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Author Topic: false start strategy and ref perception  (Read 26750 times)

Offline PackMan

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Re: false start strategy and ref perception
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2011, 06:51:36 pm »
[rule]4.2.1Prior to the start of a jam, all skaters must be in position with the Blockers in front of the Jammers.[/rule]

So long as they both start on the track, until a jammer passes a blocker, the blocker is in front of that jammer.  The track is circular and viewed through the understanding of CCW travel.  It does not matter where (ie: how far in front) the blocker is, she is still in front until passed in a CCW direction.

Offline The Gorram Reaver

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Re: false start strategy and ref perception
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2011, 09:17:16 pm »
Since the Jammers must pass all of the blockers on the track to complete their initial pass,

Jammers complete their initial pass when they have exited the forward edge of the Engagement Zone (are positioned more than 20' in front of the foremost member of the pack) regardless of how many skaters have or have not been passed. 
[rule]3.4.2.3  Once the Jammer has cleared the pack by twenty (20) feet, she is no longer eligible to re-pass. If she has not passed all of the players on both teams legally and in bounds, she will be declared NOT Lead Jammer at this point.[/rule]
The only requirement for passing Blockers in relation to the initial pass is in order to earn Lead Jammer status, and only Blockers who are within or behind the Engagement Zone must be passed unless there is a No Pack scenario (then, and only then, must all Blockers be passed).
[rule]3.4.1.3  Jammers do not need to pass Blockers ahead of the legal Engagement Zone in order to become Lead Jammer.[/rule]
[rule]3.4.1.4  During a no pack situation (per Section 4.1.2), the Jammer must pass all Blockers to become Lead Jammer.[/rule]

If the skaters who line up behind the Jammer are in fact way in front of the pack, and they remain stationary at their position waiting for the pack to catch up to them, the Jammer will not be obligated to pass them unless the front of the Engagement Zone reaches those stationary false starting players before Lead Jammer status is earned, or unless there is a No Pack situation that persists until the Jammer has passed those stationary false starting players.
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Offline Celtic Raider

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Re: false start strategy and ref perception
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2011, 04:31:56 am »
Right, but how about for Lead Jammer (which is what I was thinking of originally but forgot it was only for LJ)

[rule]3.4.1.4
During a no pack situation (per Section 4.1.2), the Jammer must pass all Blockers to become Lead Jammer.[/rule]

Would you consider the Jammer who passes the other team first Lead Jammer, or does she have to pass the players behind them as well?

Offline The Gorram Reaver

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Re: false start strategy and ref perception
« Reply #18 on: April 07, 2011, 04:47:45 am »
Right, but how about for Lead Jammer (which is what I was thinking of originally but forgot it was only for LJ)

[rule]3.4.1.4
During a no pack situation (per Section 4.1.2), the Jammer must pass all Blockers to become Lead Jammer.[/rule]

Would you consider the Jammer who passes the other team first Lead Jammer, or does she have to pass the players behind them as well?

"... must pass all Blockers to become Lead Jammer."

All Blockers means all Blockers, not all opposing Blockers.
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Offline Celtic Raider

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Re: false start strategy and ref perception
« Reply #19 on: April 07, 2011, 02:36:30 pm »

"... must pass all Blockers to become Lead Jammer."

All Blockers means all Blockers, not all opposing Blockers.

Exactly, so are the blockers ahead or behind to award lead Jammer?  That's the discussion right now, where are the blockers behind the Jammers when the Jam whistle blows, behind the pack or ahead of the pack?  If you say they are ahead of the pack, then you can only award lead Jammer once they pass all the blockers on the track (or the pack once it's reformed, whatever comes first), or they are behind the pack and the Jammer need to repass them or are they considered passed.

At least that's how I'm seeing the discussion going.

Offline CreepNugget

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Re: false start strategy and ref perception
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2011, 03:38:01 pm »
I believe they are ahead of the pack and in that case have the potential to not be in the engagement zone durg the initial pass(since they should be waiting to reform with the pack).

