intruder

Menu

ZH Classifieds
ZH Files
ZH Staff
WFTDA 12/1/2014 Rules
WFTDA 3/1/2014 Rules

Donate

Please Support Zebra Huddle!

Recent Posts

Re: Jammer's time in penalty box by 3Beers
April 26, 2020, 09:46:33 pm

Getting officials attention by Rego_Derby
March 03, 2020, 04:05:02 am

Re: Jammer's time in penalty box by Major Wood
February 05, 2020, 05:52:31 pm

Jammer's time in penalty box by 3Beers
January 29, 2020, 03:33:20 am

Nashville Roller Derby 2020 Scrimmage-A-Thon - 7/11/2020 by Major Wood
January 27, 2020, 09:36:38 pm

Re: Rule clarification by 3Beers
January 26, 2020, 08:09:00 pm

Re: Rule clarification by Bluebeard
January 17, 2020, 05:26:46 am

Rule clarification by 3Beers
December 28, 2019, 06:04:00 pm

Re: Resources for new referees. by Destructor
November 29, 2019, 01:13:40 pm

Resources for new referees. by Destructor
November 26, 2019, 06:01:48 pm

Author Topic: WFTDA Ruleset 3.1: 6.1.2 Penalties in General  (Read 7635 times)

Offline Jessticular Fortitude

  • Referee
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 798
  • Stats Sheet: 27
  • SOLID
  • League Affiliation: Nashville Rollergirls
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 2
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
WFTDA Ruleset 3.1: 6.1.2 Penalties in General
« on: January 13, 2009, 04:42:36 am »
6.1.2 Skaters and teams are assessed penalties due to infractions that are considered illegal. Penalties will be assessed for an attempt to commit a major illegal action, whether or not the action was successful.



OK. In the majority of the Rules, penalties are given based on the outcome of an illegal action. Just doing something illegal, for the most part, does not automatically equal a minor or major penalty.

Why then does 6.1.2 make it sound like you can get a penalty without actually committing an illegal action? Just trying to do something illegal is enough. Many referees are taught that if you didn't see the complete action including the result, you should lessen the penalty or not give one at all. This rule kind of negates that.

I heard an example where if it looks like a skater was attempting (it looked intentional) to trip someone by falling and sticking her leg out, it is an ejectable offense even if nobody was tripped. Is that true? Is this an example of 6.1.2 in action? Are there other scenarios where this rule comes into play?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2009, 04:53:05 am by Jessticular Fortitude »
Hey look, a search function! Right up there! No on the left

Perhaps we should all spend a little more time reading and a little less time making shit up.

Offline Johnny Zebra

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 768
  • Stats Sheet: 40
Re: WFTDA Ruleset 3.1: 6.1.2 Penalties in General
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2009, 05:06:48 am »
Many referees are taught that if you didn't see the complete action, you should lessen the penalty or not give one at all. This rule kind of negates that.

It might be more accurate to say that refs are not supposed to judge intention, and we have the discretionary rules for guidance:

   

This takes care of all the issues of whether or not a ref saw the complete action, or was not 100% sure what happened, or of its severity.

But, there are going to be cases where an illegal action is attempted, and there's no need to judge intention, because it's blatantly obvious. An extreme example: blocker races way ahead of a jammer, turns around, and tries to slide tackle her clockwise from the front. She misses. She still gets penalized, or more.

I'm sure someone else can think of a better example -- I'm tired . . .

~j.z.
===============
Johnny Zebra
WFTDA Certified Referee (Level 3)
WFTDA Rules Q&A Working Group
Gotham Girls Roller Derby
Zebra Huddle Moderator

Offline Major Wood

  • Administrator
  • Has Too Much Damn Time Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2665
  • Stats Sheet: 77
  • League Affiliation: Nashville Rollergirls
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 5
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: WFTDA Ruleset 3.1: 6.1.2 Penalties in General
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2009, 05:15:40 am »
Right, but the intent of the rules would say to judge based on impact (impact being laid out with no impact/minor/major guidelines for the various penalties). If the attempt was unsuccessful, there was no impact. How can a penalty be assessed for an action with no measurable consequence?
Your friendly Zebra Huddle admin.

