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Author Topic: false start strategy and ref perception  (Read 26755 times)

Offline Pol E. Dangerous

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Re: false start strategy and ref perception
« Reply #60 on: May 13, 2011, 03:28:55 pm »
If Team B/Red team were to skate clockwise, wouldn't they be getting failure to reform penalties?  Since the other team is WAY ahead, they would have to skate counter-clockwise.  The moment they skated clockwise, they would be traveling further away from the other team, and thus, failing to reform.

I would hope this wouldn't be coaching, but when they skated clockwise, maybe give them another warning?  Only verbal cue that comes close to being appropriate would be "Out of Play".
Carolina Rollergirls
Level 2 Certified Referee

Offline Brad Religion

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Re: false start strategy and ref perception
« Reply #61 on: May 13, 2011, 03:48:25 pm »
Well. If there was never a pack to begin with, can one re-enter in the opposite way they left it? I have to be honest, I've gotten headaches every time I've thought about these scenarios. I don't expect this to change any time soon.
Bleeding Heartland Roller Girls
Bloomington, IN

Offline Major Wood

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Re: false start strategy and ref perception
« Reply #62 on: May 13, 2011, 05:14:45 pm »
If Team B/Red team were to skate clockwise, wouldn't they be getting failure to reform penalties?  Since the other team is WAY ahead, they would have to skate counter-clockwise.  The moment they skated clockwise, they would be traveling further away from the other team, and thus, failing to reform.

I would hope this wouldn't be coaching, but when they skated clockwise, maybe give them another warning?  Only verbal cue that comes close to being appropriate would be "Out of Play".


My thought is no, they shouldn't get failure to reform penalties, because they ARE attempting to reform.
The other part of your question hinges on something that I've been trying to figure out; If the front group comes within 10 feet of the rear group, is there now a pack? My thought on this is that there is a pack. So no need to give further warnings, and a confusing situation got much less confusing.

Your friendly Zebra Huddle admin.

Nashville Roller Derby Head Ref
WFTDA Level 5 Certified Referee

I speak only of my opinions and interpretations.

Offline The Gorram Reaver

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Re: false start strategy and ref perception
« Reply #63 on: May 13, 2011, 06:59:27 pm »
The clarifications/statements from Rules seems to indicate that even if Blockers lined up in front of the Jammer Line are within 10' of Blockers behind the Jammer Line, they are in fact not 10' in front of the false starting Blockers but really more like 100' behind them.  So the only way to form/reform a pack is for the skaters who did not false start to skate counter clockwise, and for the skaters who did false start to remain stationary or skate clockwise (if they so choose) until the non-false starting Blockers have overtaken the false starting Blockers, thus completing the process of the false starting Blockers yielding to those who started legally.

Yeah, it breaks the head a little.  But some times we have to stop thinking of the track as a continuous loop & assign it finite starting/ending points.
The Gorram Reaver
Mad Rollin' Dolls, Madison, WI

Offline Major Wood

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Re: false start strategy and ref perception
« Reply #64 on: May 13, 2011, 07:10:53 pm »
True, it does say they need to wait for the others to come around to them.
This is a slightly different scenario where, because they are behind the jammer line, there is no pack. I don't know that all the logic in that clarification applies because the no pack scenario introduces a lot of other variables.
Your friendly Zebra Huddle admin.

Nashville Roller Derby Head Ref
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Offline JoeXCore

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Re: false start strategy and ref perception
« Reply #65 on: May 13, 2011, 08:18:24 pm »
True, it does say they need to wait for the others to come around to them.
This is a slightly different scenario where, because they are behind the jammer line, there is no pack. I don't know that all the logic in that clarification applies because the no pack scenario introduces a lot of other variables.


If those in front are allowed to skate back and form a pack without receiving a penalty then the pack will then be forced to be destroyed again. Seeing as those in the rear are disallowed to skate forward without receiving false start majors. So either those in front must at that point skate forward and destroy the pack... or the game will be forced to happen without the pack ever moving in derby direction.
Black n Bluegrass Roller Girls - head referee
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Offline JoeXCore

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Re: false start strategy and ref perception
« Reply #66 on: May 13, 2011, 08:27:08 pm »
Following your logic a different direction.

If the 2 teams are devided by color across the jammer line (less than 10') we call a no pack, then the pack is immediately (already )reformed.
The false starts are only minors because the front blockers are not skating CCW to accept the yield.



The question is how far does the "behind is in front" really go.
Black n Bluegrass Roller Girls - head referee
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Offline Major Wood

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Re: false start strategy and ref perception
« Reply #67 on: May 13, 2011, 08:40:35 pm »
If they could reform by skating clockwise to the jammer line, then your situation wouldn't happen. That would mean that there would be a pack, but the pack is "straddling" the jammer line with the rear group having false started. This results in a mess.

The more I think about this scenario, the more I don't like any solution.
I have sent this on up to see if I can get something solid on it.
Your friendly Zebra Huddle admin.

Nashville Roller Derby Head Ref
WFTDA Level 5 Certified Referee

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Offline JoeXCore

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Re: false start strategy and ref perception
« Reply #68 on: May 13, 2011, 08:46:44 pm »
If they could reform by skating clockwise to the jammer line, then your situation wouldn't happen. That would mean that there would be a pack, but the pack is "straddling" the jammer line with the rear group having false started. This results in a mess.

The more I think about this scenario, the more I don't like any solution.
I have sent this on up to see if I can get something solid on it.


Well the last solution I suggested would leave it true that AT THE WHISTLE behind is in front... but then after the whistle... reality would take over.
Black n Bluegrass Roller Girls - head referee
MRDA Recognized Refree

Offline HIM-roid

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Re: false start strategy and ref perception
« Reply #69 on: May 13, 2011, 11:31:15 pm »
And then you would have the lead jammer status in question as well. Is it the first jammer to pass the team lined up legally or the first jammer to pass the illegally formed pack? Have to keep consistency in my opinion. If anyone outside of the pivot and jammer lines (the 30' in between) are in front of the pack, then everything should be called the same way.
HIM-roid
WFTDA Apprentice Officials Area Coordinator
Head of Officiating
Mississippi Rollergirls
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Offline ChopStewie

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Re: false start strategy and ref perception
« Reply #70 on: May 13, 2011, 11:31:28 pm »
So y'all know...

Due to this particular thread, when the coach was discussing a new strategy at last practice that had players near the jammer line, I was a jammer line nazi: "Don't let any part of your wheel, skate, sock, NOTHING cross that line."    :P
-- You know, that man wasn't really on fire.

 

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