3.4.1.3 Jammers do not need to pass Blockers ahead of the legal Engagement Zone in order to become Lead Jammer.

If that is the case, once the Jammer clears the engagement zone, Lead Jammer can be awarded, even though there are blockers she has not passed.

Offline Celtic Raider

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Re: false start strategy and ref perception
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2011, 03:51:26 pm »
But with no pack, there is no engagement zone correct?

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Re: false start strategy and ref perception
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2011, 04:33:05 pm »
But with no pack, there is no engagement zone correct?

Correct.

If you say they are ahead of the pack, then you can only award lead Jammer once they pass all the blockers on the track (or the pack once it's reformed, whatever comes first), or they are behind the pack and the Jammer need to repass them or are they considered passed.
In my interpretation (i.e. this is is based in no way on any statements from Rules Comm or from discussions that have been conducted on ZH or elsewhere, but merely my interpretation of the written rules):

If "all" means "all" why does it matter if a Blocker was ahead of or behind the Jammer when the jam started.  If the Jammer did not physically pass that Blocker she did not pass that Blocker and is therefor not eligible to earn Lead Jammer status until she does so unless there is a pack and that Blocker is ahead of the Engagement Zone.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 05:09:47 pm by The Gorram Reaver »
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Re: false start strategy and ref perception
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2011, 05:31:10 pm »
I have an Official WFTDA Rules Committee answer for your question :

[rule]A blocker who is on the track in front of the pivot line, but behind the jammer line has false started and must yield to the pack by allowing it to catch up to or pass them before skating forwards.  The skater may chose to speed up their yield by skating clockwise to rejoin the back of the pack, but is not required to skate clockwise to complete the yield.  Failing to yield to the pack will result in a false start major penalty.  Officially.  There is no other penalty applied because they are either patiently waiting for the pack to catch and pass them (also satisfying the requirements for returning to play), or they have skated forward and received a major false start and should be signaled to the box.[/rule]

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Re: false start strategy and ref perception
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2011, 06:34:51 pm »
[rule]A blocker who is on the track in front of the pivot line, but behind the jammer line has false started and must yield to the pack by allowing it to catch up to or pass them before skating forwards.  The skater may chose to speed up their yield by skating clockwise to rejoin the back of the pack, but is not required to skate clockwise to complete the yield.  Failing to yield to the pack will result in a false start major penalty.  Officially.  There is no other penalty applied because they are either patiently waiting for the pack to catch and pass them (also satisfying the requirements for returning to play), or they have skated forward and received a major false start and should be signaled to the box.[/rule]
[/quote]

Bold is mine.

So she's ahead of the pack and must wait or skate to get to the pack but rejoin behind them?  Am I nitpicking now cuz that confuses me a little.  But overall, I get the gist of what is being said.

Offline JoeXCore

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Re: false start strategy and ref perception
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2011, 06:41:16 pm »
[rule]A blocker who is on the track in front of the pivot line, but behind the jammer line has false started and must yield to the pack by allowing it to catch up to or pass them before skating forwards.  The skater may chose to speed up their yield by skating clockwise to rejoin the back of the pack, but is not required to skate clockwise to complete the yield.  Failing to yield to the pack will result in a false start major penalty.  Officially.  There is no other penalty applied because they are either patiently waiting for the pack to catch and pass them (also satisfying the requirements for returning to play), or they have skated forward and received a major false start and should be signaled to the box.[/rule]


Bold is mine.

So she's ahead of the pack and must wait or skate to get to the pack but rejoin behind them?  Am I nitpicking now cuz that confuses me a little.  But overall, I get the gist of what is being said.



Just like every other false start... they must wait for the others to pass them (or not wait.. and get behind the skaters one against which they have false started)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2011, 06:44:20 pm by JoeXCore »
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Offline Celtic Raider

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Re: false start strategy and ref perception
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2011, 07:41:27 pm »
Thanks Joe, I'm good now.

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Re: false start strategy and ref perception
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2011, 11:56:05 pm »
Thanks Seer for the Official Ruling!