Nashville Roller Derby Head Ref
WFTDA Level 5 Certified Referee

I speak only of my opinions and interpretations.

Offline Johnny Zebra

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 768
  • Stats Sheet: 40
Re: WFTDA Ruleset 3.1: 6.1.2 Penalties in General
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2009, 05:43:51 am »
Right, but the intent of the rules would say to judge based on impact (impact being laid out with no impact/minor/major guidelines for the various penalties).

Right! Hence 6.1.2.

I think the effect of the rule is to add coverage for blatant attempts to perform illegal actions, where intention is not in question, regardless of what the impact is. I see it as an addendum to the general guidelines of impact, not a contradiction.

It's also for that reason not a rule you see very often in effect. But it's there if it's needed.

~j.z.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2009, 06:07:39 am by Johnny Zebra »
===============
Johnny Zebra
WFTDA Certified Referee (Level 3)
WFTDA Rules Q&A Working Group
Gotham Girls Roller Derby
Zebra Huddle Moderator

Offline L8R SK8R

  • Restricted User
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 521
  • Stats Sheet: -13
Re: WFTDA Ruleset 3.1: 6.1.2 Penalties in General
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2009, 12:43:12 pm »
If one girl tries to punch another in the face, but the other girl ducks, I'm gonna eject the puncher for fighting, even though no contact was made.

Offline Darkjester

  • Has Too Much Damn Time Member
  • ********************
  • Posts: 3067
  • Stats Sheet: 39
  • "When in doubt, RTFM"
  • League Affiliation: Beach Brawl SK8R Dolls
  • Referee Certification Level: Not Certified
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: WFTDA Ruleset 3.1: 6.1.2 Penalties in General
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2009, 01:19:00 pm »
I think that is a good summation of that L8r.  In the words of the Supreme Court "I know it when I see it"

I think whats meant by the 'instantly ejectable even if no contact is made" rule is in regards to obvious attempts at an illegal action that is intended on injuring someone. ie. the slide tackle 'fall/trip', a swinging elbow at the head that the intended victim ducks, etc.,

Madness Tolls
69¢
Beach Brawl Sk8R Dolls
Fort Walton Beach FL

Offline Professor Murder

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 456
  • Stats Sheet: 42
  • Insert Witticism Here.
Re: WFTDA Ruleset 3.1: 6.1.2 Penalties in General
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2009, 02:07:43 pm »
The section preceding 6.2 is just a "preamble" to the meat of the penalties.  It's not at all carte blanche to make up penalties as you see fit, it's just a definition and boundary marker for what penalties are and how they're enforced.

"infractions that are considered illegal" are covered, in whole, by the following subsections in section 6.

Let's not overthink this.

Throwing a punch and missing is covered under fighting already.
« Last Edit: January 13, 2009, 02:10:50 pm by Professor Murder »
Philly Roller Girls
WFTDA Interim Games Officer
WFTDA Certified Referee: Level 5
"100% Less Dancing" - Dr. Vroom

Offline L8R SK8R

  • Restricted User
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 521
  • Stats Sheet: -13
Re: WFTDA Ruleset 3.1: 6.1.2 Penalties in General
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2009, 02:22:55 pm »
The rules as a whole must be followed. 6.1.2 is just as important a rule as 6.2.3.8 (random quote). Just because one outlines what the specific penalty is doesn't mean the other explanation can be ignored. It seems the intent behind 6.1.2 (and I am only guessing here) is to make sure that skaters get penalized for unsafe actions that could have resulted in injury, or affecting the game, if they hadn't failed to make contact.

Offline Jessticular Fortitude

  • Referee
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 798
  • Stats Sheet: 27
  • SOLID
  • League Affiliation: Nashville Rollergirls
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 2
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: WFTDA Ruleset 3.1: 6.1.2 Penalties in General
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2009, 02:23:54 pm »
Got it. It makes SO much more sense now. Thanks!  :-*
Hey look, a search function! Right up there! No on the left

Perhaps we should all spend a little more time reading and a little less time making shit up.

