked me to post this very question on here to verify the rule, but I was 99% sure I made the right call, so I didn't.  However, it's nice to see that I was right.   :)

Offline ttjustice

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Re: Jammer blocked inside, falls, slides back in : Cutting
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2009, 01:40:30 am »
Yeah I totally feel for the jammer that happens to, but I am also all about keeping things simple.  Exceptions seem to add loopholes and complexity leads to more instances of referee discretion, of which we had more in previous versions of the rules.  IMHO, the lack of consistent calls that resulted from different interpretations lead to confusion and a bit of anger from the players who then ratified a more cut and dried ruleset.  Things happen so quickly anyway I would hate to have to run through a million and one scenerios in my head based on "this or that exception".

Thats just the opinion of a simple minded guy like me ;)
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Offline Rev. Riot

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Re: Jammer blocked inside, falls, slides back in : Cutting
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2009, 09:36:43 pm »
It's totally justified. Remember that we try not to judge intent, we judge impact on the game, we judge the advantage gained or able to be gained. A skater (regardless of position) sliding in in front of other people she was behind is now blocking those people, and they're only able to do that because they went out of bounds and then came back in illegally. It doesn't matter if they meant to block them or take that advantage, they've done it, and we need to even that out. So yeah, penalty, and earned.
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