OK, so now that we've got that out of the way.


Jammer 1 Skates Clockwise behind the False starting Blockers, turns around and then begins her CCW pass. 

Jammer 2 Skates CCW at the No Pack Whistle.

If Jammer 1 Passes the CCW skating skaters (non-False starting) before Jammer 2 Passes the False starting skaters.. Jammer 1 would be lead by virtue of having passed all Blockers?

Or would whoever passed them 'in order' on the track first be Lead Jammer?
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Offline mick hawkins

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Re: false start strategy and ref perception
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2011, 01:19:00 am »
I have an Official WFTDA Rules Committee answer for your question :

[rule]A blocker who is on the track in front of the pivot line, but behind the jammer line has false started and must yield to the pack by allowing it to catch up to or pass them before skating forwards.  The skater may chose to speed up their yield by skating clockwise to rejoin the back of the pack, but is not required to skate clockwise to complete the yield.  Failing to yield to the pack will result in a false start major penalty.  Officially.  There is no other penalty applied because they are either patiently waiting for the pack to catch and pass them (also satisfying the requirements for returning to play), or they have skated forward and received a major false start and should be signaled to the box.[/rule]

That's great. thanks


Just so I'm clear...

That we require her to "wait patiently to return to play" confuses me somewhat.
I also find it a little confusing that a blocker who starts immediately ahead of the pivot line is required to yield and be passed by the pack - ending up at the rear of the pack. Yet a blocker who's immediately behind the jammer line and already behind the pack has to wait to be lapped by the pack until she's again behind the pack.

Q. I'm taking this to mean that "yielding" has nothing to do with position relative to other skaters... but is about being passed? Is that right?


It's very possible for a blocker who's immediately behind the jammer line at the start whistle to already be part of the pack.
Is this clarification requiring her to stand still while the rest of the pack moves away, become OOP, and then rejoin the pack from the front?

Q. I know that clarifications don't change the rules - so do 6.10.11, 6.10.17 and 6.10.15 not apply in this situation? Is that what "There is no other penalty applied" is saying?
(That we're not supposed to call OOP penalties and IP penalties on this skater)


How does this affect getting lead?
In previous discussions it was answered that a blocker standing behind the jammer line and jammers at the start of the jam (but didnt earn her 4th minor) had to be passed by the opposing jammer for the jammer to earn lead.

Q. Does this clarification mean that - because the blocker isn't considered behind the pack - the jammer cannot simply reposition herself behind the blocker to earn a legal pass?

Does the jammer need to go through the pack, then pass the "waiting patiently" blocker?
If the "waiting patiently" blocker is OOP by the time the jammer has passed all other blockers... the jammer presumably gets lead... even though the blocker might have been part of the pack initially she's required to go OOP?

...

It looks like this clarification has just opened the way for the powerjam situation described in the intial post - where an entire team stands behind the jammer line (imagine a team with only one blocker on the track), all get minors and their jammer easily gets lead and races around while her blockers wait patiently for their opponents to catch up and reform a pack.
I can actually picture it happening in the last jams of a tight game.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2011, 01:48:06 am by mick hawkins »
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Offline Cliquework

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Re: false start strategy and ref perception
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2011, 01:58:16 am »
Quote
Q. I'm taking this to mean that "yielding" has nothing to do with position relative to other skaters... but is about being passed? Is that right?

It is still relative to other skaters.


Quote
It's very possible for a blocker who's immediately behind the jammer line at the start whistle to already be part of the pack.
Is this clarification requiring her to stand still while the rest of the pack moves away, become OOP, and then rejoin the pack from the front?

The clarification defines a skater behind the jammer line to be way in front. They cannot be bridged to the pack in the rear. They are way in front, not behind. 20+ AHEAD of the engagement zone. That should be all you need to figure out how to handle lead as well, both if they're still ahead, or once again return to the engagement zone before the jammer completes her initial pass.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2011, 02:02:31 am by Cliquework »
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