Offline Stegoscorus

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 773
  • Stats Sheet: 51
  • STOP. Collaborate, and listen.
  • League Affiliation: Rose City Rollers
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 3
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: WFTDA Ruleset 3.1: 6.1.2 Penalties in General
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2009, 09:59:57 pm »
It's been pretty well covered, but I wanted to say, even if there is no actual impact, the potential for danger justifies the use of 6.1.2.  I think the only time I've seen this used is the flagrant tripping example - a skater has flung herself at or in front of other skaters in an obvious attempt to floor them.  Whether or not she is successful, we've agreed to call it major tripping based on the majorly unsafe effect it COULD have, and our commitment to maintaining safety of game play. 
WFTDA Certified Referee - Level 3
Founding Member, ARROW
Portland, OR, U.S.A.

Offline Major Wood

  • Administrator
  • Has Too Much Damn Time Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2665
  • Stats Sheet: 77
  • League Affiliation: Nashville Rollergirls
  • Referee Certification Level: Level 5
  • NSO Certification Level: Not Certified
Re: WFTDA Ruleset 3.1: 6.1.2 Penalties in General
« Reply #10 on: January 13, 2009, 10:55:01 pm »
It's been pretty well covered, but I wanted to say, even if there is no actual impact, the potential for danger justifies the use of 6.1.2.  I think the only time I've seen this used is the flagrant tripping example - a skater has flung herself at or in front of other skaters in an obvious attempt to floor them.  Whether or not she is successful, we've agreed to call it major tripping based on the majorly unsafe effect it COULD have, and our commitment to maintaining safety of game play. 

Not really related, but this is the reason that we also have 6.2.14.15 (Penalties.Fighting under expulsion or suspension):
Serious physical violence or any action deemed by the officials to cause an extraordinary physical threat.

We must all remember that our job is not only to officiate the game, but to protect the safety of the skaters to the best of our ability.
Your friendly Zebra Huddle admin.

Nashville Roller Derby Head Ref
WFTDA Level 5 Certified Referee

I speak only of my opinions and interpretations.

Offline L8R SK8R

  • Restricted User
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 521
  • Stats Sheet: -13
Re: WFTDA Ruleset 3.1: 6.1.2 Penalties in General
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2009, 02:47:04 pm »
Agreed

Offline grumpy old man

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
  • Stats Sheet: 0
Re: WFTDA Ruleset 3.1: 6.1.2 Penalties in General
« Reply #12 on: January 18, 2009, 03:14:28 am »
Again we are in the position to change the outcome of a game. So we have to be have to be so careful on our calls.

Grumpy
Grumpy Old Man
Charlotte Rollergirls

 

Featured Product

 

Zebra Huddle Head Referee Bout Booklet

 

Featured Classifieds


ZH Files

How to Score a Point in Roller Derby
Rating: *****
Downloads: 4410
Views: 7368
Filesize: 327.61KB
Date: January 17, 2017, 04:21:03 am
Comments (0)
By: AdamSmasher
June 2013 Ruleset situational questions
Rating: *****
Downloads: 2918
Views: 5993
Filesize: 29.71KB
Date: February 07, 2014, 04:57:32 pm
Comments (2)
By: Crash Test Ref
Rules Q&A and Publications for 6/15/13 Document
Rating: (None)
Downloads: 3119
Views: 6885
Filesize: 26.27KB
Date: August 02, 2013, 04:10:40 pm
Comments (0)
By: Shaun Ketterman
Rules Q&A and Publications for 1/1/13 Document (4/24/13 Updates)
Rating: *****
Downloads: 3943
Views: 8916
Filesize: 28.07KB
Date: April 25, 2013, 05:45:34 pm
Comments (0)
By: Shaun Ketterman

Powered by EzPortal