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Author Topic: 6 point pass for an extra blocker or points in error?  (Read 13044 times)

Offline Bishop

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Re: 6 point pass for an extra blocker or points in error?
« Reply #15 on: April 21, 2011, 01:51:41 pm »
When I head referee, one of the things I always do is count the players on the track and in the box before every jam.  Make it a habit!
Indeed.

... And the citation Shaun referenced is not specific to pack referees either.  Jammer referees need to be aware of this too.  I acknowledge that it was my error as well.  As mentioned, I'm not exactly sure how it played out and my view was obstructed [excuses excuses!].  I'll have to check the helmet cam on this one and see where things went wrong and how it can be avoided in the future. 

« Last Edit: April 21, 2011, 01:54:02 pm by Bishop »
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Offline HIM-roid

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Re: 6 point pass for an extra blocker or points in error?
« Reply #16 on: April 22, 2011, 04:04:46 am »
Thanks Shaun, I overlooked that. To Bishop, we are all human and make mistakes. As long as both teams were fine with the call, all i could do in that situation is apologize to both teams and ensure them that this won't be missed again. Especially if that extra point determined the game.
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Offline Ammosurf

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Re: 6 point pass for an extra blocker or points in error?
« Reply #17 on: May 04, 2011, 09:11:04 pm »
I'm new to derby and the computer I'm currently on doesn't have Adobe, so I can't look it up in the rules myself. The thing I don't understand is, as soon as it was realized that there were 5 opposing blockers on the track, either during the jam or after the jam concluded, why could the jam not been either blown off and deemed null and void or just deemed null and void all together. It seems like when there are too many players on the field in the NFL, the play is cancelled(even during) and a penalty is issued to the offending team(maybe an IP in derby?) Now if the defending team is the one who commits the penalty, then the team on offense has a chance to waive it according to the advantages yielded, but it seems like awarding the time back onto the clock and resetting the jam(minus the penalized blocker if it was a 4th minor) would make the most sense. To me, the Head Ref would award the minor to the nearest blocker of the offending team. If that player had 3 already, then she would start the jam in the box upon reset and only 3 of her team mates would line up as blockers behind the pivot line. If she had 2 or less prior to being awarded the minor IP, she could line up with her 3 team mates behind the pivot line, or she could be substituted as she would in between any other normal jam. Sorry for the NFL analogy, but I find that cross referencing other well established sports helps to make sense of things sometimes... It still sucks for the jammer that expended energy passing unneccessary players, but that is why the other team would be issued the penalty; to somewhat compensate for the illegal procedure. The REAL compensation should come from the ref crew at an afterparty in the form of repaying a "Beer Foul" :D. LOL! Thoughts?

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Offline Cliquework

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Re: 6 point pass for an extra blocker or points in error?
« Reply #18 on: May 04, 2011, 09:38:00 pm »
The current ruleset is posted here in web form. Top left column.
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Offline Darkjester

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Re: 6 point pass for an extra blocker or points in error?
« Reply #19 on: May 04, 2011, 10:41:18 pm »
IYAAYAS!


Huah,

But onto topic.. There isn't a 'do over' in the rules. Yes the jam could/should have been called off, but if it wasn't and nobody noticed until it was already over, there isn't much point and it just needs to move on.
Hypothetically if we WERE to do a do over and then the team who scored points previously with the legal amount of players, didn't score any points the second time, we'd be doing them a disservice by making the jam redone.

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Offline Ammosurf

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Re: 6 point pass for an extra blocker or points in error?
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2011, 10:43:27 pm »
Yes, it's true. I am also a USAF Ammo troop. IYAAYAS!

AMMO!

Huah!
AMMO!

Offline Rogzilla

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Re: 6 point pass for an extra blocker or points in error?
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2013, 11:02:20 pm »
Necroposting a long thread.

In an NSO training session today, someone said they were told by a referee that there are times when 6 points can be scored in a pass. I told him I'd never heard of that. With the new rule set, is there still any chance that a 6 point pass could happen?
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Offline Shaun Ketterman

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Re: 6 point pass for an extra blocker or points in error?
« Reply #22 on: March 18, 2013, 12:21:01 am »
Yes it is possible.  A jammer could possibly be lapped more than once in a single scoring pass.

[rule]8.5.7 - Jammer Lap Point: If one Jammer completely laps the opposing Jammer, the Jammer will score one point each time the Jammer fully laps the opposing Jammer. The Jammer does not need to be on a scoring pass to score a Jammer lap point.[/rule]

8.5.7 shows that lap points are independant of scoring passes and happen each time a jammer is lapped.  A blocker cannot be scored on more than once in a scoring pass and as far as I know, an extra blocker in the jam over 4 is not elligible to be scored upon; she should be sent off the track or the jam should be whistled dead.
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Offline theMadStatter

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Re: 6 point pass for an extra blocker or points in error?
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2013, 03:19:08 pm »
Not only possible, but happened recently:

http://flattrackstats.com/bouts/28038/jams

Check out Jam 11

Offline Bluebeard

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Re: 6 point pass for an extra blocker or points in error?
« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2013, 08:15:01 pm »
Sorry to re-resurrect this ancient thread, but something is bugging me in this thread.

No-one, especially those saying no point for the extra blocker, mentions expelling the extra blocker for interfering in the game-play per 6.16.12(current rules, 6.16.4 then rules).

Is this reasonable, or what am I missing?

Offline Invader Jim

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Re: 6 point pass for an extra blocker or points in error?
« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2013, 09:10:15 pm »
Sorry to re-resurrect this ancient thread, but something is bugging me in this thread.

No-one, especially those saying no point for the extra blocker, mentions expelling the extra blocker for interfering in the game-play per 6.16.12(current rules, 6.16.4 then rules).

Is this reasonable, or what am I missing?

You need to consider why she is there.

[rule]No Impact / No Penalty
6.13.7 - Too many skaters on the track. The extra skater is instructed to return to the bench without stopping the jam.[/rule]

[rule]Major Penalty
6.13.23 - Forcing a jam to be called off due to too many skaters on the track. The penalty is issued to the Pivot in that jam. If there is no Pivot in that jam, the penalty is issued to the last non-Pivot Blocker to enter the track to the extent that the referee is able to determine who that skater was. If there is no Pivot in the jam and the referee is unable to determine the last skater to enter the track, the referee issuing the Illegal Procedure must penalize the Blocker on the track closest to the referee who calls the penalty.[/rule]

[rule]Gross Misconduct is defined as an indiscretion so serious that it justifies the instant expulsion of a skater, even on the first occurrence. The following egregious acts will be an automatic game expulsion, even if not during a fight, and can be punished as multi-game suspensions (see Section 7.4.2.2).

6.16.12 - Illegal interference in game-play by skaters or support staff not involved in the jam.[/rule]

Is she knowingly interfering or did she line up not aware she was an extra skater? You don't give gross misconduct for too many skaters. You give gross misconduct for an indiscretion so serious that it justifies the instant expulsion of a skater.

Offline SeerSin

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Re: 6 point pass for an extra blocker or points in error?
« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2013, 10:01:15 pm »
An expulsion for interfering in an active jam would be something more like a skater running off the bench and blocking opposing skaters 45 seconds after the start of the jam or grabbing the opposing jammer when she falls near their bench. In those cases the skater was not part of the active jam. An extra skater at the start is part of the jam, until such time as the refs send her back to her bench.

 

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